Collectors vs. Purveyors At Knife Shows!

Maybe Sunday would be a good day to have some events such as a cutting contest and demonstrations. Those are just examples because I am not sure what events would work well to draw people at your knife show.
 
I figured I would jump back in to answer Les's question about where I have been...

On June 30, I took a new job. I moved to the state of Tennessee and began working for Eckerd Youth Alternatives. My role in the company is a wilderness education counselor. So, for 5 days a week, 24 hours per day, I live in wood floor tents with 10 dysfunctional teenage boys. Three of those days I have a co-counselor, the other 2 I am alone. I only have access to phone/computer my 2 days a week I am off work.

It's been very difficult to keep up with BFC and the knife industry in general, but I guess the bright side would be I am saving lots of money :)

I'll continue to check BFC weekly, and on the nights the computer will work at the time off house, I will try and drop by the chat room on mIRC.

On a happier note, I will be booking my hotel reservations for Blade in Atlanta very soon. I plan on taking care of it early, as I refuse to miss this event.

And to continue with this thread, I will be picking up some knives as well :)

This spring, I had talked with Mike Obenauf about a knife. We discussed the knife some more at Blade this past June. He told me his back log was getting longer, so I told him to make it for Blade 2004. This was a few months longer then the time he quoted to make it, but I enjoy having knives to pick up and show off to everyone at Blade.

So, I summary, I am still around. I wish I had more free time for BFC, but such is life. I'm working with kids, which has been my passion for that last few years. I'm really getting to see the difference a caring person can make in the lives of troubled kids. I'm teaching them a little about custom knives in the process. It's not every day a poor juvenile delinquent gets to use a stellite blade Carson folder in the woods :) So, I'll stay in the knife world. I'm just basicly forcing myself to limit my spending and focus primarily on the few makers I can honestly call friends. With not being able to follow and research as much as I would like, this will ensure I am still able to get knives that will mean a lot to me because they were made by friends.

Les, I'll be around when I can. See you in Atlanta in 2004!

JR
 
Jeremy.....SIR

Having done with "Vision Quest" what you now do
with "Eckerd", I know what's up, and I applaud
you.

One man CAN make a difference.

Russ Andrews
 
Jeremy,

What Russ Said. I have known two other councelors who do the same thing you do with troubled youths. Both have been impressive men. My hat is off to you!
 
Thanks Russ and Bailey.

This job is not an easy one, although it is at times very enjoyable. At other times, it is depressing nerve trying. I've been offered coaching jobs back in Oklahoma the last couple of months, but have decided to stay here for at least a year with these kids.

I've had sticks swung at my head, been charged at with axes, and even gotten bit. I've had death threats, threats on my family, and threats on my possessions (ie blowing up my truck.) I've also had hugs from kids who said they had never had anyone before me care about them and care about changing their lives. Often, that is from the kids who were the ones making the threats. When they see you aren't going anywhere, they tend to open up.

Dan, I will not be at the Tulsa show this fall. I am saving up my vacation days for a trip home in Jan. and for the Blade Show in June. The April show is a possibility, depending on the weekend it falls upon. If the Oct. show was the weekend of the 11th, I would probably give it major consideration, as I am off that entire weekend.

Back to the job, I enjoy being out in the woods with these kids. It takes them away from their comfort zone and gets them away from modern distractions. This allows them a better to chance to open up to their problems and issues and deal with them in a positive way in a safe environment.

I also enjoy showing them and talking with them about custom knives. My kids have seen and used knives from Kit Carson, Mike Obenauf, Brett Bennett, Wayne Hendrix, and Dan Farr. When I first let them use the knives, I never told them the cost of the knives. I simply had them use the hell out of the knives. I was, however, always cautious of the task they were using them for. I always ask the purpose of them borrowing my knife, as I don't buy $500 screwdrivers. They are learning an appreciation for knives in general, and also an appreciation for the craftsmanship and work that goes into making a custom knife.

I plan on buying some more small fixed blades this year in Atlanta, as these seem to be the best for carving and general purpose chores. Also, they are not too big to be intimidating. And yes, I will get their early and put in e-mails and phone calls to makers in advance to insure I can pick up a couple of pieces I want for my boys.

Also, if any makers reading this thread would be interested in making some small, very thin carving knives, please e-mail me. Keep in mind, it will take time for me to respond. Several of my kids have been getting into carving and doing some amazing things. I would like to get a couple of high quality tools to let them use. My co-counselor is an amzing artist and draws pictures of dragons and other items on walking sticks. The kids are getting into carving out the shapes based on the drawings and have made some awesome artwork out there. I would buy these knives and they would be kept in my possession of course, but I want away to basicly reward their hard work and their appreciation of knives. I may even give them to the kids on the day they graduate from the program.

I've killed enough bandwidth for now. I'm heading back to the woods tommorrow, so I'll check back in next wed. or so. Take care.

JR
 
Hey guys....

What Jeremy is doing is not just commendable, it's simply fantastic and hard work. I am dead certain he is making an impact on these young men to be the kind of boys we'd all be proud of. As a Youth advisor for my church teens and a coach of high school sports, I know a *little* about this, too.

That said, count me in for the cost of one of these little carving knives. Maker's have a hard enough time squeeking out a profitable living. I'm ready to pay for one and let Jeremy give it to his boys as a reminder to ALL about the friendships that we have even when we aren't physically there.

Any other of you guys in???

Coop
 
Jim, I'm in.
As a matter of fact, JR is coming up for a visit during one of his down times and I plan to let him help design one and then I'll make a few for him.
These are one me, but I'll do one with your name on it :)
 
Kit / Jeramy you can count me in too i wouldn't mind making a couple . Let me know what size/design you want. be glad to help .

Matt :)
 
The generosity is truely amazing!

I was carving with some of my boys this week, and mentioned the idea of picking up some good carving knives for them. They were all incredibly excited. The smile on their faces was worth it all.

I'm more then willing to pay for these. If the maker refuses, I want to at least cover materials and shipping.

Sorry to carry this thread off topic. I do appreciate all the support, and will e-mail some in this thread.

As of now, I would like to keep these pretty small for carving projects. Approximately 2" fixed blade of thin stock, good sharp point is a must. A good steel that is easy to maintain, such as 440C or ATS34. The handle material can be something relatively inexpensive as well, such as a cheaper wood or g10. No sheaths would be needed, as I will get some zipper cases to put them in for storage.

Once again, I truely appreciate all the support, and I know the boys do as well. And for you guys making the donations, I will make sure we get a group carving project underway to send to say "thanks."

You guys are amazing.

JR
 
I've responded to some parties in this thread via e-mail, as well as returning some e-mails from others. As I stated in e-mail, I am not looking for handouts and am more then willing to pay for the carving knives. Knowing the knife community like I do, I'm sure the makers will laugh at my offer to pay. This is just another example of the willingness to give and the chartible hearts of knife nuts everywhere. I go back to the woods tommorrow afternoon, and I'm gonna have the kids help me with some knife designs. I want this to be something they get their hands in and have a part of. So they can truely feel an appreciation for the hardwork makers do. Like I said, I've done nothing but save money since I've been here and wanted to buy these knives for my kids. I'm happy to pay for any part of the process.

I'll check in on the forums as time permits.

Also, if any knife nuts in the Tennessee area want to get together some time for lunch/dinner and knife talk, I sure could use some knife nut company. Spending 24 hours a day with dysfunctional teens makes you long for good quality conversation with others of the same interest.

JR
 
I have read every post(well skimmed some) in this thread. It is a subject that has caused me to change my knife collecting drastically.
As a custom knife collector of 30+ years(started with a Morseth from Russell that when Bob Dozier looked at it, he said that he made it in Russell's shop in the early 70's).
I have found that my enjoyment comes from the collaboration with the custom knife maker, even if it only consists of phone conversations about a standard blade.
I believe that many of the orders I presently have(I always follow up with a letter of intent) will not be filled. I believe the reasons are,1. increased demand in the world of custom knife collecting, 2. selling at shows, 3. selling to purveyors and 4. possibly customer preference.
I have decided to limit my purchases to a few knife makers with which I have enjoyed a favorable relationship over the years and will honor all committemnts to purchase that I have outstanding. In some cases I have contacted makers and reached consensus on order cancellation.
I do not begrudge any maker the $ that he can make by however he wants,I understand Econ 101(that's what they called it when I went to college)(if I don't, I can count on Les to set me straight( not meant as a derogatory statement, Les)) but when I cannot obtain a knife except by rushing to a table at a show or purchasing from a purveyor, there is no joy in that for me, a knife at any price is not worth it.
I certainly realise times change and that change is inevitable(I spent big $ to have physcologists teach that to my employees) but I too can change and my perogative is to not purchase in that manner.
I have purchased knives from a number of posters on this thread:
Bob Terzoula, excellent work, reasonable delivery time, custom work in that Bob made me a folder with 2.5" blade along with his ATCF.
George Tichbourne, stag carving set, reasonable delivery time and excellent customer relations.
Jerry Fisk, I called Jerry about a knife I had seen in a magazine article and he just happened to have one for sale, I have since ordered a Bowie from Jerry.
The makers that I will continue to purchase from are:
Corbet Sigman, I have a full skinner that Corbet made that is so perfect, you cannot believe that an individual could hand grind it, Corbet uses no pre cut blanks. My Sigman knives are the crown jewel in my collection.
John M Smith, a bowie maker second to none and his blades start as a hunk of steel or iron to be forged.
Greg Lightfoot, a tactical maker second to none, willing to try new ideas and an all around nice guy.
Bob Dozier, if there ever was a Dean of sharpness, Bob is it.
The other orders, some from makers who have posted on this thread, I doubt that I will ever see. I don't call makers with which I have orders to ask about when my order will be ready as I value their time. My expectation is that a phone call followed by a letter is sufficient. I expect to be put in order like anyone else and when my time comes, contatacted to send funds.
I certainly would like an 'Onion' or a 'Carson' but I doubt that I will be able to purchase from them. I don't have an order for an 'Onion', have absolutely no desire for a 'Mid-Tech' knife and Kit is so popular, that if a I ever see my order, I will be extremely happy.
The world of production knives has certainly benefited from the custom knife makers but collecting factory knives is like beer can collecting, not for me. I did purchase a CRKT M16 though!
I certainly don't believe that any maker will starve over my change in purchasing or that the economy will suffer but just wanted to present my feelings. If you read this post, thanks for doing so.-Dick
 
I find this to be a very interesting item that I found on the Oregon Knife Collectors Association website. It is posted about the huge OKCA show that is held in April each year. It sounds to me like they mean business.

Table holders that leave early have committed the one deadly sin against our organization. Leaving early constitutes not being there or covering your table during the stated public hours. People come to see a Knife Show and an empty or covered table is not part of what we advertised. Anyone that is not open for business during these hours is in violation of the terms of our agreement with the organization and those persons will not be allowed back into our Show.

Therefore when we advertise the hours of our Show, those are real honest to goodness "we are a Show" hours. Visitors to our Show should take comfort that they will see a complete Show no matter when they come.
Click to expand...
 
Now, that's a bit stupid. Should they stay at their tables when they don't have anything to sell?
 
Hi Keith,

Yeah they write that, but who enforces it?

I would bet at least a coke, when it comes down to it. Getting that check for next year superceeds the "Terms of Agreement".

You have to be at your table during business hours. How does the show take care of getting lunch to the table holders. What about using the bathroom, getting something to drink?

The "Terms of Agreement" are general at best and unrealistic.

Again, this goes back to an earlier post in this thread. If you expect me to be there until the very last minute of the show. Then the promoter(s) have to honor their unwritten part of the "Terms of Agreement". That is to say, it is up to the pomoter to put knife buying customers through the door till the very last minute of the show.

It has to work both ways.
 
Originally posted by Joss
Now, that's a bit stupid. Should they stay at their tables when they don't have anything to sell?
Click to expand...
Hello Joss,
Absolutely. I believe the guys who do sell out quickly are usually the stars of the custom knife making industry, as well as the show they're at, and are often the ones that a lot of people who attend these shows are there to meet. Even if they can't buy one of their knives right then, meeting one of these icons can be a thrill.

Most knifemakers don't sell out at the shows but the few that do are usually the attraction of the show for a lot of collectors IMO.
 
Originally posted by Les Robertson

Yeah they write that, but who enforces it?

I would bet at least a coke, when it comes down to it. Getting that check for next year superceeds the "Terms of Agreement".

You have to be at your table during business hours. How does the show take care of getting lunch to the table holders. What about using the bathroom, getting something to drink?

The "Terms of Agreement" are general at best and unrealistic.

Again, this goes back to an earlier post in this thread. If you expect me to be there until the very last minute of the show. Then the promoter(s) have to honor their unwritten part of the "Terms of Agreement". That is to say, it is up to the pomoter to put knife buying customers through the door till the very last minute of the show.

It has to work both ways.
Click to expand...
Les,
With respect to enforcing it, there shouldn't have to be "enforcement"!
People with ethics will govern themselves accordingly and do what they agreed to do. They don't need to be enforced! If they agreed to be there they should be there!

With respect to a knifemaker leaving his table to go to the bathroom or eat lunch , is this what you really believe that the show sponsor had in mind when those rules were adopted???.:confused:

With respect to your comments that a show promoter has somehow breached his agreement by not having "buying customers" attend the show, this is absurd.

I'll be willing to bet you a coke that there are absolutely no written or unwritten terms in any agreement ever written or verbal that a promoter is somehow responsible for making sure that "buying customers" attend the show and if they don't the knifemakers can get up and leave the show they agreed to be at.

I believe a show promoter has an obligation before the show begins to promote the show and try and give it as much publicity as reasonably possible. This is often done by him/her bragging about all the great knifemakers who will be there selling knives.
When the doors open, there isn't an obligation for the promoter to have buying customers show up at makers' tables.

EDITED for spelling.
 
RWS,

As a former show promoter then you know when a table holder signs an agreement, that is a contract.

Who enforces the terms of agreement...the promoter.

They write these things up to CYA. No, the promoter is not responsible for getting a table holder lunch or covering for them while they go to the bathroom.

However, if the people aren't at the table then the promoter may get complaints.

This thread has gone on so long you have forgotten what I have written in it.

That it is about the MONEY. Some show promoters let non-table holding dealers in early. Why? Because they buy knives. They buy knives they keep makers happy, makers come back, promoter contiues to make MONEY.

IF several big name makes sell out in the first hour of the show and then disapper from their table or leave the show early. Are they refused a table next year? No. Why? MONEY.

You don't keep out the makers that people want to see. Even though as you and others have stated over and over again that they will not have any knives for sale.

Promoters are in this to make money. Whether it is a club or an individual. If the show does not make enough money to pay the bills for next year then the show dies.

As a former show promoter how many shows can you put on and continue to lose money?

No, there is not written/unwritten requirement that the promoter supply paying customers for the show.

This is part of the reason for your angst of makers selling knives before you get to the show. There are no guarantee's from the promoter, so makers don't wait. When the MONEY is offered they take it.

Because the promoters are under no obligation to provide customers. The table holders (Regardless of the "Terms of Agreement") can come and go as they please. The only action that can be taken against a table holder is deny them a table for next years show.

I personally do not know of a single maker or dealer who has ever been denied admission to the next years show because they left early.

Shows are shrinking in size. Because there are so many shows it is tough to fill all of the tables. As such promoters are not going to turn down money from a table holder just because they left early.

Promoters understand that if you refuse a maker or dealer from coming to your show because of that reason. They will just go to another show.

Every show I do, come Sunday afternoon a large portion of the tables are empty. Im talking shows like the Blade Show and Guild Show.

Because I only live 2 hours from the Blade Show, I stay to the very end. Im here to tell you come 3PM on Sunday (show closes at 4PM) you could throw a greande in that room and have a tough time hitting a table holder or customer.

Most of the people who attend shows are part time makers or dealers. This means come Monday morning they have to be to their "real" jobs.

Are they going to sacrifice a days pay or possibly losing their job to stay at a show to the end on Sunday. Especially a show that has few if any customers? No.

Many shows, let people in for free for the last two hours. As they know a large portion of the table holders have already left or are in the process of leaving.

The reality of all this, is that it is a business. If the show doesnt warrant you staying to the end because you won't make any money....you leave.

If the promoters don't put knife buyers through the door (whether it is implied or not), table holders don't come back. Why, they didn't make any money.

If table holders dont come back, the promoter cant put on the show.

So what has happened among the Businessmen in custom knives is: The table holders stay as long as they can. The promoter is more than happy to get their check for next year.

And so it goes.
 
Les,
I understand how it goes and why it goes and that it will probably continue to go this way. The behavior of a lot of people and the economics of many market places are pretty much the same regardless of the market when the focus is solely on making money instead of focusing on the product from which the money is made.

You and I will probably never see eye to eye regarding shows because you spend most of your arguments telling everyone how it is while I spend all my time in the argument telling everyone how I think it should be.

Your absolutely right about how it is. It does boil down to making $$$.
However, making $$$ should be a byproduct of a businessmans effort not the product.
 
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