- Joined
- May 6, 2001
- Messages
- 5
the new RCBD ammo? The rounds JVC wrote about in the last issue of Hockheims Close Quarter Combat magazine? Sounds like true wonder ammo to me!
Handgun choices???
- Thread starter Squid
- Start date
dano
Gold Member
- Joined
- Oct 3, 1998
- Messages
- 1,555
The great bullet controversy is still raging...Since it all started in 1986 (with the Miami shootout)I wonder just how many words have been written on the subject? All of a sudden, people are choosing self defense rounds based upon a percentage written in a book, or based upon a one shot stop in jell-o, or based upon shooting pig butts or cows in the head...
From my training, and a recent ballistics class i took during a week long officer survival course, i came to the following conclusions, and some still unanswered questions:
--Most other Federal law enforcement bodies do not use the FBI test protocols, including the Secret Service, which issues the very hot .357SIG round...But most local law enforcement bodies swear by the FBI tests.
--The 147gr 9mm round isn't fast enough, and the velocity is very close the the bullets velocity expansion threshold:the minimum amount of velocity needed for the bullet to expand. These rounds are unreliable, and do not have the cross sectional density to be effective, nor do they expand reliably.
--The most effective design of conventional bullets, currently, is the Remington Golden Sabre rounds, 124gr in 9MM, 165gr in .40, and 230gr in .45. They expand, and are working as designed.
--Exotics: Magsafe and Glaser specifically, have a place, but are too expensive to train with, and penetration can be problematic.
--How much penetration? Some say 18 inches, some say 12 inches...Who knows, everybody is different in regards to physiology, body make-up, etc...WHat should be considered, though, is the fact that the person being shot is also the back stop for that expended round, and thus, if a bullet designed to penetrate 18" of flesh simulant is used, and over penetration issue is very likely to be present, thus breaking one of the key handgun safety rules: backstop.
--Who should you listen to? Sanow? Fackler? I wouldn't take either as gospel, but all sides have very good points, but some points have been invalidated since their inception, including the subsonic rage that permeated law enforcement in the early '90's.
--Bullet confidence? what if your duty round as a failure to stop, should that round automatically be pulled or taken from use? Recently, in an offier involved shooting, the suspect took 13 rounds of 180gr .40 hollow-points before the threat was stopped...How can a bullet's effectiveness be quantified, when the human body, and its reactions to the bulet cannot be, because mind set cannot be quantified.
--What I use, because everyone else is sharing:
Duty: beretta 96GT, with 180gr Ranger SXT HP's.
Offduty:SIG 229, with 165gr Golden Sabre's or 155gr Triton Quik-shoks.
Home:H&K USP 9mm, with Cor-Bon 115gr HP's
The controversy will NEVER end...
--dan
From my training, and a recent ballistics class i took during a week long officer survival course, i came to the following conclusions, and some still unanswered questions:
--Most other Federal law enforcement bodies do not use the FBI test protocols, including the Secret Service, which issues the very hot .357SIG round...But most local law enforcement bodies swear by the FBI tests.
--The 147gr 9mm round isn't fast enough, and the velocity is very close the the bullets velocity expansion threshold:the minimum amount of velocity needed for the bullet to expand. These rounds are unreliable, and do not have the cross sectional density to be effective, nor do they expand reliably.
--The most effective design of conventional bullets, currently, is the Remington Golden Sabre rounds, 124gr in 9MM, 165gr in .40, and 230gr in .45. They expand, and are working as designed.
--Exotics: Magsafe and Glaser specifically, have a place, but are too expensive to train with, and penetration can be problematic.
--How much penetration? Some say 18 inches, some say 12 inches...Who knows, everybody is different in regards to physiology, body make-up, etc...WHat should be considered, though, is the fact that the person being shot is also the back stop for that expended round, and thus, if a bullet designed to penetrate 18" of flesh simulant is used, and over penetration issue is very likely to be present, thus breaking one of the key handgun safety rules: backstop.
--Who should you listen to? Sanow? Fackler? I wouldn't take either as gospel, but all sides have very good points, but some points have been invalidated since their inception, including the subsonic rage that permeated law enforcement in the early '90's.
--Bullet confidence? what if your duty round as a failure to stop, should that round automatically be pulled or taken from use? Recently, in an offier involved shooting, the suspect took 13 rounds of 180gr .40 hollow-points before the threat was stopped...How can a bullet's effectiveness be quantified, when the human body, and its reactions to the bulet cannot be, because mind set cannot be quantified.
--What I use, because everyone else is sharing:
Duty: beretta 96GT, with 180gr Ranger SXT HP's.
Offduty:SIG 229, with 165gr Golden Sabre's or 155gr Triton Quik-shoks.
Home:H&K USP 9mm, with Cor-Bon 115gr HP's
The controversy will NEVER end...
--dan