Common sense knife control?

[David Mary]

When did turn into a firearms forum?

A discussion like the perception of knives as weapons, and thoughts on controlling them through policy, can hardly exist in a vacuum where firearm analogies and anecdotes don't have a part. With all due respect to scdub 's request to leave firearms out. Sometimes overlap is required in some discussions for people to be able to fully express their points.

 

[rje58]

Not exactly. Law enforcement will be called, and will have to determine the potential danger to the public peace. That in itself is already a problem for everyone. And a spear is more attention grabbing than a knife, and more alien to the environment as well. Much more likely to be called in than a five or seven inch open carried fixed blade. Officers show up and could argue its imposing size and high potential lethality are liable to cause panic and that this creates a situation dangerous to the public peace. Not to mention other circumstances such as behavior and other things that could indicate danger.

The same argument would be much weaker against an open carried knife. But in the end, if officers judge that it poses a threat to the public peace, you're going through the ringer, regardless of the outcome.

Even if it is not intrinsically illegal to carry a weapon, even one for self defense, I agree that the outcome of doing so may very well be as though it were illegal, if the other circumstance around it did not make it so already.

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding what you are saying, but it sounds to me as if you are saying that the laws are vague and subjective, and that, in the end, the law will be whatever law enforcement, the prosecutor and the judge decide it will be, rather than having clear laws that are easily understood, and adhered to - or broken.

 

[David Mary]

I am saying that individuals should know what the law says so they can make their conduct conform to it. Canadians are not prohibited from open carrying weapons (except those weapons which are explicitly prohibited from being carried and/or owned). Canadians are prohibited from carrying them concealed, or for a purpose dangerous to the public peace. So if someone wants to risk openly carrying a weapon in Canada, they better have a good way to rebut or forestall the presumption that it is for a purpose dangerous to the public peace. I don't carry weapons because I don't want the hassle (and they have never been necessary to me in all my time in Canada anyway).

 

[Bob Denman]

Would it be wrong to offer coffee and donuts to the LEO'S that respond?

 

[David Mary]

No, but don't expect them to take it. They go into every encounter knowing there is a possibility of a fight... or poison. Maybe offer them Timmy's gift cards. But after the encounter is concluded I think.

 

[Bob Denman]

Cool... that means more coffee and donuts for me!

 

[eveled]

Knives and guns are tools.

If someone killed someone with a hammer or a chainsaw or a screw driver nobody try’s to ban hammers, screw drivers or chainsaws.

Someone kills someone with a knife or a gun. They want to punish everyone else by taking away their knives and guns. It’s complete stupidity.

We have laws against murder, assault, robbery already. Why do we need weapons laws?

 

[Triton]

I spent a lot of hours in shooting ranges as a child and young man, put a lot of rounds downrange. I never shot a wall or baffle, but there were always nicks and holes in them. I hope the people who can't control their muzzles well enough to hit the backstop aren't the ones armed out in public, but you never know. I have no problem with a competent shooter carrying a gun, the question is who gets to decide what the criteria are. Training would be a nice one, but it seems that we are throwing that one out.

I prefer to be polite in general, not just to the armed people. If the reason people are being nice is that breaking a societal convention could lead to sudden death, that's not politeness, that's fear.

In a perfect world the good guys would all shoot straight but we don’t live in a perfect world. I’ll still take my chances with armed good guys rather exclusively armed bad guys. Nor despite the dramatic increase in carry permits has there been a correlated increase in vigilantism. My belief is that is because most people getting gun permits are responsible adults purchasing firearms for self defense and recreation just as the founders intended.

As has been noted previously weapons do not have a causal relationship with crime and it seems counterproductive to restrict the law abiding because of the actions of the criminal.

 

[Zookie]

“Give how violent our society has become”

Wait as far as the US goes it’s safer than it’s ever been.

 

[DocJD]

I know that, it's the same idea that's been bouncing around forever. The problem is the one's who think they are John Wick, shoot like Barney Fife, and lack the judgment to go unarmed if they are going to drink alcohol. That's not even touching on the joy that is racial profiling or the darker side of vigilantism. People need training to hit the target and education about when NOT to shoot, or they are just as much a problem as the thugs. There was an incident when I was in college with a foot chase in a residential area of an idiot by 4 police officers. He turned with a gun, and three of the police had a line of fire, one was slightly behind. Those three hit him twice, nonlethal, in the shoulder and leg. They also hit 2 houses, a couple of cars, and a boat. Alaskan cops get plenty of training and lots of shooting range time, but throw some exertion and adrenaline in the mix with a short barrel and look out. I don't want to be the backstop.

Stupid , crazy , grossly incompetent etc. individuals are the problem . Weapons are NOT .

There are tons of terrible , lethally dangerous, drivers out on the roadways . So...outlaw motor vehicles is the solution ?

 

[scdub]

Stupid , crazy , grossly incompetent etc. individuals are the problem . Weapons are NOT .

There are tons of terrible , lethally dangerous, drivers out on the roadways . So...outlaw motor vehicles is the solution ?

Just wait Doc. I hope I’m wrong, but I can easily imagine a future where our great-grandchildren will have to make a very difficult choice. A) Never carry a knife/weapon or take control of a large/dangerous vehicle, or B) Join the military or law enforcement.

Sometimes overlap is required in some discussions for people to be able to fully express their points.

Yes for sure - I mostly didn’t want this to become a 2A thread and get shut down. I’m a Firearms Instructor so I’m certainly not offended if they come up…

 

[DocJD]

A) Never carry a knife/weapon or take control of a large/dangerous vehicle, or B) Join the military or law enforcement.

C) Become a criminal and/ or revolutionary . D) Be one of the elites that don't have to abide the laws they make for the lowers .

 

[BitingSarcasm]

Stupid , crazy , grossly incompetent etc. individuals are the problem . Weapons are NOT .

There are tons of terrible , lethally dangerous, drivers out on the roadways . So...outlaw motor vehicles is the solution ?

That's the kind of black and white thinking that's gotten us into this mess, this is not a binary equation. The tired old whine "but what about the motor vehicles" is such an old saw that it has no "gotcha" left. We have driver's licenses, laws about who can drive what kind of vehicles, laws about vehicle safety, insurance requirements, speed limits.... and people still die because of stupid mistakes, gross incompetence or negligence, or just plain bad luck. It's not a perfect system because people are involved, but it's the system we have and it evolves to incorporate changes in technology and law. Show me a car you can carry in your pocket that you can use to injure 13 people in a bar and maybe the comparison would be apt.

 

[Skar]

Knives and guns are tools.

If someone killed someone with a hammer or a chainsaw or a screw driver nobody try’s to ban hammers, screw drivers or chainsaws.

Someone kills someone with a knife or a gun. They want to punish everyone else by taking away their knives and guns. It’s complete stupidity.

We have laws against murder, assault, robbery already. Why do we need weapons laws?

Guns are really not tools imo.
I'm all for gun rights, but there is little to be done with a gun other than fun (target shooting) or hunting/defense.
If you use a gun for getting your car started I would like to know how.

I agree that most of these issues arise from loss of morals and excuses.
I do not believe any regulation will help the situation.
Tighter restrictions appear to make violence worse.

 

[benchwarmer380]

Guns are really not tools imo.
I'm all for gun rights, but there is little to be done with a gun other than fun (target shooting) or hunting/defense.
If you use a gun for getting your car started I would like to know how.

I agree that most of these issues arise from loss of morals and excuses.
I do not believe any regulation will help the situation.
Tighter restrictions appear to make violence worse.

By definition, a gun is a tool used for self defense. Though it has other uses like recreation.

 

[eveled]

You can drill holes with a gun.

 

[benchwarmer380]

That's the kind of black and white thinking that's gotten us into this mess, this is not a binary equation. The tired old whine "but what about the motor vehicles" is such an old saw that it has no "gotcha" left. We have driver's licenses, laws about who can drive what kind of vehicles, laws about vehicle safety, insurance requirements, speed limits.... and people still die because of stupid mistakes, gross incompetence or negligence, or just plain bad luck. It's not a perfect system because people are involved, but it's the system we have and it evolves to incorporate changes in technology and law. Show me a car you can carry in your pocket that you can use to injure 13 people in a bar and maybe the comparison would be apt.

I would posit that vehicles are arguably more dangerous than knives or guns and it makes sense that the privilege of their operation deserves further consideration to be allowed.

No, there is not a car you can carry in your pocket to harm a dozen people at a bar. Yet you can ram into patrons on a patio or drive into the building and have a similar outcome. Those would be either grossly negligent acts or predetermined acts of violence.

To do so with a knife or gun can only be a predetermined or in the moment conscious act of violence.

You can't accidentally stab nor can you accidentally shoot 12 people.

All it takes with a car is one momentary lapse of judgement or attention while behind the wheel and the possibility of killing a dozen people is very real. A split second.


Prohibiting items sounds all well and good. Until the real world occurs and one realizes that the folks that are the reason for the legislation won't give a crap what they can or cannot have when they are intent on committing a much more heinous crime anyhow.

 

[DMG]

That's the kind of black and white thinking that's gotten us into this mess, this is not a binary equation. The tired old whine "but what about the motor vehicles" is such an old saw that it has no "gotcha" left. We have driver's licenses, laws about who can drive what kind of vehicles, laws about vehicle safety, insurance requirements, speed limits.... and people still die because of stupid mistakes, gross incompetence or negligence, or just plain bad luck. It's not a perfect system because people are involved, but it's the system we have and it evolves to incorporate changes in technology and law. Show me a car you can carry in your pocket that you can use to injure 13 people in a bar and maybe the comparison would be apt.

If I am willing to break the law and have a few bucks, I can buy a car without registration and drive it without a license. If I am going to use it to run people over, I don’t need any paperwork or have to follow any rules. And I can damn sure run a car or truck through the wall of a bar or Hit people in a parking lot.

Almost anything can be a weapon if the person wielding it is evil. After WW2, bomb factories started making fertilizer for growing food. It didn’t require many changes.

 

[DMG]

Guns are really not tools imo.
I'm all for gun rights, but there is little to be done with a gun other than fun (target shooting) or hunting/defense.
If you use a gun for getting your car started I would like to know how.

I agree that most of these issues arise from loss of morals and excuses.
I do not believe any regulation will help the situation.
Tighter restrictions appear to make violence worse.

Maybe not fix a car with a gun but you can start it with ammo.

 

[Skar]

To be fair, it's a tool like a playground is a tool for children to play on.
A tool in my mind should be used in work to perform repairs or daily living.

Other wise a any thing is a tool, takes away from the point of saying a drill or knife is tool.
Especially considering the only real function of the particular tool is destroying the application ( trying to make it sound nice).

I would like to keep guns available but realistically they should be placed under recreational and hunting. I would say a description of a tool is not a strong case.

Knives can be used every day for eating, unpacking etc.. They could stand the description as a tool.