Knife steel

Strokes for folks. I'm not high-speed enough to notice the few % difference between most blade steels, provided they are of a reasonable quality. I could see swiss bianco possibly being involved in doing some other blade steel offerings, but those would be very $$ as a limited run. If your use runs into a different category, then that is totally fair. Each person has their preferences and needs.

I think Vic steel is better than some others in the production game, but its not just the steel, its blade shapes, size and thickness that play a big part of it. As a big thick car door cutter, they would be useless, but as a thin slicer, they are very good. Not too hard, so they don't chip, but hard enough that the blade doesn't feel like butter.
 
I carry a one-hander, a small CRK Sebenza Insingo. I've been doing most of my cutting with that, but I also still love my SAKs, and have for decades. I wouldn't change a thing about Vic SAKs. I carried a Vic Spartan for 10 years in Taiwan and after as my only knife. I never felt under-knifed. Don't underestimate the utility of a Vic SAK blade.

The whole super steel thing has gotten a bit ridiculous, though. Nowadays many on the forums say, for example, "VG-10 is a so-so steel that doesn't hold an edge." Guess what? VG-10 is a harder steel than anyone had in a pocketknife 30 or more years ago. So it becomes an exercise in trying to reach the next big thing, and thinking everything that was good before suddenly "sucks". As was already mentioned, the SAK steel is better than anything the mountain men and others used in the 1800s. And they used their knives harder and more than the vast majority of modern day urban knife carriers.

I'm glad that Vic has kept their steel the way it is. The only thing I wouldn't mind changing about them is for tougher Cellidor scales.

Jim
 
there are some points in that matter. for regular use people a 440A steel is fine as that can be resharpened with simple tools and not much skillset also it has a lower price point. but its 2015 and absolute sure a better quality steel and sharpening tools needs be used for the future, 30 years ago that may have worked as it was better than averange, ouer days its the low end. plus high end limited editions with best steel possible are needed as well. we will see what will come.
 
I'd like to see my SAK with bucks 420hc, but I'd rather leave the SAK alone than use some silly steel that needs home setups to sharpen. I like the fact that the knives I carry can be sharpened to a workable edge using a relatively smooth rock off the ground. When I'm doing outdoorsy stuff I have my Buck 110. I recently acquired a Buck spitfire one hand knife to carry with my SAK. I find now that the novelty of the one hand knife is wearing off, I'm leaving it at home more. I only ever carried one knife in my pocket and carrying two just seems silly. I'll always keep a SAK handy.
 
My take...

I wish Victorinox would push their heat treat to get their blades in the 58Rc range.

In my experience, this improves edge retention noticeably and generally makes the edges a bit easier, not harder, to sharpen.

All of the steels I'm about to discuss below are fine-grained stainless. I find they all feel pretty much the same and how they feel depends on the Rc of the blades.

Victorinox Inox and Case SS (420HC) are advertised to be around 56Rc. I find these steels tend to roll edges easily at this hardness level, unless I use a fairly wide angle on them. I also find they tend to form hard to remove burrs when honing. So-called, wire edges.

Buck's 420HC, Leatherman's 420HC, Opinel's Inox (12C27), Mora 12C27 and Schrade USA Schrade+ (440A) are all (were) hardened in the 58Rc range. I find these steels will hold an edge without rolling at a thinner angle. I also find they sharpen up more cleanly, without forming that stubborn burr.

I see no advantage to running these steels at 56Rc. At least none that I've seen in use.

I see the difference between 56Rc and 58Rc as being very noticeable and would prefer to see SAKs run harder.
 
swissbianco said:
there are some points in that matter. for regular use people a 440A steel is fine as that can be resharpened with simple tools and not much skillset also it has a lower price point. but its 2015 and absolute sure a better quality steel and sharpening tools needs be used for the future, 30 years ago that may have worked as it was better than averange, ouer days its the low end. plus high end limited editions with best steel possible are needed as well. we will see what will come.
Click to expand...

pinnah said:
My take...

I wish Victorinox would push their heat treat to get their blades in the 58Rc range.

In my experience, this improves edge retention noticeably and generally makes the edges a bit easier, not harder, to sharpen.

All of the steels I'm about to discuss below are fine-grained stainless. I find they all feel pretty much the same and how they feel depends on the Rc of the blades.

Victorinox Inox and Case SS (420HC) are advertised to be around 56Rc. I find these steels tend to roll edges easily at this hardness level, unless I use a fairly wide angle on them. I also find they tend to form hard to remove burrs when honing. So-called, wire edges.

Buck's 420HC, Leatherman's 420HC, Opinel's Inox (12C27), Mora 12C27 and Schrade USA Schrade+ (440A) are all (were) hardened in the 58Rc range. I find these steels will hold an edge without rolling at a thinner angle. I also find they sharpen up more cleanly, without forming that stubborn burr.

I see no advantage to running these steels at 56Rc. At least none that I've seen in use.

I see the difference between 56Rc and 58Rc as being very noticeable and would prefer to see SAKs run harder.
Click to expand...

I don't have any "objections" to or problems with Victorinox including a bunch of new steel for its blades. Perhaps that would benefit retailers who would profit from steel variations to sell more knives just like some retailers who offer custom scales and other similar things. However, for the most part I don't believe most people purchase a SAK for these reasons but if Victorinox believes this would increase profits for the company and retailers then have at it. I'll stick with the current steel for what I want from a SAK and if I want a more exotic steel for my knife blade I'll purchase a knife from another manufacturer rather than a SAK which I use for completely different purposes other than for a cutting blade with an exotic knife steel. There are tons of variations of SAK models and I can only imagine what it would be like to add different knife steels to the mix. That may be fine for knife collectors, but I doubt it would appeal to the average purchaser of a SAK. At the same time, Victorinox is a very successful company and I'll leave it to them to determine whether they believe it would be a profitable move.
 
Last edited:
Vinifera said:
I don't have any "objections" to or problems with Victorinox including a bunch of new steel for its blades. Perhaps that would benefit retailers who would profit from steel variations to sell more knives just like some retailers who offer custom scales and other similar things. However, for the most part I don't believe most people purchase a SAK for these reasons but if Victorinox believes this would increase profits for the company and retailers then have at it. I'll stick with the current steel for what I want from a SAK and if I want a more exotic steel for my knife blade I'll purchase a knife from another manufacturer rather than a SAK which I use for completely different purposes other than for a cutting blade with an exotic knife steel. There are tons of variations of SAK models and I can only imagine what it would be like to add different knife steels to the mix. That may be fine for knife collectors, but I doubt it would appeal to the average purchaser of a SAK. At the same time, Victorinox is a very successful company and I'll leave it to them to determine whether they believe it would be a profitable move.
Click to expand...


Vinifera,

Just to clarify my statement above, I don't advocate that Victorinox change their steel. My understanding (happy to be corrected) their Inox is very similar to both Sandvik 12C27 or 420HC in formulation. My assumption (happy to be corrected) is that Victorinox could, if they choose to do so, push their current steel a bit higher on the hardness scale by way of changing their heat treatment.

Opinions differ on best target hardness for these fine-carbide, easy to sharpen steels. In the US, that debate is exemplif hied by Case and Buck. Case generally runs their stuff softer at 56Rc and Buck harder at 58Rc.

My sense is that this same debate is taking place among European manufacturers. Some, like Victorinox and L'aiguille run softer, in teh 54-56Rc range and others, like Mora and Opinel run harder, in the 58Rc range.

My understanding is that Victorinox has changed their heat treat in the past. I think they moved from 54Rc to 56Rc in the late 90s, early 2000s. I know for sure they used to advertise their Rc at 54 and currently advertise at 56Rc.

I agree with you that adding new steel to the mix seems like a difficult proposition. I suspect they may be forced there though with their new Army/Trekker line, if they want to stay competitive with modern knives.
 
Alnamvet68 said:
Exactly...why mess with success.
Click to expand...

+1

While we are trying to discuss the winning strategy that allows a knife manufacturer to sustain its business for the past 125+ years, making 20+ millions knives a year(IIRC), I would think that they probably have good talented people to know what's work best for the business and what do the market wants.
 
comis said:
+1

While we are trying to discuss the winning strategy that allows a knife manufacturer to sustain its business for the past 125+ years, making 20+ millions knives a year(IIRC), I would think that they probably have good talented people to know what's work best for the business and what do the market wants.
Click to expand...

I'm sure they do, and I'm sure they're out there testing what people like and want. They certainly know their marketing. In regard to that, the blade world of a century and more ago was different in technology, customer expectations, and competition than the world is today. All this is to say that if Victorinox wishes to hold its position, it can't ignore developments in cutlery technology.

How many of these developments it should adopt is what keeps the company execs awake nights. Or should.
 
One thing to add here is manufacturing limitations. Most of the high production blades are stamped from coils of rolled steel. This limits the alloys used because high alloy materials and high carbon materials cannot be coiled easily if at all and cannot be stamped successfully. This is why most of the PM and high alloy materials are laser or water jet cut.
 
Comis and AreBeeBee, I wonder to what degree Victorinox sales are holding steady or are growing world wide. The reasoning given for shutting down the Wegner brand was to prevent dilution of the brand but, at least from what I see at retail outlets in my part of the US, it's not like there are a lot of SAK competitors out there. If retail space at brick and mortar stores is any indication, SAK sales are severely impacted by a) modern flippers which appear to be THE standard work/utility knife of the day and b) multi-tool variants, particularly inexpensive imported Leatherman type tools that seem to be sold at every hardware store for $15 or less.

The most disturbing shift in retail real-estate that I see is at REI stores and other outdoor retailers. In the US, the SAK was once considered to be THE backpacking/climbing knife and when I visit REI or similar stores today, I'll find maybe 1 or 2 Victorinox offerings. I'll find tons of Benchmades, Gerbers and Leatherman products.

Please, please, please, I don't want to be attacked and I'm not saying that Victorinox sucks. Just noting that I don't accept at face value that their past dominance is a guarantee of current or future success. The market shifts and changes.

I'm also not suggesting that upping their Rc levels on their blades is needed to succeed or the thing most important to them to do better. I actually think that a re-evaluation of tools in light of more modern backpacking and climbing needs would help them. Fewer awls, corkscrews and can openers and more scissors and mini-pliers (they should make a fold out pliers head like their standard folding scissors, imo).

NYMet, the 12C27 that Mora and Opinel use and the 420HC that Buck, Case and Leatherman use are both rolled and stamped, just like Victorinox's Inox is. They (with exception of Case) all push their Rc levels to 58 and I suspect that Victorinox could too.
 
I don't claim to be a Victorinox expert, so anyone who knows better do feel free to chime in and I will stand corrected. I think since the 9/11 impact, Victorinox has been expanding its product lines, which nowadays includes clothing, language and watches. Those for sure will help keep their revenue growing, and in their words, they will have even more 'reserve' for the raining days.

My friend, I definitely am not attacking anyone, and everyone is free to entitle to his/her opinion. I guess my point is technologies and business landscape has been changing, ever since 1900, and if they could manage to stay on top all this long, they probably will know a thing or two about competition, and the importance of keeping up with technology and marketing(orelse they would have been out of business long time ago). I could only fathom running a giant knife business like this, what kind of difficult choices they have to make and how carefully they have to carry themselves over these years to be this successful.

Btw, they do have fold out mini-pliers on the 91mm model since 1985, and if you'd like to see larger pliers, do check out the 130mm Wenger/Delemont ranger models, which were out around 2007-2009.:)
 
I agree that its worth noting that victorinox has not been in business for as long as it has without any difficulties, and in fact has only stayed at the top of its game by making drastic or tiny changes as they are needed. I think they are very good at figuring out the long-term demands rather than trying to hit the short term fads. In fact there was a time where they sent paid employees to other companies as interns to learn new methods and production systems to re-vitalize the business (all above board, and those companies benefited greatly as well) It is very probable that something is in development, but I have no idea what that might be.

As far as loosing market share, I think that has more to do with a current "made in USA" hoo-raw that is going on, and companies like benchmade trying to get into different market segments, and gerber trying to get back to segments they were in 10-15 years ago. I don't think that is a bad thing, I think that victorinox will remain a gateway for a lot of people into quality cutlery. I do find it interesting how they are able to hit sales and production numbers that many other companies only dream about. I wonder if in 100 years leatherman tools are still around with same rep, or if benchmade is the pocket knife of mars colonists.
 
pinnah said:
Comis and AreBeeBee, I wonder to what degree Victorinox sales are holding steady or are growing world wide. The reasoning given for shutting down the Wegner brand was to prevent dilution of the brand but, at least from what I see at retail outlets in my part of the US, it's not like there are a lot of SAK competitors out there. If retail space at brick and mortar stores is any indication, SAK sales are severely impacted by a) modern flippers which appear to be THE standard work/utility knife of the day and b) multi-tool variants, particularly inexpensive imported Leatherman type tools that seem to be sold at every hardware store for $15 or less.

The most disturbing shift in retail real-estate that I see is at REI stores and other outdoor retailers. In the US, the SAK was once considered to be THE backpacking/climbing knife and when I visit REI or similar stores today, I'll find maybe 1 or 2 Victorinox offerings. I'll find tons of Benchmades, Gerbers and Leatherman products.
Click to expand...

I agree with this wholeheartedly, especially Gerber and Leatherman. But as you have mentioned here and elsewhere, the outdoor market is one that's constantly in flux, driven by both technology and trendiness & lifestyles. Gerber really latched onto Grylls and has used him for mass-market promotion of their brand as "the" outdoor knife, just as SAK used to be.

pinnah said:
I'm also not suggesting that upping their Rc levels on their blades is needed to succeed or the thing most important to them to do better. I actually think that a re-evaluation of tools in light of more modern backpacking and climbing needs would help them. Fewer awls, corkscrews and can openers and more scissors and mini-pliers (they should make a fold out pliers head like their standard folding scissors, imo).
Click to expand...

You betcha. I wasn't suggesting that bumping up hardness was the key to success for Vic, just that that is one of many items for which the company needs to keep a close eye on what the competition is selling — and move smoothly to meet new market demands. After all, SAK has a great reputation for competence (maybe more than it deserves), and that reputation can ease their transition into new designs, including those you mention.

Quality is important in an outdoors item because no one wants their knife/tool/whatever to crap out some cold, rainy evening, miles from the trailhead. While they aren't indestructable, Leatherman has managed to position itself as a solidly-made pocket tool; same can't be said for all the others. What Vic needs to have is a smash-hit outdoor/hikers tool, one that everyone says, "Yeah. I got to have one of those."
 
Last edited:
I think Victorinox hit a home run with their Spirit multi tool. I've owned and carried various Leatherman tools for about 12 years, but my EDC MT for the past 5 years has been the Spirit. I like its design, quality and solidity much better than the LM tools, which are also great, IMO. So I don't think that Victorinox has fallen behind at all. It takes them longer to bring out new stuff, but when they do it's really well thought-out.

Jim
 
pinnah said:
The most disturbing shift in retail real-estate that I see is at REI stores and other outdoor retailers. In the US, the SAK was once considered to be THE backpacking/climbing knife and when I visit REI or similar stores today, I'll find maybe 1 or 2 Victorinox offerings. I'll find tons of Benchmades, Gerbers and Leatherman products.
Click to expand...

I was in an REI this noon and checked out the knife/tool wall. Leatherman had about 1/4 of it, Gerber about the same, and SAK (14 or 15 models: Trekker to Classic) had about 1/3 of the display space. The remainder on the wall included a couple of Opinels and some sharpening tools and pouches. The floor display case had Benchmades and no Bucks in sight anywhere.

Perhaps local REI store management has a lot of autonomy on what they order from dealers, in that they can choose which models to carry based on local preferences. Boston may be a SAK-Wüste!
 
Just out of curiosity, I visited the local REI down the road in Rockville Maryland. Good selection of knife, with some blister packed Buck's, a few Benchmades, some small Leathermans like micra and squirts and a few of the big ones. Lots of Victorinox. Clasic's, tinkers, spartans, campers, hikers, cadets, and a few Swiss Tools. I think SAK's are still very poplar in the Washington D.C. metropolitan area.

If you see someone pull out a knife around here to open a package, if it's not a box cutter or their house key, odds are its some kind of 58mm Victorinox. Poor folks don't know how under knifed they are!:D
 
Idk all this talk about steel hardness, Vic being soft and all that. It's a tool. It's made to be a, multitool for a reason. I don't know about you guys but I'll use my sak to cut right through a car wire harness at the junkyard in a way that I'll never use my opinel and I'm just fine with that.

It serves its purpose well, I know the steel will just roll and I'll straighten it and it's thick edge out later.. If I touched wire to my Mora, it would be full of little chips so it is not a tool, it is a finess instrument, while the Sak deserves a place in the toolbox just as much as some models do in the lunchbox
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top