Chopping unsupported wood?

[scdub]

“Most often, that kind of damage results either from poor chopping technique or from chopping through an unsupported twig or branch.”
~ From the article

Oh I almost peed laughing about damaging a knife from a twig. But then I looked at the picture and it all made sense.

Ha - great minds!

 

[Nismo17]

Yall probably don't know or care but I was the first guy to break a Junglas 2-
A simple knife in 1095 that is well made with a good ht foe the steel and intended use.

Breaking it was a NIGHTMARE for me and Justin Vititoe- so you have 2 200+ pound dudes with bad intentions and an 8lbs splitting maul and time-

The thing is never going to break from use in wood and 1095 is pretty bottom of the spectrum, and that's with a bte of about .040 which isn't aggressive but it isn't a slouch either.

Anyways, I see complaining that a customer was misusing a large knife that isn't a kitchen knife because they Chopped unsupported wood as disingenuous.

I assumed, correctly I believe, that that had never been an issue here and I'm glad of it.

I’ve used a Busse kitchen knife with convex zero edge to down 10+ trees 6-8” diameter.
And baton hard firewood

No issues

 

[Jack of All Blades]

Never heard about “unsupported wood” but this line from Knives Ship Free site posted above is hilarious:

“Most often, that kind of damage results either from poor chopping technique or from chopping through an unsupported TWIG or branch.”

Emphasis added.

Support those twigs boys!

That jogged my memory. I do remember a machete review of the bark river bravo machete, and other machetes where the “twig” thing makes sense.

When you have dead dried out trees, the broken branches and small twigs have been known to be very very hard, and have been known to chip or dent machetes (because they’re run a lot softer) so they use the spine of the blade to clear them instead.

Shouldn’t be any sort of problem for a Busse knife though. Maybe for a 55-57 hrc esee but this is speculation, something I don’t have experience in.

 

[Jack of All Blades]

Found a picture that kinda shows what I was thinking. These hard dried out “twigs” could be trouble for a thin machete edge.

 

[scdub]

That jogged my memory. I do remember a machete review of the bark river

And that just jogged MY memory of a big hubbub over someone getting refused warranty service for an edge rolling on a chopstick(???). Was that Bark River too?
This is all starting to make more sense…

 

[MolokaiRider]

As far as batoning a knife, while I do enjoy and use the technique, I can also give reasoning to the idea that resonance and vibration can cause damage to the edge, especially where the edge meets the plunge.

Adding in lateral stress can also potentially create edge damage, which can exacerbate failure.

Still fun and useful tho.

 

[zombieassassin]

I chop rocks out of the way with a Basic 10. Limbs and trunks shouldn't be an issue.
Trunks of cars I mean by the way

 

[dogboye]

That jogged my memory. I do remember a machete review of the bark river bravo machete, and other machetes where the “twig” thing makes sense.

When you have dead dried out trees, the broken branches and small twigs have been known to be very very hard, and have been known to chip or dent machetes (because they’re run a lot softer) so they use the spine of the blade to clear them instead.

Shouldn’t be any sort of problem for a Busse knife though. Maybe for a 55-57 hrc esee but this is speculation, something I don’t have experience in.

That has not been my experience... and I used to use almost exclusively a cheap, Lowes, Corona machete for 90% of my yard work. Green, dry, hardwood, softwood. Small dried twigs, big dried branches... it doesn't really matter. A machete works surprisingly well, and is surprisingly durable. There's a reason they are so popular in third world countries (IMO). It has only been recently (last decade) that I have moved to doing all my yardwork with Bussekin... because it was more fun.
The only time I have ever bent the edge on a machete was on a live cherry tree, when I tried to cut into a knot. Dented the edge... but the machete got through it eventually. And I hammered the edge out straight on a rock with a Plumb hammer. Then filed he edge back. They aren't elegant... but they work.
So I'm not buying any of this unsupported tree chopping BS. If you have a knife that chips out doing that, then you have a ***tty knife. I don't care if it is Bark River, Becker, ESEE. For Becker or ESEE, for certain, I would say it would be an anomaly. Bark River... well... my experience with them has been less than stellar. And I have a few.

 

[Cobalt]

I don't care how great a process any knife maker has, but anyone can put out an improperly heat treated knife or a knife that has a bad batch of steel. The problem comes when it is a consistent issue or when it is by design and manufacture. ESEE HT's their knives to a lower Rc than Becker. The beckers may cut longer, but the ESEE will be much more durable. Both being 1095 steel. There are plenty of youtube videos and pictures of people breaking knives batoning and chopping. But there are many more of knives doing this and not failing. It would be interesting to search per manufacturer for pics and videos to see how many fails during chopping or batoning can be found.

 

[Cobalt]

Is this machete supported or not supported?
Interesting video

 

[beachmaster]

I don't care how great a process any knife maker has, but anyone can put out an improperly heat treated knife or a knife that has a bad batch of steel. The problem comes when it is a consistent issue or when it is by design and manufacture. ESEE HT's their knives to a lower Rc than Becker. The beckers may cut longer, but the ESEE will be much more durable. Both being 1095 steel. There are plenty of youtube videos and pictures of people breaking knives batoning and chopping. But there are many more of knives doing this and not failing. It would be interesting to search per manufacturer for pics and videos to see how many fails during chopping or batoning can be found.

There is only one brand that I know that has yearly pictures posted constantly of breaks from "chopping unsupported supported wood" and it isn't becker or esee.

 

[beachmaster]

Is this machete supported or not supported?
Interesting video

Chopping into a nail on wood I wouldn't consider to be supported but semi supported as the material being cut is harder than the support which can cause movement that can be brutal on an edge but scrolling through everything else looks more or less supported.

If you take that same piece of metal however and stretch it and attach it at both ends and do the same thing and you will destroy stuff. For instance like the metal supports under really old wood ladders

 

[Cobalt]

Chopping into a nail on wood I wouldn't consider to be supported but semi supported as the material being cut is harder than the support which can cause movement that can be brutal on an edge but scrolling through everything else looks more or less supported.

If you take that same piece of metal however and stretch it and attach it at both ends and do the same thing and you will destroy stuff. For instance like the metal supports under really old wood ladders

Agreed.

 

[hydeinmind]

My wood is feeling a bit down and could use some support. Maybe it needs to call the support hotline? 1-800-SPTWOOD

 

[AntDog]

I have never, ever heard of this “unsupported” crap. The mentions of it must’ve been hiding really good in plain sight all these years.

 

[EngrSorenson]

I wouldn’t chop unsupported small, dry deadfall because that sounds like a great way to waste time and energy not getting much done; possibly getting whipped in the face and looking like an idiot. Maybe get to explain to the wife why your face is all scratched up after your fight with the end of a 3/8” branch.

The real problem here is who’s chopping free-standing, unsupported, small dry wood targets? Add some flex to it and chop more with the grain if you have no alternative. Or just break it with your hands because you’re a man. Limb branches where they grow from the trunk. Chop dead saplings close to the ground. Lay the small stuff against bigger dead fall and chop.

Forget about whether the knife can handle the task- ask yourself if it’s the right way to do it.

 

[EngrSorenson]

Unsupported wood? No comment, I"ll keep my jokes to myself....
I didn't know that about unsupported wood, but I have never seen damage from my Busse's hacking on that, even a tough piece of oak. (the bough underneath was actually the other section of the bough the knife is stuck in)
FBMLE vvv- Only dirty, no edge damage from this. The Oak was hard AF.
View attachment 2475894

if the target has a mass that is great enough that the object doesn’t move when it’s struck, it’s considered “supported”. The issue being described is what happens when the target moves as the knife enters it. The log that you have in that photo was probably big enough on its own that it didn’t move very much while you were hacking it.

 

[EngrSorenson]

That has not been my experience... and I used to use almost exclusively a cheap, Lowes, Corona machete for 90% of my yard work. Green, dry, hardwood, softwood. Small dried twigs, big dried branches... it doesn't really matter. A machete works surprisingly well, and is surprisingly durable. There's a reason they are so popular in third world countries (IMO). It has only been recently (last decade) that I have moved to doing all my yardwork with Bussekin... because it was more fun.
The only time I have ever bent the edge on a machete was on a live cherry tree, when I tried to cut into a knot. Dented the edge... but the machete got through it eventually. And I hammered the edge out straight on a rock with a Plumb hammer. Then filed he edge back. They aren't elegant... but they work.
So I'm not buying any of this unsupported tree chopping BS. If you have a knife that chips out doing that, then you have a ***tty knife. I don't care if it is Bark River, Becker, ESEE. For Becker or ESEE, for certain, I would say it would be an anomaly. Bark River... well... my experience with them has been less than stellar. And I have a few.

Sorry for all the posts, but this thread is instructive in many ways.

Your comments about machetes is accurate- they’re durable on purpose. The steel is simple and the heat treat is rather soft so the worst you would see is edge rolling. It’s by design.

I’d let our resident machete expert FortyTwoBlades weigh in here, but I believe machetes are mostly intended for rather soft, usually green vegetation- situations where the mass of the free standing target is low, but the material provides little resistance.

I use one fairly regularly and I have not had great luck on free standing dead branches. If I support the branch against something else, or lop it off at the trunk (which provides support) the machete does just fine.

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

Sorry for all the posts, but this thread is instructive in many ways.

Your comments about machetes is accurate- they’re durable on purpose. The steel is simple and the heat treat is rather soft so the worst you would see is edge rolling. It’s by design.

I’d let our resident machete expert FortyTwoBlades weigh in here, but I believe machetes are mostly intended for rather soft, usually green vegetation- situations where the mass of the free standing target is low, but the material provides little resistance.

I use one fairly regularly and I have not had great luck on free standing dead branches. If I support the branch against something else, or lop it off at the trunk (which provides support) the machete does just fine.

So, this is ultimately a little complicated and there's some truth to both sides.

Machetes when taken to properly thin geometries can and will occasionally exhibit damage on thoroughly-hardened dry blasty twigs and dead limbs jutting off of trunks, due to the small impact zone and high resistance creating a large concentration of force that causes the edge to buckle and yield as a result. However, this is only some kinds of wood in some kinds of conditions with some kinds of geometries and forces involved, and many machete patterns, including the most common ones, are intended to be able to chop hard, woody targets in addition to lush vegetation. Context, as always, matters a lot. But yes, it is possible (though usually uncommon) to damage a machete edge on unsupported wood.

Another case can be with lithe targets that grab and hold the edge at its initial point of impact but then flex and deflect, causing considerable side-loads on the edge. In very thin/very hard geometries, this can bust out "half moon" chips from a blade, or cause a lateral buckling in very thin/tougher blades. Most people in North America don't run machetes thin enough in the edge to ever experience any of these possible circumstances, though it also diminishes the tools' performance greatly. As cutting performance factors are increased in priority over resilience, these sorts of failures are more likely to occur, but are very often the fault of poor technique in execution of the cut, poor judgement in target selection, or bad luck (encountering conditions that could not have been reasonably predicted--them's the breaks!) But also it can be the fault of poor design or execution in manufacturing. In poor design, the geometry may not be well optimized for the context of use or average user skill level that it's marketed for, or there may be a failure to adequately disclose the best applications of the tool and its reasonable limitations. The blade may also simply have a poorly selected or executed heat treatment, or an actual fault in the steel, overly sharp transition angles that create stress risers, or other similar factors.

In conclusion, chopping unsupported wood is not inherently abusive, but there is abusive chopping. Much like batoning is not inherently abusive, but there is abusive batoning.

 

[Jaxx]

if the target has a mass that is great enough that the object doesn’t move when it’s struck, it’s considered “supported”. The issue being described is what happens when the target moves as the knife enters it. The log that you have in that photo was probably big enough on its own that it didn’t move very much while you were hacking it.

It fell from high up, & one end hit the ground. It was about a 50-55° angle resting against the tree it fell out of to the spot on the ground one end thumped in to. I chopped it in place. So it did move & vibrate more & more as I worked through it, & with increased flexing/bowing as I chopped the last third of it. I believe the tree is an Imperial Oak. This bough was pretty much cured on the tree until it finally snapped, no internal rot was visible where I was chopping. Maybe supported- def the hardest wood I've chopped with a knife.