Collectors vs. Purveyors At Knife Shows!

Originally posted by Joss
Now, that's a bit stupid. Should they stay at their tables when they don't have anything to sell?
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Actually, yes they should. Even if it is just to be there for the people that want to visit and ask questions. They should bring a photo album with them and see if they can get some orders. The hot makers sell out in the first hour or two of a show. Does that mean they should then just pack up and leave. Who do you think most of the people have come to see?

As far as getting lunch and going to the bathroom is concerned, you have someone to look after your table for you during these times. If the maker were to leave it unattented he/she would likely end up having something stolen. If you leave early there is no one looking after your table, it is just empty.

Les, the problem with show promoters being able to guaranty you potential customers right until the end of the show is that people will not come if all the makers and dealers are packed up and gone. Many of whom leave just so that they will get home a little earlier. This has become such a regular occurrence that people no longer bother to go in the afternoon of the last day at anything other than the biggest shows. If I continually go to shows and find that during the last day many of the tables are empty, I am not going to go on the last day. Keep the place full od makers, dealers, manufacturers and collector displays and I will be there until the show is over.
 
Hi RWS,

Your right, I doubt we will ever agree. That is of course unless you start setting up at shows. There is the collector mind set of each show being Christmas morning and all of the toys they want to look at are there just waiting for them.

The reality of the situation for those of us setting up is "THIS IS OUR JOB". For those of us who are full time such as myself, this is what pays our bills. My reality is that of the business side of custom knives.

Hi Keith,

The solution to people leaving early is simple. With the exception of the Blade Show. Every other 3 day show out there needs to be 2 days. To include the Guild Show and both New York shows.

Last November the NYCK Show was 2 days. Everyone one was there to close on Saturday. The main reason was, at 5:45PM there were still customers making purchases. I sold my last knife 2 minutes after the show closed.

Additionally, I got to spend an extra night in New York and flew home at around 9am. I was home in time for lunch and to catch a foot ball game. Got all my knives cleaned up and put away. Answered a bunch of emails and even boxed up a few orders to go out on Monday.

This would be opposed to leaving NY at 6PM, getting home at 9PM. Maybe answering a few emails, catching some TV and going to bed.

The show last November sales wise was exceptional. Would it have been any better if we came back on Sunday? Probably not.

If customers know 6 months in advance the show is only a 2 day show. They can probably make arrangements to be there Friday or Saturday.

By having a 2 day show, you encourage those who would be there for all three days to make their purchase on Saturday. So more than likely any knives you were going to sell on Sunday, you sold Saturday.

For some of the smaller 2 day shows I would like to see them go to either a 1 day show on Saturday or be a Friday and Saturday show. With the show only being open from 6-9 on Friday and 10-5 on Saturday.

The reality is with so many shows and the Internet. That customers now have so many choices they don't have to attend every major show.

The other new reality is; that if you want the best selection you need to be there when the doors first open. As many have pointed out in this thread, failure to do so will probably cost you the knife you want from the "hot" maker.

This fact is not lost on those of us who set up. We know our best sales day at a three day show is Friday. Cut your sales in half for Saturday and cut it by 90% for Sunday.

Over the course of a three day show I will sell more knives off of my Internet site then I will on Sunday.

Bottom line, for me anyway is that Sunday is a dead day. It's best just to leave early and get a better jump on Monday.

Besides if you missed seeing me on Sunday, all you have to do is go to my web site!
 
Les, you are probably right about two day shows being for the best. This is something that should be looked at. My only hope is that exhibitors would not still leave early on the last day so that they can get home a little sooner.

I would really like to start taking in a few of the smaller shows in the Northwest US, as they are as close to my home as any knife show. I would not always be able to arrange my work so that I could attend on Friday and Sunday becomes an important day for me in these instances.

Maybe a person should look at only attending Blade each year, but if everyone did that, that would signal the end of the small regional shows. For someone that lives as far away from the shows as I do though, attending only Blade seems to make a lot of sense.

As you can see, I am looking at knife shows from my perspective. I am very far away from any show. It is a full day drive to the closest one in Montana or even the nearest Canadian show. I am not going to make the trip if it is unlikely that I am going to get to see knives and meet makers.
 
Originally posted by Les Robertson
Hi RWS,

Your right, I doubt we will ever agree. That is of course unless you start setting up at shows. There is the collector mind set of each show being Christmas morning and all of the toys they want to look at are there just waiting for them.

The reality of the situation for those of us setting up is "THIS IS OUR JOB". For those of us who are full time such as myself, this is what pays our bills. My reality is that of the business side of custom knives.
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Les, I know it's a real job for all of you and you guys have done a fairly nice one at that.

As an outsider to this business of selling these knives (i.e., I am a buyer/collector) I see things from my perspective. As a seller you see things from yours. These two seperate sets of views are very important for the health of the future of the knife industry, IMO.

This thread originally began as a whining complaint, by me, that knifemakers and purveyors should not deal at a knife show before the show officially starts. I still firmly believe that!

The thread later became an interesting discussion of other knife show dos and don'ts.

It is my belief that knife shows are very important for this industry, despite the fact that some dealers would rather take it upon themselves to sell all the knives for the makers instead, IMHO.

I also believe that some die hard collectors, such as myself, are becoming frustrated about certain habits of some folks at knife shows.

If these habits continue, it will have a negative effect for this industry in the long run.

Every industry known to man needs a certain level of organization and conformity among its members to succeed in the long run despite the common "every man for himself" mentality of the competetive individuals that make up that industry.

Les, you seem to believe that many of the habits of most knife makers, good or bad, are born out of their desperation to make ends meet. This is probably very true. However, it's as though "THIS IS OUR JOB" is the slogan adopted by many of them to argue against any type of change that might be better in the long term for your industry. IMO, these desperate views are short term and shortsighted for this, or any, business.

Knife shows are fun but could be better than they are right now.
 
Hi RWS,

Again, the reality of the situation is money, like it or not.

I don't know if you work for yourself or a company. Question, how long do you stay in business if your company has negative cash flow?

According to the Small Business Association 6 out of 10 business will close in the first 5 years. 8 out of 10 will close in 8 years.

So yes, for many of those people who set up at shows they are working on a very close margin. Most of the people in custom knives makers and dealers do this for one overiding reason...they LOVE custom knives. No one I know got into this to make a lot of money.

Yes knife shows are very important...they must be there are so many of them. Truth be told, there are too many of them.

Your comment of:

"Every industry known to man needs a certain level of organization and conformity among its members to succeed in the long run despite the common "every man for himself" mentality of the competetive individuals that make up that industry."

Apparently you don't know too many custom knife makers. As they are the exact opposite of that statment. More like mavericks or rogues who would rather strike out on their own than conform.

Want proof, look at the current state of the Knifemakers Guild.

They have or had jobs where their industry does or did require this certain level of organization and conformity among it's memebers. They grew tired of that. They wanted to do what they wanted to do, when they wanted to do it.

This is why so many people start their own small business. So they can be the boss!

Those who succeded did so because the did what was best for their business and their clients...not the industry.

If they don't do whats right to make their business successful, they go out of business. The Industry could care less if you make it or not. A few of your friends in the industry may miss you at shows, but how much money are they going to lend you to keep going. Yep you guessed it $0.00 Why? Because they are working to keep their business going. Also, quite frankly you may be a friend but you are also a competitor. So if you leave for whatever reason, it increases my chances of being successful.

First and foremost the makers have to what will keep them in business.

Advertising dollars and knife shows will be the first things that makers cut back on.

There is a show held every two years in San Diego (it is this year). Phil Lobred puts on the Art Knife Invitational. No knives are sold before the show, all table holders stay to the end of the show. Every maker there is world class and most collectors would love to have any one of the knives they bring to the show.

The cost for you to get in is $125.00

The Show is 4 hours long.

The knife makers sell about 95% of the knives they bring.

After that you are invited to dinner.

Being that you are in CA. You should take a trip to this show.

There are the type of shows you are looking for. The question is are you willing to pay for the privilage of attending that show?
 
Hi Keith,

If your going to have to arrange to travel to a show, the Blade Show is a great one.

Make sure to get there on Thursday.

I understand the collectors perspective. As I still am in the same situation in some cases. Take the Art Knife Invitational Show. An incredible show.

However, it would take me 2 hours to drive to the Atlanta Airport, 5 - 6 hours to fly there. It is a show that I can't set up at. It is a show that only if I have my card drawn out the bowl do I get a chance to purchase the knife. Even if my name is pulled, it may not be the knife I want.

So all the expenses added up would be around $1,000. With a pretty good chance of coming home empty handed.

On the plus side, many of the makers at that show attend the East Coast Custom Knife Show in New York in March. Of course most if not all of their knives were sold on Thrusday night or Friday morning to those darn "COLLECTORS". You know the types, the onese who come in on Thursday, take the maker out to dinner, then get a private showing in their room and buy all of their knives!:D

Even I don't get a shot at them.

Let alone you or RWS! :D

I know the Candian Guild is trying to put on a show in Calgary (don't know how far away that is). Perhaps if you contacted them, and told them you would like to help setting up the show. They would do one in Western Canada. A lot of the makers from Canada went to a show they had in Alaska last year.

Maybe you could get involved, perhpas become a promoter.

But if you can, at least one time try to get to the Blade Show. You would have a great time.
 
Originally posted by Les Robertson
Hi RWS,

According to the Small Business Association 6 out of 10 business will close in the first 5 years. 8 out of 10 will close in 8 years.

Your comment of:

"Every industry known to man needs a certain level of organization and conformity among its members to succeed in the long run despite the common "every man for himself" mentality of the competetive individuals that make up that industry."

Apparently you don't know too many custom knife makers. As they are the exact opposite of that statment. More like mavericks or rogues who would rather strike out on their own than conform.

They have or had jobs where their industry does or did require this certain level of organization and conformity among it's memebers. They grew tired of that. They wanted to do what they wanted to do, when they wanted to do it.
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Les, this is an interesting statistic. I wonder if there is any correlation between this 80% failure rate among small businesses and this rogue, non-conformist mentality you refer to?
Doggone les (I sound like Jethro :D), even the cut throat Mafia has organization!
Those who succeded did so because they did what was best for their business and their clients...not the industry.

The Industry could care less if you make it or not.
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It's your competitors that could care less if you make it or not. In fact, your competitor hopes you get sent to Iraq!
However, You and your industry benefit greatly if you succeed!

Yes knife shows are very important...they must be there are so many of them. Truth be told, there are too many of them.
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Quote of the day from a dealer! :D

EDITED TO ADD:
Les, please don't take any of these arguments personally. These replies by me are in fun and at times somewhat serious but never out of anger.
You do have a great reputation and I hope to get to meet you someday.
 
Originally posted by Les Robertson
I know the Candian Guild is trying to put on a show in Calgary (don't know how far away that is). Perhaps if you contacted them, and told them you would like to help setting up the show. They would do one in Western Canada.
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Thank you very much for this information, Les. I had no idea that the CKG was considering putting on a show in Calgary. That would only be a three hour drive. I will contact them tomorrow and see just how serious they are about this show?
 
I have watched this thread for a couple days and really debated on whether or not to chime in.

I would like to encourage makers to consider the following question.

Are Shows important to your business or not?

If they are I personally would encourage you to refrain from selling to dealers before the show starts and spend as much time as possible at your table even if you have sold out. Perhaps you could have a couple examples of your work that are not for sale and some pictures so that you can take orders. Maybe you will just have the opportunity to talk to new friends but please try to stay.

I would also encourage dealers to follow Mr Robertson's expample. Talk to the makers offer to buy specific knives if they haven't sold by the end of the show. Perhaps order a similar piece to be delivered later. But please give the collectors that are paying to see the show the opportunity to see and perhaps purchase directly from the maker. For many collectors that personal interaction with the maker is more important than any other aspect of the knife.

I will not ask makers not to sell to regular customers before the show. Those customers have supported you and deserve some preferential treatment. But I would encourage you to save something for the show.

I have to agree with RWS if shows do not provide us with the opportunity to meet the makers we are interested in and purchase knives we are interested in we will not pay to attend.
 
Originally posted by SDouglas
I have to agree with RWS if shows do not provide us with the opportunity to meet the makers we are interested in and purchase knives we are interested in we will not pay to attend.
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I guess when you come right down to it, from the customer/collector perspective, that just about says it all.
 
If this has been posted, please accept my apology. There is another show that the maker or purveyor, cannot sell until the show opens. That is the Solvang Knife Show, held by Grace and David Harvey, the last weekend in April each year. Only 60 tables, but all tables have great knives by top makers.

While I am here I will mention one of my pet peeves about knife shows. That is, people without show tables, entering the show early before it opens and buying. The promoter or table holders give them a pass for early entry. After paying $1,200-$1,400.00 (New York) for two show tables, it concerns me greatly to have this competition buying. I figure early buying privileges are part of the high table fee that I am paying.

Best regards,

Rhett Stidham
 
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