Just recieved this e-mail.....

Originally posted by munk
I'll pass - except where Yvsa is concerned. He KNOWS the function and position of the Warrior and his duties in Human society>>>


I have no first hand experience of war. Or the kind of service of one in the military. I do know history is full of men fighting for freedom while other men give it away.

I do know the first Bill is Freedom of Speech, backed by second, the Right to Keep and Bear Arms.

munk

I've stayed out of this today until now. Just to clear the air about the Freedom Of Speech. That has never been the issues with
Rust.

I agree with Bill's stance on Freedom of Speech and support that belief myself.
Once again The issues I've had with Rust has never been about Freedom of Speech just to make sure everyone understands.
If you really want to know what happened that soured me and several others on Rust all you have to do is do a search on his posts.
Rust convicts himself and doesn't need me to help him.
From now on he is on my ignore list.
The rest of you can associate with him if you like.
Just beware when he jumps up and bites you on the ass it was me that warned you all.
Rust is a Troll, has always been a Troll and will always be a Troll!
And you can bet your sweet bippy that he will be back. His kind always do.:(
 
Originally posted by Yvsa


...........has always been a Troll and will always be a Troll!
And you can bet your sweet bippy that he will be back. His kind always do.:(

The woods are full of 'em. :barf:
 
beararms.gif

Yvsa ...you didn't express how you feel about the 'Right to Keep and Arm Bears'?
 
Time for a little humor and thanks, Bill.

As a kid 50 years ago when I swore under oath to defend and uphold the constitution of the United States I took that oath very seriously and still do. I see our sworn enemies take advantage of the fairness and goodness of our rules of government and it gives me the ring$ss but when I back off and settle down I KNOW it must be this way or all is lost and that every man who ever gave his life and/or limb or blood, sweat and tears for this country and its way of life has been wasted. I for one will do my best to see that this does not come to pass.

What I am trying to get across is not the matter of issues but the importance that the issues have a right to be aired.

If you knew how I agonized over every thread I've deemed necessary to delete I don't think there would be a single man among you who would put up a thread or post that would put me through such misery.
 
Uncle,

I can only imagine what you have spared us in your capacity as Moderator, and appreciate the difficulties of your doing that job. I'm also pretty sure that a lot of others feel that way.
 
Originally posted by Bill Martino
Time for a little humor and thanks, Bill.

As a kid 50 years ago when I swore under oath to defend and uphold the constitution of the United States I took that oath very seriously and still do.

Snipped for brevity:

I for one will do my best to see that this does not come to pass.

What I am trying to get across is not the matter of issues but the importance that the issues have a right to be aired.


Bill I agree with you!!!!
I have said it before and am saying it again, "It isn't the free speech that I have a problem with."
It's someone who was born and raised in Canada that believes in the Canadian laws and that no one should have the means to protect themselves with And then to top it all off, comes in here after the World Trade Center Massacre and tells us to, "Get over it." and that, "We should talk it out with the Muslim beasts that did the deed."
Well pardon me, but no one is gonna tell me that and me forget it like nothing happened!!!!


If you knew how I agonized over every thread I've deemed necessary to delete I don't think there would be a single man among you who would put up a thread or post that would put me through such misery.

Bill as I've already told you I'm really sorry that this all had to come about at this time, but the enemy never sleeps and always needs to be defended against even at times of great trouble. This just happened to be one of those times.:(
See the last line in the paragraph above.
 
I know what you are saying and happen to agree, Bro.

Looking at things from my point of view what would you suggest I do?
 
Is everyone aware that out in the net, and in ACADEMIC circles, leftist perception is that the US deserved to have it's trade center blown up? That our war on terror is the act of an aggressor; us? This view may be in the minority, though not neccesarily in Canada or Europe, but it is not scarce.

munk
 
Originally posted by Bill Martino
I know what you are saying and happen to agree, Bro.

Looking at things from my point of view what would you suggest I do?

I cannot speak from your point of view Bill as I haven't lived your life and had your experiences but, whatever happens, you may not do it right now, but in the end you will do what is right and what should have been done in the first place.
 
Originally posted by munk
Is everyone aware that out in the net, and in ACADEMIC circles, leftist perception is that the US deserved to have it's trade center blown up? That our war on terror is the act of an aggressor; us? This view may be in the minority, though not neccesarily in Canada or Europe, but it is not scarce.

munk

There is a more reasonable 'leftist view' (since I'm a 'leftist', I can speak for it) that the USA is an aggressive nation and sometimes takes unnecessary action (focussing on Iraq right now seems rather odd) and, not unlike other Western powers, engages in some rather dubious foreign actions (I'm speaking about covert things, not 'the war on terror'); and that the World Trade Centre attack is, in part, a result of some of these actions. But that in NO WAY condones or justifies that attack. The senseless slaughter of innocent people, American or otherwise, is never justified.

I'm not sure which academic circles you're running in (or getting this viewpoint from) - some of them, if they're being correctly conveyed, may be making the false logical leap that because a horrendous action may have reasons behind it that those reasons justify it.

Just wanted to give a more sensible 'leftist' view.

--B.
 
As ironic as it seems if I understand the constitution correctly if Osama Bin Laden himself came to the US we could bust him and execute him but we would be obligated to allow him to say whatever he had to say.

Berk, tell me if I have read the law improperly.
 
Originally posted by Bill Martino
As ironic as it seems if I understand the constitution correctly if Osama Bin Laden himself came to the US we could bust him and execute him but we would be obligated to allow him to say whatever he had to say.

Berk, tell me if I have read the law improperly.

Bill in this case it wouldn't matter what the law says. The US Gubbiment would do like they're doing with the "detainees" now in Cuba. However in the end Bin laden would be executed.
 
I like the end result and we all know it's coming but to get to the end result you have to play the game by the rules, even if it's a waste of time and effort.
 
There is a more reasonable 'leftist view' (since I'm a 'leftist', I can speak for it) that the USA is an aggressive nation and sometimes takes unnecessary action (focussing on Iraq right now seems rather odd) and, not unlike other Western powers, engages in some rather dubious foreign actions (I'm speaking about covert things, not 'the war on terror'); and that the World Trade Centre attack is, in part, a result of some of these actions. But that in NO WAY condones or justifies that attack. The senseless slaughter of innocent people, American or otherwise, is never justified>>

Yes, beoram, but I was putting the farthest reach of 'left' opinion up for a purpose. It was deliberately crude and you were not included in the sweeping. Nor was 'reason'. My point is you can tell stupidity what you think of it, but you can't get rid of it. You can ignore it, but can't ban it. And the damn shame, or the blessing, is that soldiers who sacrafised and died did not do so in vain, but so that people would be free to make wise or stupid choices.

munk
 
Originally posted by beoram


There is a more reasonable 'leftist view' (since I'm a 'leftist', I can speak for it) that the USA is an aggressive nation ...........
Just wanted to give a more sensible 'leftist' view.

--B.

USA aggressive? No, I don't think so. Nazi Germany was aggressive and Japan was aggressive. No, the US is not aggressive. We just sometimes wait too long to take action or, when action is taken, do it half arsed. Witness Vietnam and Korea.

Of course that's IMHO, as a red neck conservative from West Kentucky who has been told I stand somewhere to the right of Attila the Hun. :p
 
Nicely said.

Since I've been there and done that I can say with a fair degree of authority that our foreign policy has been sadly lacking, primarily because we do not understand the people with whom we are trying to deal with, and ignorance makes for poor decisions and actions based on poor decisions seldom work as we would like.
 
Originally posted by Semper Fi


USA aggressive? No, I don't think so. Nazi Germany was aggressive and Japan was aggressive. No, the US is not aggressive. We just sometimes wait too long to take action or, when action is taken, do it half arsed. Witness Vietnam and Korea.

Of course that's IMHO, as a red neck conservative from West Kentucky who has been told I stand somewhere to the right of Attila the Hun. :p

:D :D :D

I've enjoyed being able to have civilised discussions between people of very different views - keeping an open mind, I've learned a lot here; I'm sad to see that recently some people have felt a need to turn nasty - but that's just an aside, and certainly not directly at any of the Cantina regulars, just to be clear :eek:

'Aggression' as such isn't inherently negative - European culture, and by extension, North American culture is inherently aggressive. Who are the nations who have engaged in colonisation, &c. (the USA has had and has colonies by the way, it just calls them by different names). This same 'aggression' is also what fuels the innovative drive which is largely Western - the innovention of new technology, &c.

Think about American expansion into the West in the 1800s - was that not aggressive? Lots of positive things came of this, but also negative things, e.g. the treatment of the Amerindian tribes.

But actually the sort of American aggression I had in mind was its covert aggression - I'm not counting the 'war on terror' or Vietnam or Korea or any official wars in this sort of aggression. And this aggression is not condoned by the American people at large by the simple fact that they remain unaware of it. A lot of it is economical, but that the economical stuff gets too complicated for me to get more than the most tenuous of grasps on, let alone explain. I can give one concrete example and that is the Maharashtrian Power Plant fiasco, which I've mentioned elsewhere. In brief, between corrupt officials in India and an opportunistic American power company (wait for it), a power plant (the 1st private one constructed in India) was built which costs the Maharashtran people several million dollars a year just to maintain (which is required by the contract which was signed) - when the power it produces no-one can afford - so it does nothing, just costs money without benefiting anyone other than the corrupt Indian politicians who managed the deal and the American corporation who built it. When Maharashtra realised what was happening, the sensible elements decided they were going to break the contract. The US Govt, on behalf of the American corporation, put severe pressure on India because of this - through the then secretrary of state (foreign minister) -- who, after his term of office, joined the board of directors of the US power company in question! Now you have to see a bit of corruption and economic aggression here. One more thing - guess which power company it was. Enron. Who, incidentally, was Bush's largest corporate contributor - just food for thought.

For non-economic aggression by the USA, see the various covert supplies of US diplomatic support, arms and military training to various tyrannical governments: Indonesia, in connexion with their brutal annexation of East Timor; Cuba; Columbia; Turkey (who began on 'suppression' of the Kurds [read: extermination] with US support); Iraq (who did the same to the Kurds with tacit US consent - remember the US used to be friends with Saddam). None of these are things which are known by the population at large, so it's questionable that the can be called 'American initiatives', since they don't involve any support from the American populace. You mention Nazi Germany - a tricky case, what percentage of the populace really supported Hitler? I imagine quite a number in the beginning, because Hitler didn't look like a bad fellow at first, but later on many people were simply too scared to do anything. Another example of the fact that atrocities tend to take 2 groups - those who committ them and those who stand by and let them happen for fear of action.

And which political party is office makes no difference - these acts have been carried out by Republicans and Democrats alike; so bleeding hearts liberal politicians seem to have no problem with illegal and illicit support of brutality either.

That's longer than I intended. I've get down off of my (hopefully innocuous) soapbox before someone kicks it out from under me ;)

cheers,
--B.
 
Semp, I don't like seeing "U.S.A." and "aggressive" in the same sentence either.

But, the reality is, the US has done some pretty s@#$$y things in the pursuit of its "interests". (I use quotes, because some of these actions seemed to come at the behest of our corporations - like the United Fruit Company - rather than in reaction to any real threat to the security of the American people.) The installation of the brutal military junta that ruled Guatemala for so many years and of the Shah in Iran, both courtesy of the CIA and American dollars, are two 20th Century examples.

A more recent, though less severe instance, is the apparent backing that our government gave to the ouster of Hugo Chavez in Venezuela (sp?) two weeks ago. Yes, Chavez had cozied-up to Saddam and Quaddafi
on the diplomatic front. (I'm saying here that I don't like the man.) However, he was/is a democratically elected leader who still has the support of his people. Every other democratic nation in the Americas condemned the event. We not only gave it verbal support, but may have been more heavily involved.

Historically, all major powers have engaged in similar actions (even Athens, the spiritual progenitor of our democracy). But, I wish we were better than that. I love this country, but some of its past deeds aren't anything to be proud of.

S.
Card-carrying NRA member and fellow-traveller with Beo
 
Spence - you get what I'm talking about. And you're right, all major powers (at least Western powers) have engaged in similar actions. I suppose better wording in these cases would be 'US government aggression' than 'American aggression', since the later implies some sort of consent on the part of the people.

The actions that governments take (which is particularly true of the US at the moment, simply due to its predominant economic and political position in the world...though the EU may be the beginning of a shift) for the benefit of large corporations are sickening. The foreign policy cases are particularly so, because they mostly involve supporting American business interest at the cost of human lives.

One more word on the World Trade Centre bombing and then I'll quit, I promise (or at least I'll try ;) ) - I think some of the negative sentiments from Europe (and the subsequent American astonishment) arise from a resentment on the part of some non-Americans at the American assertion that 'this changes everything'.
From the point of view of Europe it doesn't - because this sort of attack is a relatively new experience for America (aside from Pearl Harbour, which is similar, but I don't think had the same impact - just different I mean, not necessarily greater or lesser), but the UK and Germany, for instance, in the last century, have already experienced this sort of unhuman 'death from above' which falls on innocent civilians - so the NYC bombing doesn't involve a shift in 'world-view' for Europeans, because they've already experienced similar events.

But what some Europeans fail to realise is that it's perfectly valid for Americans to say 'this changes everything' because it does for them.

--B.
 
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