Heat Treatment - Crystal Weaving Foundation

I asked the seller whether niolox+ has same 0.55%Si as becut, he didn't replied. Earlier ht 2.x test of becut got peak hardness at 63rc, so I expect niolox+ ht responses similar to becut. However if niolox+ has much less Si%, maybe I can push peak hardness to 64rc and working hardness at 62-63rc. iirc I wasn't too impressed with becut test blades. Anyhow, since I want to try 1.2419 & 1.2519 in the next charpy test run, might as well grab some niolox+

Also grabbed some D6 3mm thick for smaller knives. My 3/16" thick D6 65+rc chopper keep impressing me, it has similar edge stability as d2 at same hrc in spite of 2-2.2%C%.

http://www.zknives.com/knives/steels/steelgraph.php?nm=d6,d2&hrn=1&gm=0

Few folks here understand the pain.
(Crisp salute)

That niolox+ is disappointing
We already have becut.
More like niolox -
 
Luong, you a D6 fan? I'm surprised you buy as much as you do. I'm worried it's just chippy compared to what other steels in it's range offers and doesn't seem to show much advantage on paper compared to other steels with PM in that range except cost.

What are you seeing in that D6?

Is it a sexy edge? Easy to Shape M7C3 but with better aggression than D2?
 
Your results on A8Mod are interesting.

Many claim A8mod is the steel used for INFI by Busse. ( I don't believe it is).
 
I only tested three large D6 blades (hrc: 65-68), found their keen/fine edge more resemblance to zdp-189 - as you guessed - but has much better edge stability than zdp. D6 feels slightly more aggressive than cpm 154 but less than d2. D6 has similar sharpening effort as D2 but edge less crumbly at 50-150 coarse grit/belt than d2. I hasn't take D6 edge to sub 6um grit yet, so to be try & see whether this steel take a spot as zdp-189 lite. I ordered 3 bar of D6 at 3mm thick to test sub micron edge stability and performance. iirc I did looked into D6 microstructure, carbide are quite coarse and high volume, so perhaps carbides are mixture & composite m7c3 and m23c6.

Luong, you a D6 fan? I'm surprised you buy as much as you do. I'm worried it's just chippy compared to what other steels in it's range offers and doesn't seem to show much advantage on paper compared to other steels with PM in that range except cost.

What are you seeing in that D6?

Is it a sexy edge? Easy to Shape M7C3 but with better aggression than D2?

I only tested 1 sample of A8Mod with std ht. Sure, it performed poorly at 60rc - it's a bummer because I want a tough reference/control blade to test/measure my ht against. Next time (whenever that is), I would make another control and cwf ht blades - let them duke out on abusive tests. Busse infi ht is proprietary, so perhaps ht is the different rather than steel itself. As whether A8mod is equiv to infi? Well, infi has 'similar' elem composition as a8mod but slight elem% different & minute/trace elem% could differentiate the two. As for which one has advantage or better? IDK. otoh, I am curious to see cwf ht 4.0 a8mod stack against infi around 60rc.

Your results on A8Mod are interesting.

Many claim A8mod is the steel used for INFI by Busse. ( I don't believe it is).
 
I only tested three large D6 blades (hrc: 65-68), found their keen/fine edge more resemblance to zdp-189 - as you guessed - but has much better edge stability than zdp. D6 feels slightly more aggressive than cpm 154 but less than d2. D6 has similar sharpening effort as D2 but edge less crumbly at 50-150 coarse grit/belt than d2. I hasn't take D6 edge to sub 6um grit yet, so to be try & see whether this steel take a spot as zdp-189 lite. I ordered 3 bar of D6 at 3mm thick to test sub micron edge stability and performance. iirc I did looked into D6 microstructure, carbide are quite coarse and high volume, so perhaps carbides are mixture & composite m7c3 and m23c6.



I only tested 1 sample of A8Mod with std ht. Sure, it performed poorly at 60rc - it's a bummer because I want a tough reference/control blade to test/measure my ht against. Next time (whenever that is), I would make another control and cwf ht blades - let them duke out on abusive tests. Busse infi ht is proprietary, so perhaps ht is the different rather than steel itself. As whether A8mod is equiv to infi? Well, infi has 'similar' elem composition as a8mod but slight elem% different & minute/trace elem% could differentiate the two. As for which one has advantage or better? IDK. otoh, I am curious to see cwf ht 4.0 a8mod stack against infi around 60rc.
Just my opinion,
I feel that A8mod might be too strained at 60rc with that HT, I realize you haven't worked your magic on it yet and just tried the standard protocol curves that hit 60rc.

I this still feel this steel doesn't have enough alloy to help with solid soultion strengthing so the matrix is strained to hit that hardness. I feel the composition of that steel isn't made for sexy Hardnesses. One of the reasons I don't touch gummy, ductile, shock steels.
I feel its just made for mid 50s rc and strengthing with thick Geometry so they can be stiff to prevent bending and staying bent thick grind to keep behind the edge from deforming and thick edge angles to keep from rolling all this so it doesnt break/crack/chip with severe shock/impact and reduced fatigue build up.

Trades away everything that makes a high performance cutting tool. Thin Geometry

Still curious to grab the popcorn and watch what you do with it, as always.

Should be fun.

Interested to try some D6, You know me. Always questing for cool edges.
 
A8mod is a mid alloy steel and with enough carbon to reach 61-61.5rc, so at 60rc would/should provides plenty of toughness. 8670 std ht 63rc test blade (a few posts above) is also near peak hardness but it sure out performed a8mod by a large margin. O1 ht 4.0 65rc near peak hardness also performed better than a8mod std ht at 60rc. This comparison disregarded hardness differences. I need test another control a8mod 60rc blade to double check previous finding.

I agree about the need of inefficient bulk edge geometry to compensate for 50s rc hardness. At mid/upper 50s, there are plenty of steels would be as tough if not tougher than a8mod. For bulk heavy impacting edge, 50s rc is appropriate but sure isn't good for slicing/sharp edge. For common chopper, it nice to support heavy chopping and fine cutting too ... hey the 2 jungle knives 63rc above are eating cake

When I side-to-side a8mod std ht 60rc vs ht 4.0 at 60rc(thinking about 61rc), well if strained matrix is indeed/looked so, then both would sucks :p

Just my opinion,
I feel that A8mod might be too strained at 60rc with that HT, I realize you haven't worked your magic on it yet and just tried the standard protocol curves that hit 60rc.

I this still feel this steel doesn't have enough alloy to help with solid soultion strengthing so the matrix is strained to hit that hardness. I feel the composition of that steel isn't made for sexy Hardnesses. One of the reasons I don't touch gummy, ductile, shock steels.
I feel its just made for mid 50s rc and strengthing with thick Geometry so they can be stiff to prevent bending and staying bent thick grind to keep behind the edge from deforming and thick edge angles to keep from rolling all this so it doesnt break/crack/chip with severe shock/impact and reduced fatigue build up.

Trades away everything that makes a high performance cutting tool. Thin Geometry

Still curious to grab the popcorn and watch what you do with it, as always.

Should be fun.

Interested to try some D6, You know me. Always questing for cool edges.

Just a fun guessing/prediction on v-notched charpy test result (expect result in 2-3 weeks).

For context... Larrin Thomas's unnotched charpy test result: Aebl 61.6rc toughness 23.3 ft-lbs, 62rc O1 toughness 6 ft-lbs, extrapolated 63rc O1 toughness 4.7 ft-lbs.

If above aebl 62rc control std ht v-notched toughness got X ft-lbs and let's normalize X to 23.3, what is your rough estimate (or wild guess) normalized # for O1 ht 4.0 63rc?
 
My A8(mod) blade on a full-sized Benchmade Rukus was heat treated by Fredrik Haakonsen to 60-61 Rc. I haven't tested it to find the limits of the blade's toughness, but it chops branches without damage (30 degree inclusive edge with 0.015 inches at the edge shoulders). Other steels at less aggressive geometry have shown damage from this chopping, and some (Aus8) have failed.

Fredrik follows a very elaborate heat treat, and his knives are renowned for their toughness and edge stability. So I don't think hardness is the issue.
 
Thanks. You are right, v-notch numbers should be quite small compare to other charpy tests: U, C and especially No-notch. Result of each steel specimen/set relative to other steels sets provide good context for how they relate to real world impact toughness behavior.

Taken 59rc 3V 6 ft-lbs v-notch as reference. From this: https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/toughness-expansion-on-charpy-c-notch-values.1067237/ roughly 3V 59rc to 63rc show 50% reduction in toughness ~70 to 35 ft-lbs. Thus, 63rc 3V v-notch probably be no more than 3 ft-lbs.

From your graph aebl no-notch result: https://i0.wp.com/knifesteelnerds.c.../03/AEB-L-hardness-toughness2.jpg?w=752&ssl=1
60rc to 63rc toughness reduced about 55-60%. Which is similar to 3V toughness curve.

62rc O1 toughness from your un-notch result is 6 ft-lbs vs 62rc aebl at ~24 ft-lbs. Hence aebl is 4 times tougher than O1 at this hardness per your instance of un-notched charpy test.

Extrapolation using ^ numbers. 63rc O1 full size v-notch should = about 3 * 1/4 = less than 1 ft-lbs.

Again actual charpy# for whether full or sub size specimen is hard to relate in real world but how each result within the frame of reference of each other has more contextual usefulness. * full size thickness is 10mm vs my test set either 2 or 2.5mm thick.

So while waiting for result, I am curious to hear educated guesses/projections on whether O1 ht 4.0 result will be inline/align with data above, better or worse.

Even with full size v-notch specimens 6 ft-lbs would be a big number (59 Rc 3V). 63 Rc O1 would be under 2 ft-lbs. I don't know how much lower subsize specimens would be.
 
Jungle knife designed for multipurpose from chopping to fine cutting tasks.

Aeb-l .120" thick, 15.9 oz, 63rc HT 4.0
18 dps, 0.015" behind edge thickness

Tests:
chop 2x4, eucalyptus, manzanita, raw pork rib bone
cut tomato, cucumber, onion




That jungle knife looks amazing. High hardness AEBL, thin and light!!!!! Yes please!!
 
Charpy v-notched impact test result. Once getting fractured samples back, I will test hrc to validate machining didn't altered hardness.

Sub size 10 x 55 x 3 mm, Type A per ASTM E23-18 notch

Actual specimen ft-lbs, %shear & lat-expansion #s spanned narrow numeric range, therefore error margin is large (low signal to noise ratio).

HT 4.0 relative to Control/baseline ht of aeb-l 62rc and 60.5rc specimens, L# and H# average ft-lbs respectively.

1095 64.5rc is lower than L#
1095 63rc is between L & H - near L

O1 65rc is between L & H - near L
O1 64rc is between L & H - near below mid of L & H
O1 63rc is between L & H - near above mid of L & H

aebl 63rc is between L & H - near L

O1 average lat-exp is highest among sets.

For future charpy tests - I will insist on UN-notch charpy test, which would yield wider result range (reduce error %margin). Also would add control/baseline 60 & 63rc 8670 specimens.

Edit: tested new a8mod control/baseline ht 60 hrc blade. NO CHIPS. Edge lacked strength to support chopping femur bone and African Blackwood = rippled edge. Overall, this new a8mod control blade exhibits much higher toughness than previous a8mod 60rc control blade.
qQ5NM7h.jpg

HT 4.0 a8mod test blade is in progress...
 
Last edited:
A8Mod 60rc control/standard & BCMW HT choppers

2xXv4uB.jpg


Start edge - both choppers cleanly slice phone book paper

Alternate 5 minutes chopping session per chopper: dried [2x4, eucalyptus, manzanita, rosewood, 3/8" square african blackwood, some cow bone]
8 sessions per chopper.

Afterward edge slices phone book test - Control Chopper hesitate/hic-cup but didn't catched, HT 4.0 chopper still clean and quiet slice through phonebook.

==
16d chopping test = both suffered drastic edge crushed/smushed (as shown in previous post).

**
Although ht 4.0 provide better edge retention than std ht, I think either one would performs fine and user wouldn't notice wear resistance difference w/o doing side-to-side tests.

--------------- ** ----------------
I re-ht a d2 flipper clone = AQ 58rc = no, it isn't D2 since D2 & PSF27 blades in this batch yielded 65+rc at 1850F aust. D6 (aust 1800F) yielded 67+rc. I think steel of this cheap flipper is aus8 - will re-ht it along with niolox+ batch.

67rc D6 8K(DMT EE) 15dps 0.010"BET edge has similar behavior as zdp-189, except it passed whittle cooked+dried pork rib bone. Didn't make enough random cuts to observe loss of edge keenness. It patina a little bit after cut 3lbs of raw pork.
 
After quite a few offline tests on ztuff alone & against 3v at 63rc, I found ztuff a little tougher and less wear resistant than 3v (no surprises). I am finishing a handle for 4" ztuff blade. Once complete I plan to make a video testing ztuff 63rc vs D6 67rc 15dps, 3K diamond grit finished, 0.010" behind edge thick. Will see if ztuff higher toughness brings any performance advantage to the cutting match [cardboard, ~300 cuts 1/2" rope, whittle pork rib bone]. I might insert cpm t-15 68rc to the match.

Ztuff choppers are not on my 12 months radar. However that could change depends on my interest/curiosity.

Hope to see more Ztuff tests!
 
Test edge stability and wear resistance by finely cut disposable bamboo chopstick. HT 4.0 O1 63.5rc, O1 65rc, D6 65.5rc, W2 63.5rc, CPM T-15 68.5rc, Ztuff 63rc

** 33.5 minutes video **

iAwVBLM.png


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ziu5Njl.png


R8STjxW.png


gQgHUeF.png


N6kbHoQ.png
 
A bit late here, but with all the talk of INFI and A8Mod here... thought I'd add what I though I remembered reading here a while back. INFI, while similar to A8Mod is indeed different. Also, while INFI has good toughness... it's not necessarily the toughest steel out there. The best way one should probably look at this steel is a jack of all trades compared to most steels/HT parameters available from MOST if not all manufacturers.

You will find many steels that are better at doing certain things, but I would expect it to be quite difficult to find a steel that performs similarly across the board. I could be mixed up and remembering this all wrong, but thought I would add it as a potential data point. Excerpt below is quoted from www.bussecollector.com, written by Jerry Busse.

"What is INFI?

INFI is a proprietary steel and heat-treat protocol developed by Busse Combat Knife Co. It is ONLY available through Busse Combat.

Hardness

Although hardened INFI knives are 58-60 Rc we have yet been able to chip an edge. The edge can be dented or misaligned but its high level of malleability at such high hardness has never been duplicated by any other steel that we are aware of or have tested.

Flexibility

In one of our performance tests, we bend a Battle Mistress 35 degrees in a vise and it springs back to true. Why would we do this? What does it prove? What is the benefit to the customer? Not only does this test demonstrate the enormous toughness and lateral strength of an INFI blade but, because our hardness is homogenous and not differential, it demonstrates the amount of lateral strength and "spring" of INFI all the way to the edge. That means that edge of the blade will possess this same toughness. INFI is the only knife steel ever tested that has achieved such high levels of lateral strength with a homogenous hardness of 58 - 60 Rc. No other steel has even neared this performance level.

Edge Retention

Many so-called knife experts have heralded the "wear resistance" of a steel as the key to edge retention. This may very well be true if a knife is designed and intended for the cutting of soft materials ONLY. However, we have never inspected a dull knife and found the edge to be perfectly smoothed away, like a ball bearing. Instead what we find are microscopic chips where the edge has broken or chipped away like glass after having impacted against bone, gravel, or other hard surfaces. This micro chipping dictates that the edge be reground during the resharpening process, which will ultimately lead to a thicker edge and a radical change in overall blade shape. Steels with high wear resistance normally score fairly low in shock resistance, lateral strength, and overall toughness. INFI scores very high in ALL of these categories.

Sharpening

INFI's high level of chip resistance also makes it the easiest steel to resharpen by hand that we have ever encountered. I personally fall into the category of "hand sharpening challenged". I've heard tales of those who can sharpen ball peen hammers to a razor's edge on an Arkansas stone in less than 5 seconds flat. My experiences have always been to the contrary. The spine of the knife is usually sharper than the edge when I'm finished applying my magic stone sharpening technique. One of the great features of INFI is that simply stropping away from the edge (the way a barber strops a straight edged razor) on a ceramic stick is basically all that is required to resharpen INFI. Since you're not chipping steel off the edge there is no need to grind any steel away. This feature of INFI will, likewise, allow you to keep the same overall profile of the knife for a much greater period of time.

How does INFI compare to other steels?

Simple question, complex answer. INFI represents what I have always dreamed of in a knife steel. Tougher, by an enormous margin, than any other steel I've ever tested. Unparalleled edge holding under high impact and in cutting tests. Shock resistance that begs you to "bring it on". An ease of re-sharpening that you have to see to believe and higher levels of lateral strength at high hardness than have ever been achieved by any other steel. We have published our test results and our testing methodology. We have video taped all of these tests and play the video at the knife shows we attend. More importantly, we have duplicated these performance tests in "LIVE" demonstrations at many trade shows throughout the United States. We encourage all manufacturers to put their products through our tests and to publish their results. If you want to know how another maker's knife will compare to a Busse Combat knife, ask the other maker to duplicate our tests in a "live" demo.

Is INFI stainless?

Not supposed to be. However, INFI has demonstrated very high levels of stain resistance in many different climates. Uncoated blades have been tested for years in Alaska and have made their way into the wilds of British Columbia, the High Sierras and tropical rain forests. No rust in Alaska or British Columbia! No rust in the High Sierras, even when exposed to great quantities of blood and left in the wet grass overnight. The tropical rain forest, which has been known to rust plastic (just kidding), did offer the toughest of the environmental exposures and a light speckling of surface oxidation did occur but was easily removed in the field with a hand rubbing of sand and water. No deep pitting was reported. When compared to other cutlery steels in salt spray tests, INFI faired better than ATS-34 and D-2. Although all three grades exhibited surface oxidation, the INFI was not deeply pitted as was common in these other two grades. So, although INFI is not technically a stainless steel, it is certainly not a rust aggressive steel. Couple this with a minimal amount of care and you've got a fairly maintenance free knife.

With a steel like INFI it's easy to understand why we offer the toughest guarantee in the business. We guarantee against any and all unintentional MAJOR damage forever.

Jerry Busse"
 
No thanks. I like what Luong La is doing here.

Jerry's stuff is for another thread.



A bit late here, but with all the talk of INFI and A8Mod here... thought I'd add what I though I remembered reading here a while back. INFI, while similar to A8Mod is indeed different. Also, while INFI has good toughness... it's not necessarily the toughest steel out there. The best way one should probably look at this steel is a jack of all trades compared to most steels/HT parameters available from MOST if not all manufacturers.

You will find many steels that are better at doing certain things, but I would expect it to be quite difficult to find a steel that performs similarly across the board. I could be mixed up and remembering this all wrong, but thought I would add it as a potential data point. Excerpt below is quoted from www.bussecollector.com, written by Jerry Busse.

"What is INFI?

INFI is a proprietary steel and heat-treat protocol developed by Busse Combat Knife Co. It is ONLY available through Busse Combat.

Hardness

Although hardened INFI knives are 58-60 Rc we have yet been able to chip an edge. The edge can be dented or misaligned but its high level of malleability at such high hardness has never been duplicated by any other steel that we are aware of or have tested.

Flexibility

In one of our performance tests, we bend a Battle Mistress 35 degrees in a vise and it springs back to true. Why would we do this? What does it prove? What is the benefit to the customer? Not only does this test demonstrate the enormous toughness and lateral strength of an INFI blade but, because our hardness is homogenous and not differential, it demonstrates the amount of lateral strength and "spring" of INFI all the way to the edge. That means that edge of the blade will possess this same toughness. INFI is the only knife steel ever tested that has achieved such high levels of lateral strength with a homogenous hardness of 58 - 60 Rc. No other steel has even neared this performance level.

Edge Retention

Many so-called knife experts have heralded the "wear resistance" of a steel as the key to edge retention. This may very well be true if a knife is designed and intended for the cutting of soft materials ONLY. However, we have never inspected a dull knife and found the edge to be perfectly smoothed away, like a ball bearing. Instead what we find are microscopic chips where the edge has broken or chipped away like glass after having impacted against bone, gravel, or other hard surfaces. This micro chipping dictates that the edge be reground during the resharpening process, which will ultimately lead to a thicker edge and a radical change in overall blade shape. Steels with high wear resistance normally score fairly low in shock resistance, lateral strength, and overall toughness. INFI scores very high in ALL of these categories.

Sharpening

INFI's high level of chip resistance also makes it the easiest steel to resharpen by hand that we have ever encountered. I personally fall into the category of "hand sharpening challenged". I've heard tales of those who can sharpen ball peen hammers to a razor's edge on an Arkansas stone in less than 5 seconds flat. My experiences have always been to the contrary. The spine of the knife is usually sharper than the edge when I'm finished applying my magic stone sharpening technique. One of the great features of INFI is that simply stropping away from the edge (the way a barber strops a straight edged razor) on a ceramic stick is basically all that is required to resharpen INFI. Since you're not chipping steel off the edge there is no need to grind any steel away. This feature of INFI will, likewise, allow you to keep the same overall profile of the knife for a much greater period of time.

How does INFI compare to other steels?

Simple question, complex answer. INFI represents what I have always dreamed of in a knife steel. Tougher, by an enormous margin, than any other steel I've ever tested. Unparalleled edge holding under high impact and in cutting tests. Shock resistance that begs you to "bring it on". An ease of re-sharpening that you have to see to believe and higher levels of lateral strength at high hardness than have ever been achieved by any other steel. We have published our test results and our testing methodology. We have video taped all of these tests and play the video at the knife shows we attend. More importantly, we have duplicated these performance tests in "LIVE" demonstrations at many trade shows throughout the United States. We encourage all manufacturers to put their products through our tests and to publish their results. If you want to know how another maker's knife will compare to a Busse Combat knife, ask the other maker to duplicate our tests in a "live" demo.

Is INFI stainless?

Not supposed to be. However, INFI has demonstrated very high levels of stain resistance in many different climates. Uncoated blades have been tested for years in Alaska and have made their way into the wilds of British Columbia, the High Sierras and tropical rain forests. No rust in Alaska or British Columbia! No rust in the High Sierras, even when exposed to great quantities of blood and left in the wet grass overnight. The tropical rain forest, which has been known to rust plastic (just kidding), did offer the toughest of the environmental exposures and a light speckling of surface oxidation did occur but was easily removed in the field with a hand rubbing of sand and water. No deep pitting was reported. When compared to other cutlery steels in salt spray tests, INFI faired better than ATS-34 and D-2. Although all three grades exhibited surface oxidation, the INFI was not deeply pitted as was common in these other two grades. So, although INFI is not technically a stainless steel, it is certainly not a rust aggressive steel. Couple this with a minimal amount of care and you've got a fairly maintenance free knife.

With a steel like INFI it's easy to understand why we offer the toughest guarantee in the business. We guarantee against any and all unintentional MAJOR damage forever.

Jerry Busse"
 
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