In regards to failure phenomena

[not2sharp]

...What i see in this particular phenomena is that the kami's have given just what the customers requested.
People wanted the biggest, baddest khukuri to also be laser sharp out of the box. Thick spines and laser sharpness are two things that arent necessarily a good thing to have together in one piece....

When you build designs generated by people with no product experience, and your producers accept no responsibility for the end result, you are bound to have problems.

n2s

 

[Karda]

"We do everything we can to make a fine khukuri and in the event of problems take care of our customers wholly (as long as it's not user error or abuse)."

how do you determine " user error "?

That usually depends on the customer being honest with us about usage, but as with any knife there is usually some kind of sign when a knife has been abused or cared for improperly.

To me a knife that has held up to chopping and such for months or even years, only to be somehow damaged and returned for warranty tells me that it is likely not the products fault. By the same token a knife just bought and summarily fails testing or fails shortly after purchase would likely be a defected product. As always there is exceptions and like i've stated we always try to err on the side of the customer and keep everyone happy.

Even in the khukuri world one cannot necessarily judge one company against the other fairly. Khukuri house has and sells hundreds of khukuri and has plenty of failures. Tora has relatively few failures, but also sells a fraction of the khukuri that H.I. or KH sells....
What i'm getting at is all things considered, the failures H.I. has seen arent all the bad when put in proper perspective of the big picture.

Everyone knows what traditionally handmade khukuri are, how theyre made and such. One should not expect them to perform as a custom made item or production item costing several times more, nor should they expect them to perform as well as a blade costing less with less mass and different configuration, they are different animals. As my second link in the OP stated. To be concise and fair you must compare apples to apples, not apples to oranges. So why XXX my Busse Or why XXX my becker really doesnt hold alot of water.

 

[Karda]

When you build designs generated by people with no product experience, and your producers accept no responsibility for the end result, you are bound to have problems.

n2s

Whos not accepting responsibility? Have not issues been taken care of to the best of Aunties ability? Even Questionable ones?
That begs the question.... should Auntie really be held liable for failures of designs submitted by forumites?

 

[Duzzy]

I do not think that HI should take responsibility for customer designed products in certain regards. If it doesn't chop well because of the requested edge geometry, or handle correctly because it's unbalanced I don't think that is HI's problem. I would fault the kamis if the blade is made with poor construction techniques or a faulty heat treat. If HI cannot properly heat treat a custom design, then I don't think the Kamis should be making them.

 

[shortwinger]

What i see in this particular phenomena is that the kami's have given just what the customers requested.

Karda,

I think you should justify that remark. What I have seen for well over a year or two is people asking and asking and asking for a return to the correct, traditionally sized models. Virtually every thread makes mention of the current kukri being too big. About a year ago there seemed to be some level of understanding and statements were made that the kami had been instructed to make some traditionally sized models?!? Many people wanted Bonecutters made in the traditional size with correct shapes and bevels. The M43 was also mentioned with very detailed specs. MANY people lined up to buy any such models that showed up but no other mention of it was ever made. Other models have also been the source of this type of discussion. And to be fair, this "too big" thing is not a one or two time discussion, it pops up on the regular posts, dod posts and is mentioned virtually every day. We can expect new people to pop in and out with the "bigger is better" mentality but us regulars are not asking for a bigger heavier sharper kukri.

On many points I completely agree with you, here are some points for you to consider.

User mistakes:

Shaving sharp: As you mentioned this is not what anyone would do with an axe and it is not correct with a kukri unless you want a Youtube water bottle chopper. A fine razor edge is bad for even a correctly sized kukri but for beefed up HI kukri it is a fatal fault. No fine razor sharp edge can hold up to chopping.

Modified edges: While everyone certainly has the choice what type of edge they put on their kukri they should understand that doing so can and does result in edge failure. This is not to say that a convex edge is the only one a kukri can have, other profiles work if done correctly.

Model selection: This is partly from ignorance and some of the list members guide people to choose models that are way too big for the task. Others just recommed "their" favorite model no matter what the person is asking about. It is hard for kids and people not familiar with the kukri not to fall in love with the idea of big if it presented with pictures and stories of how they are used all the time. I highly doubt these claims.


Company issues:

Messages don't seem to be getting through. How could all these posts complaining about the same thing go unaddressed for so long?

Model integrity: This is at the heart of many of the complaints and frustrations voiced on the list (and other lists). People want to know what they are getting, especially the more experienced members that order a specific model to do a specif job. With models showing up so vastly different each time it is hard to imagine that people would not be frustrated.

Inexperienced kami: Of course most of the people on this list are aware of the many issues going on in Nepal and I think most have been very patient and understanding with this situation. One of the ways we all get better at something new is repetition and guidance. One of the issues I see is that no two kukri are coming out even close to being the same. How can a new kami learn to make a BAS or Bonecutter or M43 when they never even try to create the same blade twice? Model integrity works hand and hand with teaching a new kami and it also gives the bosses the ability to do quality control by measuring each kukri with a template. They will also develop the ability to judge things like "balance and feel" for each model and instantly know when something is off.

Marketing: If mistakes and monster kukri are portrayed as special or normal then new people will be drawn to them and we make a new generation of [big] junkies. At the heart of any reputable knife business is the "user blades." Having a good user brings [and keeps] people to your company and buying your knives. To me the kukri is special enough, it doesn't have to be BIG or heavy or carved or some kind of hybrid. Everyone knows they can special order a gift or desk top display model if they desire, but for people to think "your" special model is really special, it has to be modeled after a legendary user.

Summary: "I believe" that model integrity is the key with the foundation being a core group of uniform, hard core user models. This helps train new kami, helps the bosses with QC and instills confidence in the regular customers and the resulting chatter on the various forums will guide new people to what the kukri is all about. You will always have people that want a freak model but that should always be outside the established norm. If 10 ASTK's are made, they should all look and feel like an ASTK. Of course there will be slight differences because they are hand made but, not so much that it iterferes with model integrity. When I started lurking years ago this company was known for its users, especially the Ang Kholas, BAS, WWII and M43. It is their reputation that brought me and many others here and will keep us coming back as long as they stay true. I started this paragraph with "I believe" because of course I have no say as to the direction of this company. I am ony one customer and I think it is obvious what and why I buy from HI.

 

[Howard Wallace]

I believe the problem is with the weight of some of the blades. HI tends to produce khukris which are far larger and thicker then traditional examples. As the size increases mass grows in three dimensions (length x width x thickness) while strength grows in two dimensions (the width and thickness of the cross section). So the larger the knife the more stress accumulates on the cutting edge until the cutting edge collapses. The solution would be to come up with better materials and heat treatments to absorb the extra stress or to reduce the thickness of some of these knives, or improve the skills of the user so that they consciously use these knives within their limitations rather then constantly apply full force blows which will damage the knife. Given that available heat treat is traditional and rudimentary and that HI uses 5160 of the equivalent "truck spring steels" I do not see an easy fix for improved materials. The best solution may be to put some of these knives on a diet, to shed excess weight which may be mostly useless since the edge cannot handle the additional strain anyway.

n2s

An axe is big and heavy. The other factor is edge profile. If you want a big heavy chopper the edge profile has to be appropriate.

In lumberjack competitions they sharpen their axes to a razor edge, but that edge only lasts for a couple of minutes, long enough for their competition. No lumberjack would sharpen his axe in that manner for a day of work. He would spend more time sharpening and repairing dings than chopping.

...the intent here is to discuss the possibility of chipping/shearing because of lateral stresses during the act of chopping...

...honestly, i find the idea does have merit, especially put in context with everything else.

There is a way to test your unsupported chopping hypothesis. Take one of your blades that you have been chopping with and know is good. Then intentionly chop in the hypothesized bad manner (but be safe and don't hurt yourself!). See if you can knock out a chip. I'd document the experiment with before and after photographs.

 

[Toxie]

A few points:

I heartily agree with Mr. Wallace about testing. I also think you send a bit of a mixed message; Ie: you're telling us that your product cannot be reasonably compared to any other and should be treated as a handmade low-tech, lower cost item. Yet it's hallmark features are incredible toughness and the ability to chop.
I also do not put much faith in the whole unsupported chopping theory, as the source of the theory can't even decide what he means. If you read the thread he vacillates between it being held too softly, and then an ending stroke glance or wobble, and then he goes on to blame full-power sweeping blows. Not exactly the most thought out or compete theory (not that he's completely wrong, it's just that he's all over the map).

I honestly think you have a production problem. If this "unsupported chopping" thing had legs, it would have showed up right at the beginning of your offering the product. This doesn't appear to be the case. I highly doubt that your customers now use the product drastically differently. Many hatchets aren't any thicker in the edge then a 'Kuk, and they are used in a similar fashon. You dont see many with dime sized sections out of the bit despite there being probably a thousand times as many in the US. That's because people use them like a hatchet (ie as intended) AND the product is sound.

The other side of the coin has already been alluded to, in that some will want it to be usable as a camp knife AND a hatchet.
Those persons suffer from user error.

I'm not knocking you in any way, you're very stand up! I however think that a "new theory" about edge damage cause on cutting implement designs hundreds to thousands of years old is a bit flawed And/or in need of testing. I feel that if it was a common and legitimate cause of blade damage in an otherwise sound blade then everyone would already know about it. The Gurkhas would tell you "Don't do this!". After all, everyone knows not to use a knife as a crowbar, but I've never seen an axe shed a huge chip like that from a "glancing blow". From a rock, sure. But not just from normal usage (your not always going to have perfect strikes, and if a chopping implement can't take it, then the tool is flawed not the user).

 

[Karda]

Karda,

I think you should justify that remark. What I have seen for well over a year or two is people asking and asking and asking for a return to the correct, traditionally sized models. Virtually every thread makes mention of the current kukri being too big. About a year ago there seemed to be some level of understanding and statements were made that the kami had been instructed to make some traditionally sized models?!? Many people wanted Bonecutters made in the traditional size with correct shapes and bevels. The M43 was also mentioned with very detailed specs. MANY people lined up to buy any such models that showed up but no other mention of it was ever made. Other models have also been the source of this type of discussion. And to be fair, this "too big" thing is not a one or two time discussion, it pops up on the regular posts, dod posts and is mentioned virtually every day. We can expect new people to pop in and out with the "bigger is better" mentality but us regulars are not asking for a bigger heavier sharper kukri.

How can i clarify it more? It took years for it to happen and probably isnt going to be undone overnight, It's why i specifically put "pay close attention to size and weight on all models" in the "first khukuri" thread in the link library. I've seen and handled my fair share of khukuri and have only seen a few that i'd consider so grossly overweight/built that i'd consider them unpractical, especially when considering the usage some customers put these things thru. H.I. has never claimed to make historically correct khukuri.

On many points I completely agree with you, here are some points for you to consider.

User mistakes:

Shaving sharp: As you mentioned this is not what anyone would do with an axe and it is not correct with a kukri unless you want a Youtube water bottle chopper. A fine razor edge is bad for even a correctly sized kukri but for beefed up HI kukri it is a fatal fault. No fine razor sharp edge can hold up to chopping.

Modified edges: While everyone certainly has the choice what type of edge they put on their kukri they should understand that doing so can and does result in edge failure. This is not to say that a convex edge is the only one a kukri can have, other profiles work if done correctly.

Your last sentence is the rub on this one. Whos to say a reprofiling has been done correctly? Whos to say Auntie should warranty such a modified edge when it's not the one the product came with?

Model selection: This is partly from ignorance and some of the list members guide people to choose models that are way too big for the task. Others just recommed "their" favorite model no matter what the person is asking about. It is hard for kids and people not familiar with the kukri not to fall in love with the idea of big if it presented with pictures and stories of how they are used all the time. I highly doubt these claims.

I wonder sometimes myself, but i don't doubt that some of the larger forumites use these behemoth khukuri just as you or i would use our normal human sized khukuri. Theres room for all here. We do try to provide variety and often it cannot be helped as khukuri from different kamis will be slightly different no matter what template we give them.


Company issues:

Messages don't seem to be getting through. How could all these posts complaining about the same thing go unaddressed for so long?

I've seen both thickness and weight come down in the last couple of years. You think the khukuri H.I. produces now are huge, you should see some of the older models i've seen. One that comes to mind is an AK bowie with a 1/2" thick spine all the way thru even the handle. It is quite heavy. The owner absolutely adores that thing. When i saw it i was OMG! How can that be practical? When i used the darn thing i was OMG, this thing suprises the heck outta me at how well it chops!

It's not that noones listening, because the weights have been coming down. There has to be a happy medium and there has to be variety. That is why it is up to the end user to educate himself and choose the size and weight that best suits them.


Model integrity: This is at the heart of many of the complaints and frustrations voiced on the list (and other lists). People want to know what they are getting, especially the more experienced members that order a specific model to do a specif job. With models showing up so vastly different each time it is hard to imagine that people would not be frustrated.

How can people not know what theyre getting. Pictures of the item and clear descriptions including size and weight are provided.

Inexperienced kami: Of course most of the people on this list are aware of the many issues going on in Nepal and I think most have been very patient and understanding with this situation. One of the ways we all get better at something new is repetition and guidance. One of the issues I see is that no two kukri are coming out even close to being the same. How can a new kami learn to make a BAS or Bonecutter or M43 when they never even try to create the same blade twice? Model integrity works hand and hand with teaching a new kami and it also gives the bosses the ability to do quality control by measuring each kukri with a template. They will also develop the ability to judge things like "balance and feel" for each model and instantly know when something is off.

Marketing: If mistakes and monster kukri are portrayed as special or normal then new people will be drawn to them and we make a new generation of [big] junkies. At the heart of any reputable knife business is the "user blades." Having a good user brings [and keeps] people to your company and buying your knives. To me the kukri is special enough, it doesn't have to be BIG or heavy or carved or some kind of hybrid. Everyone knows they can special order a gift or desk top display model if they desire, but for people to think "your" special model is really special, it has to be modeled after a legendary user.

Summary: "I believe" that model integrity is the key with the foundation being a core group of uniform, hard core user models. This helps train new kami, helps the bosses with QC and instills confidence in the regular customers and the resulting chatter on the various forums will guide new people to what the kukri is all about. You will always have people that want a freak model but that should always be outside the established norm. If 10 ASTK's are made, they should all look and feel like an ASTK. Of course there will be slight differences because they are hand made but, not so much that it iterferes with model integrity. When I started lurking years ago this company was known for its users, especially the Ang Kholas, BAS, WWII and M43. It is their reputation that brought me and many others here and will keep us coming back as long as they stay true. I started this paragraph with "I believe" because of course I have no say as to the direction of this company. I am ony one customer and I think it is obvious what and why I buy from HI.

And we appreciate everyones understanding since Uncle Bill's passing and we do our best to keep his dream alive. That being said...times change, prices change, kami's change and thats life as it is. True, we've gone thru some kamis and the old ones are no longer there due to retiring. illness or moving on to other work, but these kamis are hardly inexperienced.
From what i've seen, for the most part, the kami's do pretty well in staying true to the designs given them. The fit and finish on most pieces is as good or better than it's ever been. Again, the high fit and finish was in direct correlation to customer complaint.
For the most part the kami's are doing pretty darn well in keeping uniformity with the patterns and everyone knows up front that there will be variations, intentional and unintentional.
To constantly complain and disparage some of the product because it does not fit ones personal criteria is not the proper way to go about things. These type of peronal gripes are that...personal gripes. They should not be constantly brought up to hurt aunties business.

Now....what the heck most of this thread has to do with the question i originally post in the OP is beyond me.
Honestly, i'm about worn out now as i spent most of last night/morning at the hospital with the wife and most of today here either pondering or responding to this thread.

 

[Karda]

A few points:

I heartily agree with Mr. Wallace about testing. I also think you send a bit of a mixed message; Ie: you're telling us that your product cannot be reasonably compared to any other and should be treated as a handmade low-tech, lower cost item. Yet it's hallmark features are incredible toughness and the ability to chop.
I also do not put much faith in the whole unsupported chopping theory, as the source of the theory can't even decide what he means. If you read the thread he vacillates between it being held too softly, and then an ending stroke glance or wobble, and then he goes on to blame full-power sweeping blows. Not exactly the most thought out or compete theory (not that he's completely wrong, it's just that he's all over the map).

I realse his statement may seem a bit contadictory, but i do understand what he means by them. I would prefer to call the phenomena "lateral impact shearing" any of the 3 scenarios he listed could be potential causes of "LIS" and i do think they have some merit with any chopping tool.

I honestly think you have a production problem. If this "unsupported chopping" thing had legs, it would have showed up right at the beginning of your offering the product. This doesn't appear to be the case. I highly doubt that your customers now use the product drastically differently. Many hatchets aren't any thicker in the edge then a 'Kuk, and they are used in a similar fashon. You dont see many with dime sized sections out of the bit despite there being probably a thousand times as many in the US. That's because people use them like a hatchet (ie as intended) AND the product is sound.

The other side of the coin has already been alluded to, in that some will want it to be usable as a camp knife AND a hatchet.
Those persons suffer from user error.

I'm not knocking you in any way, you're very stand up! I however think that a "new theory" about edge damage cause on cutting implement designs hundreds to thousands of years old is a bit flawed And/or in need of testing. I feel that if it was a common and legitimate cause of blade damage in an otherwise sound blade then everyone would already know about it. The Gurkhas would tell you "Don't do this!". After all, everyone knows not to use a knife as a crowbar, but I've never seen an axe shed a huge chip like that from a "glancing blow". From a rock, sure. But not just from normal usage (your not always going to have perfect strikes, and if a chopping implement can't take it, then the tool is flawed not the user).

And i don't think there is as much of a production problem as some would like to think.
Again, you are comparing apples to oranges. I can imagine how much complaint there would be if we started making the khukuri profile the same as axes and hatchets. Imagine how heavy they would be!

Like i said previously, the build quality and finish is nearly the same or better as it's always been. Possibly a slightly higher failure rate, but should that not be somewhat expected when this company has gone thru the changes and troubles it has since Uncle Bill left us?
Even when Uncle was alive there were several instances of heat treat problems and handle failure problems at times....mostly around festival season, but not always

Actually the kamis have said Dont do this to many of the things we crazy americans do with thes blades, they say don't chop bones, rocks or other stupid things and please respect your khukuri and treat it as well as you would like it to treat you.

Honestly, i think if you all knew exactly what it takes to make these like the kamis do and what Auntie has to go thru just to get them to your door, you'd wonder just how the heck it is possible at all, especially at the prices she sells alot of them for.

Again, in context and perspective, i think H.I. has done purty dern good considering.

.....

 

[Howard Wallace]

...
Honestly, i'm about worn out now as i spent most of last night/morning at the hospital with the wife and most of today here either pondering or responding to this thread.

Smoke going up for your wife, and you. Take care, friend.

 

[Toxie]

And i don't think there is as much of a production problem as some would like to think.

Again, you are comparing apples to oranges. I can imagine how much complaint there would be if we started making the khukuri profile the same as axes and hatchets. Imagine how heavy they would be!

I don't think you have a bad product either . I'm just pointing out that *I* find the proposed theory . . . unlikely. A well built (like the vast majority of yours) product should stand up to normal use fine. I was just pointing out that in normal use it's expected that not every hit is going to be perfect, and the product should be engineered to handle such .

Like i said previously, the build quality and finish is nearly the same or better as it's always been. Possibly a slightly higher failure rate, but should that not be somewhat expected when this company has gone thru the changes and troubles it has since Uncle Bill left us?

Times do change, and as you say you handle the failures very well. Not faulting you there at all!

Honestly, i think if you all knew exactly what it takes to make these like the kamis do and what Auntie has to go thru just to get them to your door, you'd wonder just how the heck it is possible at all, especially at the prices she sells alot of them for.

Again, in context and perspective, i think H.I. has done purty dern good considering.

Don't take the wrong message, you're not doing badly at all - we're all one big Knife loving circle . I'm just pointing out that the provided theory is (IMHO) a bit flawed. Some people are just going to break things, out of ignorance, uncaring or misuse. I think the "Wobble" doesn't automatically equal "abuse" and would not contribute significantly to blade failure (of a properly constructed blade - of any chopper type) or it would already be a well-noted occurance.

 

[Karda]

I don't think you have a bad product either . I'm just pointing out that *I* find the proposed theory . . . unlikely. A well built (like the vast majority of yours) product should stand up to normal use fine. I was just pointing out that in normal use it's expected that not every hit is going to be perfect, and the product should be engineered to handle such .



Times do change, and as you say you handle the failures very well. Not faulting you there at all!



Don't take the wrong message, you're not doing badly at all - we're all one big Knife loving circle . I'm just pointing out that the provided theory is (IMHO) a bit flawed. Some people are just going to break things, out of ignorance, uncaring or misuse. I think the "Wobble" doesn't automatically equal "abuse" and would not contribute significantly to blade failure (of a properly constructed blade - of any chopper type) or it would already be a well-noted occurance.

When i first though of it and even found that knifeforums thread, i though it might not be possible also, honestly.
But then the more i thought about it the more i came to realise that it actually could be a factor in some failures, however small a part that may be and i do realise that the part would probably be small.
I really expected and hoped to be able to talk about this topic in more depth, but it seems to have been taken over by grievances that others have about some issues other than the topic of lateral stress.
I'd like it to be noted that i'm in no way accusing anyone of misuse or even saying that the lateral stress issue would be a factor in any warranty decision. I really only wanted to discuss the idea of the theory which seemed somewhat confirmed by that knifeforums thread and by people who've seen far more damaged edges that i could ever dream of.

As far as the other issues brought up here. I'd like you to realise the stress Auntie is under just keeping things going both here and in Nepal. We do everything possible to make these khukuri right. Most of the time we hit the mark, sometimes not. Thats just life.
You know we listen to our customers. Because we havent produced the lighter historically correct items right now, doesnt mean we wont or havent been listening. It's because there are other things than need our attention and most days there are not enough hours. We can only do so much and must try to work everything else in somehow.
It's just her doing virtually all of the work in Reno and Us three moderators here on the forum. Pala and Rajesh at BirGhorka with a handful of kami's pounding steel.Thats really oversimplifying things.....there is much we all do to keep this going that is never seen. Pretty much every penny goes back into the company in one form or another. At times money is pretty tight.

What i do know is that all things considered and put into perspective, H.I. is and has been doing pretty well producing fine khukuri, despite the many obstacles and setbacks it's had. I can tell you that the Logistics of this business endeavor is a nightmare from hell on it's best days, anyone in nepal can tell you that it is. I'm sure the oldtimers could tell you that Uncle Bill was really unsure that the business would survive long without him and was sure it would fold altogether when Pala was no longer able. Rest assured that we are doing everything possible to keep H.I. going as it always has been and will continue to do so as long as we're able.

 

[arbiter]

The problem is that's all most people have to compare them to and that's really what people WILL compare them to in performance and integrity. The only other traditional khuks are made by Tora and the khukuri houses. All of us here know there's something special about HI khuks, but performance is performance. Also, in using returned khuks you just have to be sure you are using them on the same sorts of wood. It seems many people here on BF chop pine. Pine is quite soft compared to what I have around me, so that could be an issue with others as well. Enough on that.

UCP. I don't know. They way I always understood is that a loose grip letting the momentum of the blade do the work was proper technique. The blade is not forced into the medium, but sort of propelled. Brought down by the shoulder, the elbow then takes over, and it's finished by a flick of the wrist. I only recently really understood this and used it to any effect. It works great, but sounds like what is being questioned. Having a few fingers around the pommel with the rest loose is how I chop now. This works well, but I'll never say I'm an expert on khukuri use. I don't see how this could cause a problem myself, but I'm always open to new information.

Tikki, it's not a gamble dealing with HI. A refund or replacement is only an email away for a defective product. Take care.

I agree,but with a caveat-the blade is swung into the medium,but if allowed to rotate by too loose a grip,the cutting edge will undergo lateral stress as it penetrates,which will absolutely bend or break an edge.This is the crux of this discussion,and improper technique can damage a carbon steel blade.There are limtations to what steel can endure-improper use technique is one of those limitations.

 

[jdk1]

Karda, I hope all is well with your wife. Get some rest and forget about this thread for a while. I don’t want to be a pest and I certainly don’t want to hurt HI’s business, but there are several problems here which are troubling to me. Sorry in advance for the long post.

You speak of edge re-profiling being a possible cause of edge damage. I agree this could certainly be a cause, but for as long as I’ve been here we’ve been advised to sharpen away the softened metal at the edge. Most people don’t have a belt sander or the skill to create a perfect convex edge, myself included. I’ve had to do this sharpening to several HI khuks and it works, but we can’t constantly tell people to do it and then tell them it could’ve caused a failure they might have had, unless they went unreasonably acute or sharp. But still, they’re receiving a blade that the edge MUST be worked on.

As for khuks failing months or years after purchase, often people are advised to try to fix a problem by hammering, filing, and sharpening. Again, it seems to work in some cases and can be a great way to salvage a khuk, as well as a fun way to build skills and familiarization with these blades. But, this work takes time, especially if the khuk is sent cross-country to another forumite for repair. In some cases, this could be the reason. Not all cases, but some. Also, I regularly read on BF about stresses being created during use and building up to the point where the blade finally fails. This is the argument we hear against batonning often and it also takes time. This is just something to keep in mind.

HI khuks being compared to other knives and axes. They’re compared daily on this forum and other forums on BF. I can’t understand the logic of saying a person can’t compare the performance and integrity of a traditionally made khuk to other designs or modern made khuks. It’s often said here how superior the traditionally made khuk is to other tools. It’s not right in my mind to espouse the virtues by comparison, but not allow comparison when discussing failures.

This thread was started in the HI forum, not the General discussion forum or even the Cantina, which implies it deals directly with HI products. Your opening post speaks very little of the details of the theory, but almost exclusively discusses HI khuk failures and how this theory is a possible cause for the failures. I believe that’s why many responses have dealt with failures and real or perceived issues with occasional HI products, as opposed to the general idea of how this theory applies to knives used for chopping. If posted in the General forum and without mention of specific company failures, this topic would likely have been seen as a vehicle for discussing this theory and nothing else. The current direction of this thread leads me to believe this theory is suspected of causing problems in only traditionally manufactured khukuri and no other types of blades. My (very) novice opinion would be that differentially heat treated blades would be less susceptible due to having a softer, more shock-absorbing support for the edge, as opposed to a blade hardened through to the spine.

No one here wants to cause any trouble for HI. To the contrary, we regularly make posts and start threads trying tell the world how wonderful HI khuks are as tools, in addition to how they warm the spirit in a way no other blade can (for me, anyway). I think most folks believed this thread was started as a mechanism for feedback concerning the issues posted over the past year or so, and forumites posted accordingly. We are a different sort of family here and that’s why many people come and stay IMHO. I certainly intend no disrespect to you or anyone else by my words. HI has been very good to me and I think we would all love to see the business prosper and grow. There are plenty enough happy customers around that no one should take this thread as cause for concern. We are here and active because we have HI khuks we cherish. Again, please don’t take this as troublemaking as that certainly wasn’t the intent. Take care.

Arbiter, there is no doubt proper technique is important, for safety if nothing else. But I don't believe the design has lasted for so long because it required perfect technique. As Hollowdweller pointed out in his thread, it's impossible to chop wood with any effect without inducing lateral stress, but I'm sure some take it too far. Take care.

 

[Karda]

Thanks jdk1,

We are a family here, that is how we like to think of it.
Families can discuss things and not get to upset or heated. I always try to remember that, even though it may seem i'm just a cranky old fool sometimes. If i have not personally addressed some of peeps posts here, it's not because i don't care or don't want to.... but i'm worn out.
I kinda regretted starting this when all the things other than the topic started being posted, but i guess some of this needed to be addressed more thouroughly a discussed, so it's a good thing.

I guess i just don't quite understand some of the venom i've seen concerning the warranty and failures. The words posted here pale in comparison to some of the Emails auntie gets when a shipment is late or product hasnt come in as requested and a refund is demanded. I understand frustration all to well and under no circumstance is speaking to a lady such as Auntie like some of the things i've seen/heard warranted. We take the good and the bad, that's part of life. Auntie and i also get frustrated, but we honestly do appreciate everyone and the feedback. We both try to bend over backwards to get everyone what they want at a decent price point. You must understand though, that the forum here is only one part of the battle. There then the store and the shops, kami's, their families, supply logistics, fuel logistics, shipping logistics.....the list seems as endless and insurmountable as Everest most days. To say it is all pretty difficult is an understatement. When it's all comes together it is a beautiful thing, when it's not it can be somewhat of a train wreck.

Geez louise......i just burned myself out i think. I probably have much more to say to address posts here, but i've got IRL things to take care of yet, khukuris to work on so that i can post a sale a wife, grandma and pets to monitor and help, plus i'm waiting to speak to auntie when she gets a break enough to call me. 5 hrs fitful sleep while dreaming of working in Sparks factory and tornadoes was not enough. Believe or not, What i go thru daily is easy in comparision to what auntie has to. She amazes me at being able to do it all with calm demeanor and a smile.

sorry for rambling, but i'm dang near incoherent.

Please don't let this thread get too far ahead of me, or i'll never be able to catch up.

 

[topgun0728]

Karda,

I am giving you a big manly hug as a friend. Seriously, you need one and now's a good time to tell you how much all of us HI junkies who've stuck around for a while appreciate the great work you've been doing helping Auntie and HI's customers and keeping Uncle Bill's dream alive. Thanks, man! I don't think I can handle your job or Auntie's job or heaven forbid, a kami's job. But holding HI products to the highest standard of quality should be viewed as not only a perpetual challenge but as an honor. I think it's fair to say that most of us started on our HI journey because we were inspired by the HI story. I was personally inspired by Auntie after I talked to her on the phone and we talked not only about the khukuris I ordered from the online store (I didn’t know about the forum or DOTD then) but also about HI’s past and present. I came away with a deep respect and appreciation for the products I was about to acquire and the HI family I was about to join. Several years later, I still recall reading the story of that one gentleman who proudly took his AK Bowie with him on a camping trip with kids and spent time at length reciting the HI story and the Ghurka story. It truly warms my heart to think about it and tales like these add another dimension to the products from HI. For this very reason, all 2 or 3 dozen HI blades in my collection hold a special place that my other blades do not. After all, I can tell a story with each khukuri. And when I think about HI products, I first think about Uncle Bill & Auntie and then the special kamis both past and present as well as their families and then the Ghurka warriors who brought honor to these blades on the battlefield and then the special people who made this forum a family that we are all a part of and can always come back to and share a story and laughter and triumph and yes, sometimes the more "practical stuff" that people who love and use blades talk about.

I think seeing things in this light puts everything else into proper perspective. All of us here want to see HI succeed and carry on the legacy of Uncle Bill. As you have said, times change, prices change, and kamis change (AMEN to that), but our hope for HI to continue its timeless leadership in the market doesn't change. I want HIs to be compared to other great products and to win like it’s always done. I grin when I read on other forums sentences like "yeah, I went along with XXX and tried to save a few bucks but hey, it's definitely not as cool as an HI." I think given the challenges, Karda, you and Auntie and the rest of the company in Nepal have done a splendid job! I applaud you for your efforts and the production of hundreds of well-performing HI blades out there that we never hear about. I couldn't imagine myself doing it and I think whatever you and Auntie have done in the background to improve (more like "sharpen") the quality of HI products whenever manufacturing defects are detected can be sincerely felt by all of us and we appreciate it from the bottom of our hearts. It makes us proud of our HI family, and we then go out there and rave on and on about HI products. I think most of the "issues" brought to light here are done so with good intentions by good folks who want HI to succeed. Quite frankly, whenever one forumite brings up an “issue” that is well within reason, I feel for him/her and the HI product in question. I feel sad whenever the claim even remotely touches upon HI quality but understand that issue do occur from time to time and they occurred back in the Uncle Bill days and Uncle promptly took care of the problem, yelled at the kamis, and we all shared a beer and laughed about it on the forum. I remain optimistic, however, that you and Auntie will always do what it takes to address the issue by offering first-class customer service and improve upon it for the future if it does come down to something in the manufacturing process that can be corrected. And I patiently believe that if the legend of HI has survived to now, there’s no reason why it cannot thrive into the future. Whatever you can do to magically transfer all this goodness into some type of “force” to make HI stronger and HI products better will be well received. I will always hold HI products to the highest standard of quality because that's the stuff that shapes HI's legend and not doing so would be a dishonor to Uncle Bill.

Cheers,

 

[Steely_Gunz]

This is a very interesting discussion, and I apologize it has taken me this long to chime in. I wanted to get all of my facts straight before jumping into the fray

Like all things in life, I am absolutely sure that the heart of this matter resides somewhere in the middle of a gray area. There is no doubt in my mind that H.I. has some logistical and production issues to work out. It doesn't have as much to do with QC as it does the situation in the region. It's not as if Yangdu and Pala have decided to cut corners in order to roll around in big piles of money. We all know that the Himalayan Imports is at its core a way to empower the Nepali people. In fact, I see no corners being cut as there are probably more customer customs rolling out now than there have been in some time. Back when Uncle Bill got really ill, HI really had to run on a "what ya see is what ya get" business model as the demands and energy needed to do custom orders proved entirely too taxing on Uncle Bill in his state.

If there are indeed issues with quality coming out of Nepal, then I want to reiterate the amount of stress Yangdu is under in order to keep the wheels on this apple cart. Material costs: Through the roof. Coal: Sometimes next to impossible to get. Maoists: On the rise, extorting more than ever, and upping the violence on the innocent. That's just the Nepal side.

Now, that said, I don't totally buy the massive QC issue presented by some. I don't think it's quite fair to say that QC as a whole has gone down. If you point out the awesome fit, finish, and edge retention of a khuk made in 2007 and compare it to what you consider a butter-soft/overly brittle blade circa 2012, then I can point out MY relatively soft and dinged AK made by Bura in 2006 and compare it to the 2012 Tirtha made blade that I have chopped an entire tree up with that has still not even needed so much a swipe with the chakma. There may be some QC issues that need to be addressed, but I can assure you it is not a down-hill conspiracy that some may make it out to be.

I do agree that at times there are blade failures. Edges chip out like glass or dent on softer woods. When that happens, Yangdu tends to replace them at no cost to the owner provided they used the right tool for the job (ie using a kobra to limb a seasoned oak tree). That's part of the awesome warranty that HI keeps in place to protect its responsible customers. I have been hanging around for 10 years, and I can tell you without hesitation that Yangdu and Uncle Bill have always erred on the side of over-compensating their customer base.

Now, that gets down to another matter. In short, some folks are misusing their khuks or are sending them back prematurely. Generally speaking, the "failure" khuks are either sent back to Nepali to show the kamis what they have done wrong or they are repaired and re-purposed stateside and given a new lease on life as it cheaper than sending them all back to Nepal. The edges are straightened or the chips sharpened out. 9+ times out of 10, these "defective" khuks pass the chop and whack test with flying colors and never have another issue.

I'm NOT saying that there are not legitimate issues that need to be rectified. I think all businesses should strive to be triple tier top shelf in regards to customer service and quality product. HI is certainly up there, but all businesses need a bit of spit and polish from time to time and need to adjust accordingly to the current economic/political environment they are currently residing in. Perhaps an impromptu and unannounced khuk testing station should be temporarily administered at the shop. If the kamis don't know it is coming, it would be an easy and cost effective way to check the product across the board as a whole. Failures could be dealt with on the spot and corrected.

In the end, I think that most everything is fine. I would buy your HI knives in confidence and know that if it turns out to be too hard or too soft, Yangdu will take care of you as long as you didn't use it a grossly abusive manner. I also have the utmost faith in the fact that this sort of dialog will passed on to the shop and quantitative and qualitative measures will be taken to ensure the continued excellence of product the HI customers are expecting.

 

[bric]

I like the fact that we can have a gentleman's discussion here.

Regarding the unfortunately named, "unsupported chopping phenomenon" I think what we're talking about in general is poor form.

When slicing food on a cutting board a sharp knife will cut slightly into the surface where the belly meets the board. Then, if moved laterally (e.g. to separate a paper thin slice of onion from the rest of the bulb) a "clicking" can be felt and heard. This is the edge of the blade snapping out of the groove. Not good for the blade and I try to avoid it. It certainly dulls and is likely to roll or chip the edge to a certain degree. With a khuk it is very similar, but instead of a full lateral movement you have to watch out for spine "wobble" where the edge of the blade is embedded in a thin channel that you just sliced and the spine swings sideways.

("Spine Wobble" would have been a better name than the laughable phrase, "Unsupported Chopping Phenomenon" although I think what he meant was the blade is not properly "supported" after the strike - causing the wobble - not "our company does not endorse this sloppy use of the tool")

This wobble is most likely to come from over exertion, and can result from too clenchy a grip *or* one that is too loose. Should a little bit of spine wobble take a half-dime out of the blade or fold it over on the first occurrence? Absolutely not, but I try to avoid the wobble as it's bad for the blade and, if repeated over time, you're asking to have a chipped, torn or bent edge.

I like my khuks to start the day sharp and chakma them up occasionally as I remember and when it loses a little of its bite. It's a good excuse to take a break from chopping, catch a little rest before resuming with a more effective blade.

Here's to phenomenal chopping, slicing and to your health...

 

[tikkidaddy]

Very careful and judicious use of any power tools[/B], as over polishing/sanding has been an issue IMO. My ASTK seemed to have this issue also and it is a villager, which surprised me. Once sharpened, it was strong and hard, but the edge seemed a little soft before that.

- TESTING prior to shipment. I strongly believe every field-rated HI khuk should be thoroughly tested prior to leaving Bir Gorkha. They should go through the testing regimen Uncle Bill so strongly recommended. Namely: the flex test, whack test, and chopping test. This would give the kamis and shop manager immediate feedback, which I believe is crucial in this case. Once the blades cross the ocean it's too late to salvage them. Plus, having the shop manager take a blade from a kami and hand it back to him after five minutes of testing with chips/rolls/bends/cracked bolster/etc. would be a strong incentive for them to get their act together. It would also help identify poor quality metal which could otherwise slip by unnoticed.

I appreciate the opportunity to openly discuss these issues. I can't really see technique being the main factor with failures. I must confess I'm still learning about khuks and the proper ways to use them though. Still, I believe many folks here will think of the absolute abuse shown on BF every day in video and pics when this theory is brought up. ESEEs and Beckers are beat mercilessly without regard for angle or support, as well as being batoned into one another, and chips or severe damage seems rare. The success of HI is something we all want, so I feel all angles should be evaluated. Again, I'm glad we're discussing this as user feedback is paramount IMO. Thanks.

Agreed...all HI KHUKS MUST PASS THE UNCLE BILL TEST SET B4 AND AFTER SHIPMENT---MINE DID

 

[BILLB OKC]

"TESTING prior to shipment. I strongly believe every field-rated HI khuk should be thoroughly tested prior to leaving Bir Gorkha. They should go through the testing regimen Uncle Bill so strongly recommended. Namely: the flex test, whack test, and chopping test. This would give the kamis and shop manager immediate feedback, which I believe is crucial in this case. Once the blades cross the ocean it's too late to salvage them. Plus, having the shop manager take a blade from a kami and hand it back to him after five minutes of testing with chips/rolls/bends/cracked bolster/etc. would be a strong incentive for them to get their act together. It would also help identify poor quality metal which could otherwise slip by unnoticed."

I totaly agree with the Uncle Bill testing regimen !