Full tang not necessarily stronger tang.

[danbot]

What about files? Or screw drivers? Stick tangs can be plenty strong and full tangs can break.

Ever batton with a file?
But, yes it is true that design and construction will determine the limits of "hard" usage. A partial tang knife, if done right has very little chance of failing with normally intended use.

 

[PirateSeulb]

Nobody has made that conclusion.

is that not what the thread title and your first post imply when it says...

In fact a partial tang of a softer steel can in fact give you a more robust knife the a monolithic super steel full width full length tang.

Maybe I misunderstand the message but between the thread title and that line of the opening post I feel just in believing that the conclusion was the thinner tangs were better.

 

[I Have A Knife]

Well, basically all you do with chisels is whacking them with a hammer and they're stick tang too. I think the line between stick and full is anyway a bit difficult to draw.

But if full tang means exposed tang, as a Northener I can tell you that one definitive advantage of hidden tang is that you can actually hold the knife in the winter without freezing your hand. That's why our knives were never with an exposed tang. Some traditional knives have metal in the handle but they were considered decorative knives.

Any knife with metal in the handle is a summer-knife for me, and as such I have no use for them.

I don't agree with the idea that traditional knives in the North were made the way they were made to save materials, otherwise the decorative knives would have had exposed tang to show off status. The Northern knife is the way it is because that is the most functional form for the environment.

Basically a Northern knife is what it is because lack of features.

 

[stabman]

Well, basically all you do with chisels is whacking them with a hammer and they're stick tang too. I think the line between stick and full is anyway a bit difficult to draw.

But if full tang means exposed tang, as a Northener I can tell you that one definitive advantage of hidden tang is that you can actually hold the knife in the winter without freezing your hand. That's why our knives were never with an exposed tang. Some traditional knives have metal in the handle but they were considered decorative knives.

Any knife with metal in the handle is a summer-knife for me, and as such I have no use for them.

I don't agree with the idea that traditional knives in the North were made the way they were made to save materials, otherwise the decorative knives would have had exposed tang to show off status. The Northern knife is the way it is because that is the most functional form for the environment.

Basically a Northern knife is what it is because lack of features.

My hands freeze all winter long no matter what sort of handle the knife in them is.
That's what gloves are for.

With gloves, it does not matter much...unless perhaps it is an all metal handle (I don't use a brass handle walking stick in winter due to it getting cold even through gloves).

 

[DrFish]

Theres a huge difference between arguing:

"Partial or stick tang knives/tools can be as durable as their full tang equivalents in normal or foreseeable usage"

and arguing:

"Partial or stick tang knifes/tools can be stronger/more robust than an full tang equivalent"

I won't argue the first one. Full tangs are overkill for most use. There are genuine reasons including weight or expensive material usage to use a partial or stick tang in a tool/weapon. A properly made tool with a partial or stick tang should not be failing in normal use or abuse.

The second argument, however, is dead wrong. Its just plain physics. Given the same materials, a thicker rod is stronger than a thinner one. There's no way around it. We run into this same misconception every time the concept of blade fullering comes around again and someone starts claiming that cutting fullers into a blade makes it stiffer than it was without the fullers, and then then start citing I-beams in construction as an example. It's just dead wrong. If you take a full tang knife, cut away material and make it into a partial or stick tang knife, then test it to destruction, the full tang will win.

Now is a full tang necessary? Is it worth the weight and expense penalty? Is it worth tradeoffs in balance? Those are valid questions. But you absolutely cannot say that removing material from something will make it stronger or more robust. Lighter, yes. Better strength to weight ratio, yes. Stronger? No.

 

[Houlahound]

But you absolutely cannot say that removing material from something will make it stronger or

What if the tang is not necessarily the same material?

That is the question....for example building a softer tang than the harder blade. Historically thats how some knives & swords were made. The other question that is being ignored is most breakages occur in the blade not the tang. Which makes physics sense if you consider where abusive impact occurs.

 

[danbot]

What if the tang is not necessarily the same material?

That is the question....for example building a softer tang than the harder blade. Historically thats how some knives & swords were made. The other question that is being ignored is most breakages occur in the blade not the tang. Which makes physics sense if you consider where abusive impact occurs.

The problem with making a mild steel tang is that it can bend and split the handle material or can break at the weld.
If most breakages occur in the blade, then it would seem that most tang construction is strong enough for it's purpose.

 

[DrFish]

What if the tang is not necessarily the same material?

That is the question....for example building a softer tang than the harder blade. Historically thats how some knives & swords were made. The other question that is being ignored is most breakages occur in the blade not the tang. Which makes physics sense if you consider where abusive impact occurs.

If the tang is a softer material than the harder blade, then it won't be as strong as the full tang. It will bend under forces that the harder material would not bend at.

You can perhaps argue that you would want a more shock resistant material for the handle area, but that can still be accomplished by not hardening the handle as much as the blade which avoids the problem of having a joint between blade and tang of dissimilar materials.

Its just physics. You can't make a smaller cross sectional area of either the same material or a weaker one stronger than a larger cross section.

The point about most breakages happening in the blade is precisely because of this. The impact is at the end of the blade and the thickness of material there is the least. It's the weakest point.

You can make the argument that given those circumstances a full tang is not necessary (and frankly in most cases it absolutely is not), but you cannot make the argument that the partial tang or stick tang is going to be stronger than the solid piece would be, because that's just not possible. Historically mosts swords were made with stick tangs because steel is a valuable resource and for design and balance issues. It wasn't because they were stronger.

If you saw a mace or a hammer and they put a stick tang on it, would you think it was stronger for it?

 

[Houlahound]

A lot of great design thinking type comments, I am glad I started this conversation. I learned way more than planned.

 

[WillB]

What about files? Or screw drivers? Stick tangs can be plenty strong and full tangs can break.

No one claimed otherwise, but all things being equal more steel = stronger. This does not seem complicated or controversial conclusion to me.

 

[WillB]

You can make the argument that given those circumstances a full tang is not necessary (and frankly in most cases it absolutely is not), but you cannot make the argument that the partial tang or stick tang is going to be stronger than the solid piece would be, because that's just not possible.

Not sure why/how so many seem to have difficulty "getting" that reality. Water is wet and all that.

 

[eveled]

No one claimed otherwise, but all things being equal more steel = stronger. This does not seem complicated or controversial conclusion to me.

valid points for sure.

I guess the question is if it needs to be stronger and if it is worth the trade off in weight and balance and comfort.

I just hate when people condemn a knife because it is not a full width full length tang. They are missing out.

this obsession with full tangs is fairly recent. I think it is from batoning wood which is now the gold standard of knife toughness.

I’m not batoning with anything but a froe.

 

[herisson]

[Not sure why/how so many seem to have difficulty "getting" that reality. Water is wet and all that.]
Because often in reality it doesn't work straightaway like that. I mean the equation "more steel = more strength" is a bit delusional.
Eventually, it's a matter of design : a stick tang with a well done transition (which dissipates stress) from blade to tang will be insanely strong. A full tang with a misplaced hole for riveting the scales or the guard will have an inherent weakness. I'm not actually worried about it, I like both. But I do prefer the light weight and the balance of a stick / partial tang knife.

 

[Angus McGunnigle]

Any knife, when designed and built properly, will do what it is meant to do. My SAK Executive is probably not the best choice for cleaning trout, but I guess it would do it. My Becker 7 is a bit of overkill for opening mail at work, but it would do that.
Match the tool to the job.

 

[marcinek]

Well, basically all you do with chisels is whacking them with a hammer and they're stick tang too.

Except you dont apply stress to a chisel the same way you apply stress to a knife. The chisel whacking is parallel to the length of a chisel's tang and doesn't apply the same stress to the tang. Knife stresses are perpendicular to the tang/blade join, and, hence, are an entirely different thing.

 

[herisson]

And here we can totally agree ! That's why a knife's "strength" is directely related to its strength at the transition from blade to tang, that's where the highest stress happens (vertical or horizontal). And this is a matter of design, not a matter of mass of steel. Some (flawed) full tangs have fared poorly, some (proven) stick tangs have amazed (Mora, the old scout knife...).

 

[tim37a]

DrFish and WillB are completely correct and anyone who disagrees with them has his or her head up their ass. Period. End of discussion. Move on to the next subject, please.

 

[DrFish]

[Not sure why/how so many seem to have difficulty "getting" that reality. Water is wet and all that.]
Because often in reality it doesn't work straightaway like that. I mean the equation "more steel = more strength" is a bit delusional.
Eventually, it's a matter of design : a stick tang with a well done transition (which dissipates stress) from blade to tang will be insanely strong. A full tang with a misplaced hole for riveting the scales or the guard will have an inherent weakness. I'm not actually worried about it, I like both. But I do prefer the light weight and the balance of a stick / partial tang knife.

Fully agree with this. If you take a full tang blade and skeletonize the full tang then, well, it's gonna have weaknesses. If you drill large holes in comparison to the cross section at that point it's gonna be weak. If there are stress risers in the design its gonna be weak. If you make a stick tang knife where the "stick" part has a greater cross sectional area than a "full tang" knife it may as well be a full tang. Maybe call it a "tree trunk" tang. It's all a matter of good design when it comes down to it.

Notoriously bad example: The multi-part partial/stick tang of the original run of Phrobis bayonets, combined with the stress risers from sharp transitions in the design. Way to make something that should have been robust a delicate flower in comparison to what it should have been.

 

[WillB]

valid points for sure.

I guess the question is if it needs to be stronger and if it is worth the trade off in weight and balance and comfort.

I just hate when people condemn a knife because it is not a full width full length tang. They are missing out.

this obsession with full tangs is fairly recent. I think it is from batoning wood which is now the gold standard of knife toughness.

I’m not batoning with anything but a froe.

I don't think anyone would disagree with that summary either. I admit I prefer full tang "just cuz" per prior comments.

 

[WillB]

DrFish and WillB are completely correct and anyone who disagrees with them has his or her head up their ass. Period. End of discussion. Move on to the next subject, please.

Truly one of the lamest discussions I have seen here in a long time, yet people are still debating it. Ugh. I'm out.