Carothers Performance Knives, Use & Abuse. Take 2

I don't personally see the appeal as CPK already makes a SDFK and I'd rather have that than a fat BFK.

Knives that pass JoeX's testing are cool, but are not really what I come to CPK for. Optimizing a knife for such testing feels like a race to the bottom, but that's just my two pennies.
 
marrenmiller said:
I don't personally see the appeal as CPK already makes a SDFK and I'd rather have that than a fat BFK.

Knives that pass JoeX's testing are cool, but are not really what I come to CPK for. Optimizing a knife for such testing feels like a race to the bottom, but that's just my two pennies.
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Well said. I don’t buy CPK because they are prybars. I buy them cause they aren’t.
 
Red Leader said:
Yep I hear ya :thumbsup: I think some of those people just follow certain tests and will hate on what they want to hate on. It is unfortunate. I would say that most really appreciate the testing, and do tent to extract the positives out of the specific knives being tested. Those individuals that offer nothing but negativity should be universally condemned. The exception may be with the China Cold Steels...those are just kinda fun to bash on😄
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Red Leader Red Leader

“Universally condemned” for not liking someone?! I really hope this is said in jest.

Oh heaven forbid people have a dissenting opinion. I know how comfortable some people feel in their echo chambers. Especially about the way Joe-M(oron) does his “testing”.

And by the way, I love my cheap Chinese Cold Steels. Easy to sharpen, take a beating and keeps on cutting.

Certainly there are things that can be gleaned from his videos. But I don’t put any stock in his endorsement.

I’m glad Nathan is happy with the results. Doesn’t mean I have to support masked wrecking ball.
 
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marrenmiller said:
I don't personally see the appeal as CPK already makes a SDFK and I'd rather have that than a fat BFK.

Knives that pass JoeX's testing are cool, but are not really what I come to CPK for. Optimizing a knife for such testing feels like a race to the bottom, but that's just my two pennies.
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But they don’t make a SDFK….

They did but now they don’t. Which is one thing I like about CPK. They do a run and then it’s over.

Sure I’d like to have all the choppers they did in the early days that I missed by being off BF for several years but they aren’t making them any longer because the run is over.

This also keeps the value of the older knives.

Think of it as a really nice ESEE 5.

BFBK for the win!
 
Gravelface said:
Or face being “universally condemned”…..

Sure seems that way.
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I don't condemn you.

It seems most of us current and former LEOs, coincidental or not, have a somewhat negative or dim view. I've tried to rein it in to the point where it didn't overwhelm the regular discussion.

I backed off from taking a stance once Nathan made it known that he was interested in the process, and actually participated. This is his and Jo's sub-forum, and to the extent it doesn't conflict with BF policy, there is no reason to impede the conversation, especially since it is primarily contained in this one thread...and should (hopefully) remain so.

It's not my cup of tea, I haven't watched the videos. I know what I can do with a Halligan bar and a sledge,...but, more importantly, I admire CPK's knives, almost as much as the owners of the brand.

No need for this to become a food fight. So let's not let it become one.
 
Certainly don’t want a food fight or a bunch of monkeys flinging poo at each other.

Really appreciate the words of sensibility. I understand it’s their forum, and as such don’t want to cause any disruption to the flow of things. As this is a great place. But differences of opinions can be had without the need for trying virtue signal for the condemnation of people with negative opinions.

Not everyone is going to love every knife, (they are crazy of course) and not everyone is going to love everyone here. But it’s vital that people can express their own opinion where people are giving their opinion, even if it doesn’t go with the flow. We are all here for the same love of Carothers and knives in general.
 
Gravelface said:
Or face being “universally condemned”…..

Sure seems that way.
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No worries man👍. I do think you might have misunderstood my comment. I'll say it loud and clear - that even if I 100% disagree with your words or sentiment, I support your right to say it. I was referencing internet trolls on the youtube videos who without hesitation tear people down for no reason. 100% different than a dissenting opinion. No equivalency. And I do think that that type of hurting people should be universally condemned (meaning the comments, not banning or silencing), or called out, because it is only designed to hurt others. And if I do it, I should deserve the same thing to happen. Slightly OT but it is in the vein...I know well and full that many people that express an extreme distaste of a certain blade destructor on youtube was due to a certain brand that was tested and some of the hurtful things said about the company and the people/relatives involved. I never saw these videos, but only artifacts here and there after the fact. I've also taken notice that those comments had been removed, and were replaced with videos that had apologies in them to those individuals, as well as an admission that said things said went too far. I get the bad blood, and maybe it is a little 'too little too late'. Like I said, wasn't around for it, so I wasn't ever in that fight, but from putting together the pieces I think I can understand why there was (and still is) a very cautious, or even callous response to this whole thing. I'm not here to change anyone's mind, and think everyone should be able to express their free opinion, although I do think (my opinion) is that the name calling earlier in this thread is childish and we can all have a rational discussion, with different opinions, without resorting to that.

I've heard it said before, and I do think its true, that if everyone here, including any and everyone involved in differing opinions, were put in the same room, we'd all likely get along great in person and grill and drink beer and talk knives. It's a great thing for me to remember, and a good filter to use when interacting with others here and elsewhere.

Regarding the knives, I support whatever decision will help Nathan and the crew to be successful, so whether it is 'time spent better somewhere else' or 'heck let's go for it', I'm down. The initial BFK showing was good, this FBFK showing was incredible, and I think that on the whole, the presence of these tests will be a great thing for CPK's future.
 
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Blues you’re pretty accurate on the LEO part. Now most people see my joined day on blade forum and think that I haven’t payed my dues yet to even comment. This is Mr. Carothers house and I’m not here to crap in his living room. Mr. Carothers opened the the floor to discuss, so we did no drama or hard feelings. Members comment on his selection of truck brands among other things without being and issue. There is no drama just a difference of opinions. Mr. Carothers finds value in sending Joe blades, good for him. Just like it hurt Carothers feelings, it hurt my feelings also, because I’m fully committed in the Brand. At work we don’t let our buddies walk off a cliff and thought it was a bad idea to send another blade. Even though the second blade took longer the outcome was the same. I might not have Mr. Carothers experience in knife making, but I know a Moron when I see one (Joe x). Time will tell what his value is. My opinion over the top testing like shooting knives that are borderline hatchets, to gain views on YouTube Thanks gravelface.
 
Those youtube videos bother me. I have been trying to put my finger on WHY.

A couple years ago my dad was visiting and I got to showing him my knife collection, and tried to explain why they were so unique. My dad is a life long laborer, craftsman, hunter and outdoorsman. He knows hard working tools and taught me "take care of your tools and they'll take care of you." The price of a CPK came up, and apart from a soft whistle of appreciation, I could tell he thought it was foolish.

What bothers me is JoeX's methods.

I showed my dad Nathan's video, chopping 16d nails and explaining why his knife tolerated it. My dad saw the absurd tests, chopping a cinder block, more nails, 90 degree bend tests, and the clear explanations along with the detailed pictures. He came to the conclusion that "that guy (a speaking of Nathan) is some kind of genius."

If I were to show him the Joe video my dad would come to the conclusion "that guy's epoxy ain't fully cured." and he would equally doubt my credibility for putting any stock in what the guy had to say.

I put no stock in the video because his methods and style are unhinged. I would not buy a knife he likes, nor would I avoid a knife he didn't like. Nathan's videos exude expertise and credibility.
 
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Joe-M, yes, moron, because he isn’t safe. He’s been a 1/16th away from severe injury or death numerous times. Some stupid kid out there is going to recreate shooting against a large stone from 8’ away and catch a ricochet to the dome. Is it that kids fault, sure, but maybe, just maybe if he hadn’t seen this cult like idol that people are ravenous to defend doing it, he wouldn’t have tried it. Now, I’m not into blaming the “video games” theory, but this guy is reckless and goes against EVERYTHING I’ve taught my children about gun and knife safety. Is it worth it for a few views when he almost caught that knife in the thigh. I’ve seen people bleed out from femoral wounds. Hell, I almost bled out from from shrapnel tearing my thigh open. Personally I don’t feel people should be supporting this, how’s it going to feel the day he does hurt himself with the knife you (fill in the blank, because many people send him knives) send him.

I just really hope he never included other people in videos and I would never want to be anywhere near this imbecile, with or without a knife.

Sure, it’s great watching your favorite knife get abused at someone else’s expense, but good grief Charlie Brown, I really hope there’s a better way to share our love and appreciation of blades with the world than this idiot displaying careless, reckless , irresponsible behavior.

Red Leader Red Leader , thank you for the time you took responding. I may have misinterpreted as a direct insult as it seemed I was one of the few in this thread who dislikes Joe-M. For that I apologize.
 
The tests themselves are not exactly perfectly scientific, but he doesn't purport them to be.

A destructive tester that controlled for variables better would probably be more useful, but probably not as interesting for the average viewer to watch.

If he claimed he was being perfectly scientific, then he would be held to certain standards that he might not want to be held to. He is not an underwriter's laboratory tester, nor does he want to be.

He's having fun, he's generating clicks, and he's not doing anything more dangerous than the jackasses on "Jackass", and at the same time an experienced viewer such as myself can watch these tests and honestly learn something about knives that he's testing. I have watched the tests and I have seen the knives fail and I have learned things that has changed my mind on some opinions that I'd previously held.

There's a value to that. I think we could all agree on that.

And it is not everybody's cup of tea. I think we could also all agree on that too.

While I would encourage lively debate, if you feel your blood pressure rising, be careful because you might be taking it too seriously. There are things to take seriously but I believe this is not one of those things.

Knife collecting is supposed to be fun, and creatures like Joe X add some spice to the soup that was missing.

Not everybody accumulates knives because they are knife collectors. I am not a knife collector, I am a knife consumer. And when I'm done with a knife, it is consumed. Most people here are not as hard on their knives as I am.

It's reasonable that my view on this would be different than someone else coming into this with a different appreciation for knives.

The reality is, he has broken more knives of more kinds than almost anybody on the planet, possibly myself included. That is a level of experience few people can claim, and that gives his opinions some credence. Due to the lack of scientific rigor, they are just opinions, but some opinions have more value than others, and I personally believe that his opinion about knives is coming from a place of experience that I can value.

If anybody here has a legitimate bone to pick with him it would be me. I sent him a knife with the hopes of demonstrating a CPK "survivor". And, while he does say in his video "this knife is a survivor", how many people watch an entire 50 minute video, and has also seen the other videos to understand context, to understand that the knife that I sent him was a "survivor". Most people are going to skip to the end and see the broken tip. He went out of his way to do that. But I'm not surprised, angry, or disappointed. (Okay, I am a little bit disappointed). But I knew what I was signing up for, so I feel no outrage about it.

As a serious maker, I am here to claim that I don't have a problem with Joe X, the videos that he is making now, or his methodology. It is what it is. And there is value to it. I'm aware there's some videos that were made a while back where he may have been a little bit unhinged, so I do understand the hurt feelings, but I'm just stating what I know from where I'm sitting at this point in time, Joe X is not a bad thing. In my opinion.
 
One thing I have learned

I have always been of the opinion that making a steel using a particle metallurgy process does not inherently improve that steel. I have always stated that the PM process makes certain high alloy steel better, and some very high alloy steel possible. But the PM process does not inherently improve the steel over a conventional melt.

However I have seen him break knives of similar alloy and heat treat quality that were not high alloy PM steel where one of the knives was a PM version of a relatively low alloy steel and compared it to the behavior of a conventional melt and I was surprised by what I saw.

I use PM steels but I have never claimed that the steels I use are better because it is a PM steel. But I'm beginning to think that perhaps it is possible that the PM process can actually improve a steel, and not just render certain high alloys possible.


My opinions, like my knowledge, evolves over time as I integrate new information. Like any sane person.

One does need to be careful about the garbage in garbage out problem when incorporating new information.

But any source of new information can be useful, when incorporated skeptically.
 
Joe x's test makes sense and may seem a little crazy.
But by doing so, he was able to test the limits of a knife by destroying it, letting us know what level of performance it really is at, and at the same time, the destruction process was able to show the problems in every aspect, providing some reference for subsequent optimization and improvement.
I admire him, his behavior is similar to a "pioneer". Nowadays, the performance of knives is basically overflow, ordinary people can not use the difference, but in his place, we can see the most realistic situation, so that we can be more rational and multi-angle to understand a variety of knife products!
 
Gravelface said:
Red Leader Red Leader , thank you for the time you took responding. I may have misinterpreted as a direct insult as it seemed I was one of the few in this thread who dislikes Joe-M. For that I apologize.
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No problem at all, and you are correct, it was not a direct insult at you - hopefully not an insult toward anybody! While I do still think the name-calling is just a catch-all for either 'I don't like...' or 'I disagree with...' and therefore see no purpose behind it, I know that many, many people don't like these types of tests and still more have a negative opinion of the individual in question and that is just fine. There is also a lot of history there I wasn't around for.

Regarding the safety aspect, I agree that there is a lot more he can do to stay safe, and it was quite a kind gesture for Nathan to send him the kevlar.

I do think that there is a different kind of understanding to it, the whole 'getting' of these tests, not to undermine the understanding of those that think it has no point. A few examples:

1- custom/small knife makers sending their blades in for testing/destruction. It exposes weaknesses in the design and geometry, and can offer another set of data from a different point of view

2- In some cases it has exposed a good/bad heat treat, as well as good/bad design. If we have a general consensus of how a knife steel is going to perform, and a knife performs absurdly lower than what is expected from the knife steel, we can learn something about the deficiency, either in steel or design.

3- useful information via large data collection. The tests are not scientific, but they are methodical. By and large, the knives go through a similar set of test practices to arrive at a conclusion. If it were 1 or 2 knives, the simple conclusion would be largely anecdotal, but after 300+ knives, there is some real and useful data, and the data for every knife tested becomes more valuable because it builds on the database and can offer a lot of useful comparisons.

4. Accountability - Some of his videos have done a lot to put accountability towards how some products are marketed, as some have not been accurate

Finally, if you are upset or angry about these tests, please direct all of it to me😂 I sent him the first one and kicked the snowball down the hill. However, I'm glad I did, and I'm grateful for where it landed. It has allow more people to see Carothers as a world class outfit, not just the knives, but the people behind them, and I appreciated that Joe saw that and highlighted it.
 
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Jackass wasn’t my cup of tea back in the day. In no way am saying there aren’t things to learn from his destruction videos.

But what he does is like taking a Corvette 3LZ off roading and rock climbing then bashes it because it performs like shit. “But I want to know what it’s capable of” is not a reason to break a knife by throwing a stone at it and tell people it’s shit when it breaks. Slapping it against an iron rod and stabbing a car tells what exactly about cutting geometry?

He “finds problems” where none exist.

Never mistake a lack of talent for genius.
 
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