Jay Fisher's New Web Page on HT & Cryo

Thanks for the heads-up, Lu. I'm always torn about Jay Fisher because his site does have quite a bit of good beginner info, but I can't neither stand his attitude nor his aesthetic style (seriously, who puts his own quotes along with Homer, Abraham Lincoln, and Einstein and expects to be taken seriously? Who puts his own quotes on his website and expects to be taken seriously????)
 
I hear ya Neil.I guess I never paid to much attention to the quotes(I,m probably not smart enough) but there is no denying the guys talent.I almost consider his knives more on the art-functional side of things.Mainly for the high end collector.I found the article interesting because it seemed to be directed at knife makers.Good luck,Lu
 
Jay does have some good info on his site... but I can only handle being on there for so long.
 
Hey Rick, I hear that to, but on this particular article he brings up some particulars I don't think I've read anywhere else.
 
The article contains A LOT of info. Lots of definitions and explanations. I don't want to take away from the generosity of Mr Fisher compiling this info in one place. He has done a great job. However, in my opinion, some of it is questionable and misleading... but I'm just a guy using antiquated materials and processes... who is out to fool folks into buying my inferior knives because of a certain look or outdated forging process.:rolleyes:

- Hyper/hypoeutectic should be eutectoid(chalk it up to a repeated typo, because he defines the two separate terms early on)
- The improvement percentages seem outlandish(Cryo-treated O1 shows a 418% increase in wear resistance? D2 shows an 820% increase?... Really?)
- There are no citations provided for statements like "... proven by highly specific and controlled technical scientific studies"

There are many other passages that had me scratching my head or rolling my eyes. But Jay is doing an overall good thing for the knifemaking community and probably has the best of intentions. He is also not here to defend any criticism. I am also not qualified to methodically dismantle claims that just don't "sound right", to me. So, take my input with a grain of salt and all due respect to Mr. Fisher.
 
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Agreed on those improvement percentages,wow. He also does seem to go out of his way to knock the heat and beat crowd.Must be a long,bitter, ongoing back story on that.
 
Thanks for the kind words those of you have had about my new page. Sorry if I butted in.

Rick, I understand the question of terminology; and I've edited the six mistakes I found on the page.

Please don't try to read into any "long, bitter, ongoing backstory" about my website or opinions. I started by hand-forging, and still do a little from time to time, and have some great friends (one is a founding member of the Guild) who forge blades. We have great discussions and share ideas, and even have exchanged equipment! The clarity I try to present is one of education, mainly for my clients and knife enthusiasts who have read in many places (I wonder where...) that hand-forged blades in hypoeutectic steels are somehow superior to extremely high alloy steels, which is incorrect.

In any case, it's a great time to have access to so much scientific study, done by metallurgists with highly sophisticated equipment in laboratory settings. The numbers I quoted are correct, and if you wish to test your own products by tribological studies, I can give you the name of a company that will do that for you, but the data is pretty clear. Cryogenics work, and I'm happy to be living in a time when we can do this!
 
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He probably had his share of uneducated folks proclaiming the superiority of hand forged blades quenched in pregnant sloth urine. Edge geometry, ergonomics and user skill go a long way. Wear resistance is just another part of the equation. I am not downplaying the fantastic alloy steels available to us, today... but neither will I discount the long history and ongoing performance of plain carbon steel... whether forged or cut from stock. They are very different animals and I like it that way.
 
Rick Marchand said:
He probably had his share of uneducated folks proclaiming the superiority of hand forged blades quenched in pregnant sloth urine. Edge geometry, ergonomics and user skill go a long way. Wear resistance is just another part of the equation. I am not downplaying the fantastic alloy steels available to us, today... but neither will I discount the long history and ongoing performance of plain carbon steel... whether forged or cut from stock. They are very different animals and I like it that way.
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Wear resistance is a huge part of the equation, one of the main reasons to choose a highly alloyed hypereutectic steel over a plain carbon steel. Otherwise, you'd see carbon steel used in planer blades, shear blades, industrial applications, dies, cutters, valve seats... and you don't. Hand-forging will always be an attractive craft, but unfortunately, these high alloys can not be hand forged successfully for the many reasons I tried to detail on the page and on the site.
This discussion could quickly degrade into hand-forged vs. stock removal, and in my 35 years in this trade, I've been through that enough times to know it's a hopeless argument. Each maker should make his own knives in his own way, for his own clients, and if he wishes to describe why he does, he can do so on his own website. This is what I try to do. Let's hope all knifemakers do the same for their clients on their own sites; it's a place to freely express our reasoning and methodology. Thankfully, we still have that until they take the internet away!
 
Hey Jay... glad you chimed in... that is very classy. Please excuse my getting a bit flustered with some of the things in the article. I agree with you with regard to forging. In most cases, it provides no advantage and increases the possibility of negative gains. That said, I feel the way you address it paints a very negative image where there doesn't have to be. It is just a different material, manipulated in a different way. I for one, will never claim the superiority of plain carbon steel over high alloy. I worked in the tool/die/mold industry for almost 15yrs and am familiar with tool steel performance. I remember when cryo was just making its way into the automotive tooling industry(at least in the Detroit/Windsor area.). It is fascinating area of modern metallurgy that I believe goes hand in hand with traditional methods and material used in knifemaking.

There is a difference between eutectic and eutectoid. One deals with liquid to solid transformation and the other, solid to two solid phases. When you are speaking of heat treatment with regard to martensitic transformations, I believe eutectoid is the correct term to use.

I believe you when you say the numbers are correct... I just have a suspicion that 800% increase in wear resistance as recorded in the lab doesn't translate to a 800% better knife in the user's hands.
 
JayFisher said:
Wear resistance is a huge part of the equation, one of the main reasons to choose a highly alloyed hypereutectic steel over a plain carbon steel. Otherwise, you'd see carbon steel used in planer blades, shear blades, industrial applications, dies, cutters, valve seats... and you don't. Hand-forging will always be an attractive craft, but unfortunately, these high alloys can not be hand forged successfully for the many reasons I tried to detail on the page and on the site.
This discussion could quickly degrade into hand-forged vs. stock removal, and in my 35 years in this trade, I've been through that enough times to know it's a hopeless argument. Each maker should make his own knives in his own way, for his own clients, and if he wishes to describe why he does, he can do so on his own website. This is what I try to do. Let's hope all knifemakers do the same for their clients on their own sites; it's a place to freely express our reasoning and methodology. Thankfully, we still have that until they take the internet away!
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Well said, sir. Again, I agree with what you say... just not necessarily with what you seem to imply. Planer blades, shear blades, die cutters, valve seats, etc... are not knives, used in the same manner or held up to the same expectations.

I don't want this to be a forged vs. stock removal thing either... lol. That has been hashed out time and again. Jay, you are one of the most generous makers out there with regard to freely up giving hard earned information. I do not want you to feel attacked because of it. I have some reading to do to perhaps, clear up a few concerns I have with what you've presented. I am not prepared to do that now but it is wonderful that you showed up here to help clarify. It didn't feel right to criticize your article without you around.

Don't laugh... There is no doubt in my mind that they'll try to take the internet away... again... lol.
 
Rick Marchand said:
Hey Jay... glad you chimed in... that is very classy. Please excuse my getting a bit flustered with some of the things in the article. I agree with you with regard to forging. In most cases, it provides no advantage and increases the possibility of negative gains. That said, I feel the way you address it paints a very negative image where there doesn't have to be. It is just a different material, manipulated in a different way. I for one, will never claim the superiority of plain carbon steel over high alloy. I worked in the tool/die/mold industry for almost 15yrs and am familiar with tool steel performance. I remember when cryo was just making its way into the automotive tooling industry(at least in the Detroit/Windsor area.). It is fascinating area of modern metallurgy that I believe goes hand in hand with traditional methods and material used in knifemaking.

There is a difference between eutectic and eutectoid. One deals with liquid to solid transformation and the other, solid to two solid phases. When you are speaking of heat treatment with regard to martensitic transformations, I believe eutectoid is the correct term to use.

I believe you when you say the numbers are correct... I just have a suspicion that 800% increase in wear resistance as recorded in the lab doesn't translate to a 800% better knife in the user's hands.
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Hi, Rick.
I understand the confusion about the suffixes, but the differences in the steels are clear. As you have said, "I agree with you with regard to forging. In most cases, it provides no advantage and increases the possibility of negative gains." This I know, as it takes some great finesse to hand-forge and not overheat, undertransform, and gauge the properties of the finished product by eye alone. This is why it will always be an attractive craft and skill.
I try to present facts on my website; I hope you do too on yours. I use to enjoy forging, torchwork, the heat, the plastic forming, the happiness that my results were tested to a hardness I shot for. But many years ago, I was inspired by my clients and the advancement of the craft to move into high alloy steels. Even today, the lowest alloy steel I use is O1, and it's hyper- and the version I use has tungsten and vanadium. By the way, vanadium is a great nucleating point for carbides, and most people don't realize how wonderful this element is in modern steels.

For many years I've heard and read over and over the advantages of forging, and most of the claims are rooted in history, tradition, and somewhat, in romance. Hey, I think it's cool too, and so is casting bronze and silver, and I do that, too, even though there are better ways to form these metals! But because my clients are determined to squeeze the very best steels out of me, I am committed to honor their wishes by working with those steels, understanding why they are superior, and presenting the reasons so they understand it. They are a pretty demanding lot, and they honor me with their business and patronage. They also ask me to clarify again and again all of those things they hear and read about steel superiority, steel treatment, and steel advances, so I'm compelled to do this for them. They want the truth, and the internet and access to innumerable sources clarifies these truths eventually. If that truth is painful, I understand that, too. There is no way to sugar coat or generalize steel property performance, the science won't let that happen.
It's clear that my clients are not your clients; and this is a good thing. I believe we all have standing here, and it's born out by our root businesses. I'm currently about 5 years in backorders, but still manage to put a few up to the public, and the success is due to my clients and my willingness to work with them. I know, as a full time maker, you get this. As long as we all make knives to the best of our ability and clearly present truths in our tradecraft, we'll continue to do well.
 
on that topic Jay, many metallurgists say that effective "and clean" vanadium alloying steels were one of the big jumps into modern metallurgy. In theory, the next big one would be niobium carbides, as they are even harder! Though right now they are struggling with the fact that in stainless steel, niobium as incredibly poor solubility. Maybe some advancements in powdered metallurgy could bring aobut a new age of super steel!

"my source" http://www.kau.se/sites/default/files/Dokument/subpage/2010/02/21_269_287_pdf_18759.pdf

And on a different topic Jay, you said you buy fine woods on your website. I sell a lot of seriously beautiful and rare wood "just got in a batch of prime b/w ebony and redwood burl," but i attend a very large public university, so im SURE at least a few people have spammed you some dumb questions so my IP would be blocked. Any other suggestions for contacting you?
 
hellspawn415 said:
on that topic Jay, many metallurgists say that effective "and clean" vanadium alloying steels were one of the big jumps into modern metallurgy. In theory, the next big one would be niobium carbides, as they are even harder! Though right now they are struggling with the fact that in stainless steel, niobium as incredibly poor solubility. Maybe some advancements in powdered metallurgy could bring aobut a new age of super steel!

"my source" http://www.kau.se/sites/default/files/Dokument/subpage/2010/02/21_269_287_pdf_18759.pdf

And on a different topic Jay, you said you buy fine woods on your website. I sell a lot of seriously beautiful and rare wood "just got in a batch of prime b/w ebony and redwood burl," but i attend a very large public university, so im SURE at least a few people have spammed you some dumb questions so my IP would be blocked. Any other suggestions for contacting you?
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Great reference article! Thanks! It's clear that we are indeed making great advancements in these alloys; I only wish that more of the research was driven by a healthy United States steel industry, but I don't think the big steel behemoth that we once were will ever come back. In any case, some of these new steels are very exciting, and it's great to be alive at a time when the small individual studio or shop can use these terrific steels. Niobium could be the major upcoming addition to these alloys, if they ever solve the solubility issues.
The fly in the ointment of both high vanadium carbide and high niobium carbide steels is that the carbides pretty much restrict the ability to bring a steel to extremely high polish. The suppliers of these steels will tell you (even though the white papers and data sheets do not) that these carbides will not be polished, so seem to cause floating tiny ridges during heavy buffing, and instead of smoothing, you get little tiny lines on the surface that are unattractive in the finish. Of course, there is the possibility of diamond belt polishing, but that quickly gets into a high dollar finish no client can afford... but for wear resistance, truly these high alloys are king.

About the wood: I currently have over 50 different kinds of wood, and am not sure I'll ever use what I have! So many of my clients request gemstone and manmade materials; I've really got to use some more of my woods... maybe one day, I'll go on a wood handle knife building spree, but that won't be for the next several years. I've had guys wanting to give me entire persimmon trees just for coming to pick them up, and I've had to refuse; no room! Thanks for your kind consideration, though.
 
JayFisher said:
G I only wish that more of the research was driven by a healthy United States steel industry, but I don't think the big steel behemoth that we once were will ever come back.
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Part of the problem is what is focused on in school. Like I mentioned, Im in college right now, going for a degree in chem to pursue a masters or PhD in metallurgy. I got interested in it because a family friend is himself a metallurgist.

The thing is, metals are now seen as an "old mans" field of study with all the focus on carbon fiber and plastics. The American field is incredibly open and has the room to expand and really make some great metalurgic breakthroughs, but a lot of the metallurgists are retiring now, as It was a big deal during the cold war. We had a boom, and now young people are told they have to study the most modern fields there are.

My view of it is that steel will always have a place in industry, which is why its what i plan on studying. Knives are right now one of the few ways to get the all important real life experience a lot of up and coming engineers are missing when it comes to alloy steels, heat treating and understanding how metals react to stresses and procedures.

So i guess, will the great American steel companies resurface? If the things we tell our young people about their future dont change, no. But as we "the current college students" start to see the over flowing computer engineering departments and worthless philosophy degrees, its possible metallurgy may be a haven. So we will see.

And off topic, "or is it on topic?" I love your knives Jay. Its rare to see grind lines that damn pretty. Too bad you dont have any visitors at your shop. Im sure its one hell of a place.

Ben
 
...All I know is, you won't catch me making or carrying a knife for rough field use, in high alloy highly polished stainless with a stone handle.
I must be unaware of what a superior knife is...
 
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