Is knife making worth it?

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I was told this weekend at the Heartland Knife Symposium that "knifemaking is a lifetime of buying tools then you die". That's was from a master smith.
 
gixxer1237 said:
I was told this weekend at the Heartland Knife Symposium that "knifemaking is a lifetime of buying tools then you die". That's was from a master smith.
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Funny. Most of us make our tools, though.:p

It is my belief, that knifemakers tell other folks about the woes to offset the guilt they feel about getting paid for something they love to do.:thumbup:
 
for some reason i think of eating: some people like to spend money to dine in a good restaurant, some think that, to enjoy their favorite meals, they should learn to cook it themselves.
 
I have to preface this by saying that I'm not a knifemaker. I am interested in learning the basics (and more) so I can make knives for myself, but have no aspirations to ever try to make a living off it. I do have a lot of experience with handicraft businesses in general, though, so I'm speaking in pretty broad terms here...

Unless they are carpenters or go into some other such profession, most craftspeople out there do not make their full-time living at it. For the sake of this discussion, I'm using the term "craftsperson" to mean people who make objects to sell. The most common thing is to have a day job, and both learn and work on the craft at night and on the weekends. Once you build up enough skill, you might want to start selling some of what you make. The only time you would take it full-time is if the ongoing, regular demand for what you make far outstrips the free time you can dedicate to it, and you can clearly make a full-time living at it. Most craftspeople never reach that point.

The successful ones - both full-time and part-time - tend to put in the time to learn how to effectively market and advertise their products. There are very few businesses where customers just come to you out of the blue - the "build it and they will come" philosophy rarely works. They also learn good, solid business practices and other "support" skills to move their products, and spend time with shipping, inventory, quality control, etc. In other words, the full-time craftspeople generally only spend part of their time actually building the products, unless they have someone around to handle the rest of the stuff for them.

Sometimes dedicated hobbyists find out they don't like turning their hobby into a business - the fun turns into work. That's why it's always best to start these things on the side, and only expand when the sales warrant it. When you become a full-time craftsperson, you also become a business owner, with all the issues and responsibilities that go along with small business.

All of this holds true for painters, sculptors, writers, and other creative types, too. If you walk into a library or bookstore and look at the shelves, 99% of the authors you see have a day job, including many that are very well known.
 
I started a little over a year ago and I have made a small fortune with knives.

Of course...I started out with a large fortune. :) :) :)
 
Reality Check - (for beginning knife makers).

I have done a few weeks of research and have come to some apparent conclusions that it wouldn't hurt to bounce off the more experienced people here - If you would please correct any mistakes there might be in this info gathered.

Fact checking – some or maybe even most of the steels that look like they would have the best qualities for knives – best hardness, durability, toughness, etc are also steels that would present significant challenges when it comes to forging – because they are Air Quenching steels. Some of these steels are A2, D2, M2, S7, K390 and maybe CPM 3V. The main problem with Air Quenching steels is once they cool down below orange heat, they can become quite brittle if someone who isn't aware enough continues to try to hammer on / forge them, they can shatter.

These issues apply to forging, and not necessarily to stock removal

Any steel good enough to make a knife blade out of (5/32 by 1.5”) is going to cost from $13 (for a decent alloy) to $32 a foot (plus shipping) and higher for the very high end steels. Heat treating can run you from 10 to $20 a blade (+ shipping – both ways?) – for roughly foot long blades – more for longer. Decent scales will run you from $5.00 and (Much more) up, depending on the material. Depending on your method of production – labor can easily be 40 hours or more per piece. Equipment will run you several hundred for a basic setup, done on a shoestring budget, several thousand for a good setup. Supplies per piece (Gas / Coal, grinding belts,etc) could be anywhere from $ 5 to $20 and up. The more you can afford to sink into good equipment, the less your time and / or expenses per piece will be. The more you can buy or process in bulk – the better your rates will be. Shipping can / does add to costs.

So for a total length blade – in the area of 1 to 1 & 1/2 foot -
Min Nice Fancy High End
Steel $20 $40 $50-$140 $100-400
Heat Treat $15 $20 $25 $30-50
Handle / Guard $5 $20 $50-100 $100-$500
Sheath $10 $30 $40 or more
Supplies $ 5 $30 $40-60 $50-100
Totals $ 45 $120 $195-255 $320-$1,100 & up

Labor – 30-50 hrs 60-80 100 or more 150+

This does not even start to include overhead costs - such as insurance, taxes, an accountant, etc.

There are Large High end companies that are all ready making knives with name recognition that can produce a product similar to what you can do, at a cost that will be considerably less than that for a small shop. They might even be able to sell their product at a profit for what it would cost you just for the materials (with retail markups and multiple shipping costs) involved. Your potential edge lies in unique artistic designs, that happen to turn out very well (by skill or luck), that would reasonably command significantly higher prices, especially once you have name recognition, and / or (somehow get the Big $ to establish) a well equipped shop to drop your costs.

Did I get the basic Ideas / issues right?
 
Nope... Ha!

I just went through my entire business model again for 2014 and for me, those numbers aren't even close. If you are spending 40hrs and close to $1000 in materials on a blade you intend to sell ... and sell it for less than $5500 ... you shouldn't be in business.
 
A LOT of things did not come through in the table (the way it did not format right in the post) so I'll try to say the same things long hand -
For a minimum knife (12 to 18 inches) - with minimum tools - no power hammer, sending out for heat treating, buying your steel from standard suppliers mentioned here -
I'm seeing about or up to $20 for the steel with shipping, $15 or so for a heat treat (with shipping & a small # of knives sent), $5 for a good set of scales, and about 5 to 10 in supplies. Total roughly $45 in materials - Taking about / or up to 40 hours to do.

For a nice knife - again minimal equipment - Up to / around $40 for the higher end steel with shipping, Up to $20 for the heat treat (with Cryo) & including shipping, for a single or a few blades, guard & handle materials running around $20 - again including shipping, $10 for the sheath material, and $30 for the general / misc supplies - gas / coal for forge, grinding materials, etc. Total $120 area with 60 to 80 hours of work, steel, handle, sheath and all.

For a fancy knife - $50 to 150 for the steel - Purchased Damascus for example, $15 to 25 for a heat treat, $50 to 100 for handle / guard materials - I am in awe of what Jay fisher has done with some of his and know the base materials ain't cheap - Sheath materials - estimated at about $30, and supplies at $40 to 60, for a total of $195 to $255. Work likely to be 100 hours or more.

For a very high end knife - again using Jay Fishers work as examples of this - but assuming someone with a minimal setup were to attempt it (I know bad move until you can buy the equipment) -
Steel - $100 to 400 for the best you can buy, like Devon Thomas Damascus @ 20 (or more) an inch - for 18 inches = 360 + shipping, Heat Treat still around $20 but possibly higher toward $40 with more advanced requirements (coatings or ???), Handle / guard $100 to 500 - this could go into (example) a white Burmese Jadeite with Silver used in the guard & pommel, possibly some precious or semi-precious stones set into either or both....Sheaths for such a beauty - I figure your base materials would start at at least $40... and supplies again as an estimate could run from $50 to 100. For material totals in the area of $320 to $1,000 or more. Estimated work I would guess at at least 150 hours.

I have worked with precious and semi-precious stones (faceting or shaping)- and can certainly see the potential for incorporating some into a knife design would / could be incredible. I was almost stunned by some of the stone & / or semi-precious metal handles that I saw on Jay Fishers web site.

Now that I have clarified my terms and table - are the #'s still that far off?

P.S. I am very much in awe and have the deepest respect and admiration for the work that is being done by the smiths here. A huge portion of it is astonishing to amazing, and the beauty is in many cases beyond words.
 
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For one, when you get the skills to truly be high end, you should be making your own damascus.

A lot of the supplies you are overestimating, or you aren't figuring that some of these materials are one time purchases for several knives. And you won't be able to duplicate the fit/finish of a high end maker with the same efficiency on minimal equipment or with minimal skill.

If you are starting out, make one knife and see if people like it. From there make two or three and see if they like them too. Then make four or five and give a couple away so that you can get some real world feedback and change the problems you discover from that. Then make a few more and either sell them cheap, or give them away as well. Same reason.

Keep doing this until you start getting offers to buy your knives, or requests for commissions and the like. Then you can start selling them as you make them. If you are lucky, you will begin to cover the costs of materials for a couple more off the sale of those. Your equipment is going to be an investment. You won't sell enough starting out to buy nice stuff off of sales alone. Once you have the equipment and can speed up a bit, you can start to operate your shop at level. It still won't be an income generating business, as your labor will only be worth about $.80 an hour at this point. Keep growing, developing your skills and work into the high end materials that you don't want to screw up (have to be confident this won't happen. And as a new maker, you will screw up a lot of materials... it just happens.) Once your name is known, and people can google your work, you can probably start selling a few more. Get some stock on hand and go to a show or two and see how stuff sells. If you get cleaned out every show, and start to get more work than you can keep up with at a hobby level, then maybe its time to consider it as a business. And unless your wife is friggin LLLOOOOAAAADDDED you will need to keep your day job and treat this as a second job.

The guys who can focus on high end stuff have the skill and equipment to do it with some efficiency. They also have the NAME that can allow them to confidently sell for $1-2-3000... They also do a lot of other work on the side. Series of smaller EDC knives as an example. They also put in the legwork going to events, hammer-ins, shows and the like. This is not a money making business for a start up. And you can't just say 'I am going to make high end knives and sell them for a thousand dollars' right off. There are a lot of posts covering the realities of the business that I didn't even mention. Things like insurance, accounting, taxes, etc... Trust me, just like every other job, you have to work your way into it. Pay your dues so to speak, spread your name and your product, and grow along with it.

Cheers!
-Eric
 
Wonderful advice and Input Eric - frankly that was exactly what I was looking for. Thank You.

I did check out your site and found your work and designs quite impressive.

If this picture will post - here is one of the knives I have done.
Damascus%20with%20Purple%20Heartwood%203.jpg
Image did not - here is a link. Guard is shield shaped, handle - purple heartwood, blade Damascus, pommel hardface - that I know I could have worked a bit more for a more perfect shape,
 
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My pursuit of wilderness skills education, carrier in martial arts, machine shop, engineering, design and sales background gave me a solid foundation. I treated it like a business from the beginning... invested time and money into it for the first few years and it has been good to me. If it is going to be your source of income, work smart and more importantly, plan smart. I would be broke if I depended on 40hr+ knives with exotic materials to generate profit. I do have special projects that I work on a little at a time but my bread and butter(which also happens to be my passion) are in blades that take much less time to complete.

A typical day for me is 7am to 6pm in the shop, plus a couple hours with books and computer work at night.

I can forge, grind, and HT 4-6 mid-sized blades in a day(with some 10min trips at night between tempering cycles.)
The next day, is sanding, finishing, fittings and handles
Final day is sheathwork.
Package and ship on day 4

That said, I always have knives on the go in each work station and shoot for 6 knives/week. Some weeks, I'll only ship 4 blades ... other times, 12-14 knives will go out the door.

My strategy thus far, is to keep the amount of personal investment(time,money,skill) for the "bread and butter" blades, at a level that makes good business sense, without compromising quality... or integrity. What I mean by that, is carefully running prospective future endeavors(pattern welding my own billets, folders, engraving, etc...) through a business model to forecast/test the viability, BEFORE jumping into it. If I am not going to recoup the cost of the labor(learning curve) and resources it takes to make damascus... I'll have to hold off until I can find a way to make it work. It is a compromise I HAVE TO MAKE in order to keep doing what I love to do.
 
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How serious are you talking about. I am just a hobby and the more I do it the more materials and tools I need to buy and I am a college student so not a lot of income. It is cool as a hobby but I need to get better to so I can start selling knives to pay for supplies, but I would not break even for quite awhile just because of the upfront costs I have shelled out. Basic everyday tools that I will use throughout my life, but at the moment I would need to crank out quite a few knives. Take some classes, get a mentor, be patient. It feels great when you finish one knowing you turned some bar of steel into a knife. Your carving and shaping metal, it can be fun but very time consuming. You can always start off fairly inexpensive with hand tools. Look up Gough Custom as he was one of the first tutorials I watched numerous times even though there are many other great ones.
 
I don't have much to offer.

What comes to my mind when I think about knife making and money is that I pretty much HAVE to make at least a few. My equipment blows, and I have very little in materials, but if I stop at one or two, it'll be the most expensive knife I've ever owned, and I've owned some pretty expensive knives. Fortunately most of these costs can be watered down by simply making more knives. The good news for me is that I have no plans to quit.

I can't offer direct experience for obvious reasons, but I do watch a few makers. One of the very good strategies that I've noticed is (when you're at a suitable place in your making) to buy the 3 year knifemaker membership and securing your own forum. I could go on forever detailing how I think it could be utilized to your own benefit, but honestly, the best thing to do (imo) is to watch those forums and how they are used. By doing so you get an insight on how the prolific makers work their business model. Just paying attention to those have answered a ton of questions that I didn't even know I had.

Not really sure why this topic is so interesting, bordering on important, to me, but I find it endlessly fascinating.

Good thread.
 
I retire in 4 yrs. I am planning to buy the rest my tools and be stocked (as much as possible) on supplies by then, while making and learning as I go.I do this as a hobby, I have interest, I hope I can make some cash to supplement my income in the future if not who knows...... I have to admit reading this post was depressing.
 
Rick - I took a look at your site and your work is just amazing. The Indian blood in me felt a strong affinity for what you have done. I'm still very curious how you got the delicate but so very natural looking surface patina's on your blades, and just love the Marchete. There must be a good 2 ft of 5160 in that piece, and if you were somehow able to turn that out along with other pieces within a week - my jaw is about on the floor. It would be an amazing education (for anyone) to watch you work. If you ever happen to post a you tube video please let me know.

At this time, my equipment is limited to a couple of hand grinders (with assorted blades), a diamond trim saw, vise, forge, anvil, a small belt sander, an Arc welder and of course hand tools. I have several fairly nice pieces of steel, some Damascus, M2, D2, 3V, 52100, 1080, AEB-L, etc., Some very nice exotic wood scale material, and jades ranging from greens to white to purple - that could all become handles, or guards, along with several stones that could easily find themselves in the right designs. Right now I'm working with this as a hobby along side my day job, and allowing the designs / inspirations to flow as they will.

Like your mention of a viable business analysis of a potential 'road' before going down it - I've done a decent amount of research on this subject. The input received from people here from all directions, has been the most enlightening. Thanks for your comments.

David
 
Ok, I have read this whole thread and there is soo much good stuff here. It is nice to get a glance into you guys lives and thoughts. just to get to know each and every one of you a little more.
I feel that I love knifemaking far to much to try making a living at it. Because then it becomes a job. I did for a while, before my wife died, the orders just poured in and I got to the point that I didn't enjoy it anymore. So I quit taking orders.
Now I go out and make what I want and make it for me.
Every one that I show to anyone sells then I have to make me another one. But I know they I can always sell them if I want a little extra money.
I am 68 yrs old [march] and live alone with 2 rat terriers and a choc lab. every thing is paid for and all I owe is utilities, with 5 acres on a lake.
If the freezer gets low I head for the creek for some catfish and maybe a deer.
It really gets lonesome since Debbie died last spring , but I am loner so I will make it as long as I can make a few knives or one of a kind furniture pcs, toy boxes or blanket chess
You guys probably don,t know me but I feel that I know most all of you. I read shop talk and survival and gear forums at least twice a day.
I do stock removal mostly and YES IT IS WELL WORTH IT.
Just a glance at my knifemaking life-- Jerry
 
I make all my knives with the intent of keeping them. When they start to accumulate, I sell. I enjoy testing different steels and blade geometry. I don't make much money at it and consider my time free, since it's a hobby . The money made off of making knives wouldn't even compare to my day job, this is why I am a "Hobby" knife maker.
 
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