Knife steel

Kodak was rumored to have rejected going to digital photos because they already had a winning recipe.

Improve or die.

I keep reading that Vic's marketing team has hit the sweet spot, but my point is that there is a group of consumers (represented by me) that they are not attracting with their current lineup. They moved to a locking main blade, which was a great move.

Now, I'd just like to see a steel upgrade option. Shoot, just make the blade available and some of us would put it on ourselves.

Traditional purists will of course disagree.
 
Kodak was rumored to have rejected going to digital photos because they already had a winning recipe.

Improve or die.

I keep reading that Vic's marketing team has hit the sweet spot, but my point is that there is a group of consumers (represented by me) that they are not attracting with their current lineup. They moved to a locking main blade, which was a great move.

Now, I'd just like to see a steel upgrade option. Shoot, just make the blade available and some of us would put it on ourselves.

Traditional purists will of course disagree.

The comparison doesn't quite work. Kodak went wrong by not dealing with radically new technology, but changes in knife steel is just a tweak of current practices. There are, to be sure, a group of consumers who would welcome a SAK steel upgrade, but don't let the multitudes on blade forum fool you into believing it would be anything like a mass market. I could be wrong, but I think the worldwide number of potential customers would be too small for Vic to go through the trouble of producing premium steel blades. I love their locking blade models, though. An OH Trekker has become my most carried SAK anymore. That's an "innovation" I can get behind.
 
Idk all this talk about steel hardness, Vic being soft and all that. It's a tool. It's made to be a, multitool for a reason. I don't know about you guys but I'll use my sak to cut right through a car wire harness at the junkyard in a way that I'll never use my opinel and I'm just fine with that.

It serves its purpose well, I know the steel will just roll and I'll straighten it and it's thick edge out later.. If I touched wire to my Mora, it would be full of little chips so it is not a tool, it is a finess instrument, while the Sak deserves a place in the toolbox just as much as some models do in the lunchbox

I've literally hammered on my Opinel Inox (12C27 at 58Rc) and on my Moras. I've never chipped either.

I did put a dent in an Opinel banging it through something with metal in it. Easy enough to sharpen out.

If anything, I get better edge performance with these steels at 58Rc than I do at 56Rc. At 56 Rc (SAK, Case and Opinel Carbone) I have to use a more obtuse angle to prevent the edge from rolling badly.
 
I guess I wouldn't mind seeing slightly harder/ better steel, but that's missing the point of what it is that Vic does so well. Of course, it's not the best for all occasions. The screwdrivers are slippery, the blade is not hard or tough enough for major work, and the ergonomics are not ideal. But all that is a very small price to pay for the advantages - first of all, the very small price you pay. SAKs are cheap, especially considering the level of fit and finish, which is among the best out of any knife I own. The materials are quite good - not the best, but they hold up extremely well to normal use and exposure. They come in a vast range of configurations, so there's always one you like. Even in basic configurations, they are versatile and practical.

I can't think of a consumer product that even comes close in price/quality/utility. Like many people here I own a bunch of knives, but every time I grab a Vic I get the feeling I am using something special, even though they are literally made in the millions.
 
I've literally hammered on my Opinel Inox (12C27 at 58Rc) and on my Moras. I've never chipped either.

I did put a dent in an Opinel banging it through something with metal in it. Easy enough to sharpen out.

If anything, I get better edge performance with these steels at 58Rc than I do at 56Rc. At 56 Rc (SAK, Case and Opinel Carbone) I have to use a more obtuse angle to prevent the edge from rolling badly.

1) my opie is carbon

2) you hammer with yours if you want. These things are razor sharp slicers and I prefer to keep mine that way. I will do no such thing. I do have dents in the spine from trying to make sparks with rocks and use that portion to open bottle caps. So, it's rather soft still but does not need abuse on the thin edge
 
Cutting, screwing, unscrewing, bottle/can opening tool bottom. Banging, chopping, wedging, and whatever tool top. Right tool for the job.^^^^^^:thumbup:
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Want a SAK/Scout with high end steel? Get one of these....(top)

AG Russell Premium Scout in Micarta w/ a 154CM main.
AGRPS_zps2d2k270c.jpg
 
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1) my opie is carbon

2) you hammer with yours if you want. These things are razor sharp slicers and I prefer to keep mine that way. I will do no such thing. I do have dents in the spine from trying to make sparks with rocks and use that portion to open bottle caps. So, it's rather soft still but does not need abuse on the thin edge


Actually, I think the Carbone's are even better for a real, hard use knife. Pete (aka Stitch) on the Trad forum regularly posts pictures of the Opinel #9 he used to use when he worked HVAC. He used to use it for plunge cutting duct work. The slightly softer (56) carbon is tougher and less likely to hold a dent. I use my Carbones for really hard shop use.

Regarding battoning an Opinel, I've done several times just to get a feel for how far the knife can be pushed. The #10 can take quite a bit of stupid punishment. Not the sort of thing I do regularly, but I figure a) they're dirt cheap and b) I would rather practice in my shop than try to figure it out in the field if it's really needed.

Anyway.. trying hard to get this back to the OP's question... I think there's a decided difference in the target market for Victorinox SAKs and, say, Leatherman Multitools. The former are really pocket knives for light EDC use and the latter are tools for the trades that happen to have a knife blade attached. Leatherman sells several full-sized MTs with modern medium carbide power steels like S30V and that makes sense to me for people working in the trades who want or need the extra edge holding of those steels.
 
Actually, I think the Carbone's are even better for a real, hard use knife. Pete (aka Stitch) on the Trad forum regularly posts pictures of the Opinel #9 he used to use when he worked HVAC. He used to use it for plunge cutting duct work. The slightly softer (56) carbon is tougher and less likely to hold a dent. I use my Carbones for really hard shop use.

Regarding battoning an Opinel, I've done several times just to get a feel for how far the knife can be pushed. The #10 can take quite a bit of stupid punishment. Not the sort of thing I do regularly, but I figure a) they're dirt cheap and b) I would rather practice in my shop than try to figure it out in the field if it's really needed.

Anyway.. trying hard to get this back to the OP's question... I think there's a decided difference in the target market for Victorinox SAKs and, say, Leatherman Multitools. The former are really pocket knives for light EDC use and the latter are tools for the trades that happen to have a knife blade attached. Leatherman sells several full-sized MTs with modern medium carbide power steels like S30V and that makes sense to me for people working in the trades who want or need the extra edge holding of those steels.

I do think you're right about the target market for the Victorinox SAK's and Leathermans.

All the backpacking and sports shops that deal with fishing around here, all have Victorinox displays. They are a popular item with the sporting crowd and for the role of light duty edc pocket knife/tool. I see some Leathermans but not a lot in the hands of Harry Home owers do-it-yourself folks at the big box home improvement stores and such. I see more small Victorinox on keychains around here than any other knife. The SAK's pop up everywhere.

Over the past 10 years I've had to do some re-modeling of my almost 40 year old home. A kitchen remodel, some new appliances, and now with a contract on the house, some corrections made on some things that flunked the buyers home inspection. Just today, the almost 20 year old water heater was replaced by a licensed plumber. My point to this rambling of what I've done to the houses, in all cases when the contractor or one of his workers needs a blade to cut something, cable insulation, sheet rock, unboxing a new water heater, the only knife I see in the hands of contractors is a replaceable blade utility knife. Sometimes it's a folding one by Husky, Super knife, or a regular Stanley in a tool belt pouch or back pocket. In the past ten years I've never seen anything else but that. I've also never seen a Leatherman used. The pro's all seem to carry a selection of real tools for the job. Real screw drivers, Channel locks, Crescent wrench, Vise Grips. Since 2007 and a kitchen remodel, a bathroom remodel, and some other work, I've never seen a single contractor use a Leatherman.

The SAK market target is secure with the weekend camping/fishing crowd and the urban EDC'ers. For that crowd, the SAK steel is a perfect blend of real world edge holding, flex ability in mis-use, and easy sharpening. The SAK steel is pretty much even with the Case stainless steel, and not really too far from the CV that is a bit on the low RC scale. There's a heck of a lot of people who actually prefer an easier sharpening steel. And for most non professional contractor type of people, they don't really need much more. And for the real professional people, they just prefer a blade they can takeout and reverse or replace. The hard working pro's out there don't even want to spend any time sharpening a knife.

The only people who really want the better steel is the knife nuts who have been brain washed into thinking they have to have the latest wonder steel of the month.
 
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For what it's worth, I've used very inexpensive knives (<$7) to cut over half a mile of cardboard (3100') and still slice notebook paper. I'm certain a Victorinox could manage the same thing. For those who use the blade for slicing and cutting (it's quite thin after all) vs. scraping and such, try thinning the blade angle and be absolutely sure there is no burr remaining. Also, try finishing with a medium grit (Norton Fine India or similar). These 2 things allowed for a LOT of cardboard cutting.
 
I do think you're right about the target market for the Victorinox SAK's and Leathermans.

... in all cases when the contractor or one of his workers needs a blade to cut something, cable insulation, sheet rock, unboxing a new water heater, the only knife I see in the hands of contractors is a replaceable blade utility knife. Sometimes it's a folding one by Husky, Super knife, or a regular Stanley in a tool belt pouch or back pocket. In the past ten years I've never seen anything else but that. I've also never seen a Leatherman used. The pro's all seem to carry a selection of real tools for the job. Real screw drivers, Channel locks, Crescent wrench, Vise Grips. Since 2007 and a kitchen remodel, a bathroom remodel, and some other work, I've never seen a single contractor use a Leatherman.

...

The only people who really want the better steel is the knife nuts who have been brain washed into thinking they have to have the latest wonder steel of the month.

In the past decade or so, I have seen many repairmen/contractors for renovation or repair, but I have only seen one person carries a LM whom was responsible for installing the lighting.


For what it's worth, I've used very inexpensive knives (<$7) to cut over half a mile of cardboard (3100') and still slice notebook paper. I'm certain a Victorinox could manage the same thing. For those who use the blade for slicing and cutting (it's quite thin after all) vs. scraping and such, try thinning the blade angle and be absolutely sure there is no burr remaining. Also, try finishing with a medium grit (Norton Fine India or similar). These 2 things allowed for a LOT of cardboard cutting.

I have never tried to test how many feet of cardboards a regular 91mm SAK blade can go thru, but I do remember seeing other folks testing it, and it was a few hundred feet before it was too dull to continue.
 
For what it's worth, I've used very inexpensive knives (<$7) to cut over half a mile of cardboard (3100') and still slice notebook paper. I'm certain a Victorinox could manage the same thing. For those who use the blade for slicing and cutting (it's quite thin after all) vs. scraping and such, try thinning the blade angle and be absolutely sure there is no burr remaining. Also, try finishing with a medium grit (Norton Fine India or similar). These 2 things allowed for a LOT of cardboard cutting.

This kind of thing sold me on Vic ALOX back in the early 80's. Was going to help my Dad by cutting up some heavy water heater boxes at his plumbing shop. I pulled a Vic Pioneer out of my showcase and headed over. After cutting up about 12 boxes for the dumpster, that Pioneer would still almost take the hair off my arm...I was sold!

Still have it.
TheOrigALOX_zpse7856ff3.jpg
 
Easy sharpening steels for non knife nuts?

That argument cuts both ways and I think it actually slices better the opposite way from what people wrote here so far.

Non knife nuts don't sharpen knives. They use it until it's dull and then some. If it's way too worse they take it to some repair shop guy who sharpens it so fast that the blade steel turns blue. Advantage of course is that the knife will weigh 30% less after all the useless areas of the blade have been ground away.
The more advanced non knife nuts scrape it through some $2 fixed angle sharpener once in a while.
The non knife nuts have some bad electrical sharpener from midnight TV which also does scissors.

Thus non knife people would benefit the most from super steels which stay sharp much longer before they have to take it somewhere or mess it up themselves or simply buy a new knife. :-o

Knife nuts on the other hand are usually capable of touching up cheap steel whenever required.

Conclusion for me.
For sure supersteel for the non knife people
and for knife people whatever they want.
 
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Non knife nuts don't sharpen knives.[]

But when they do sharpen they often use a cheap (carbide) pull thru sharpener or the bottom of a plate/cup like they were once shown...

The influence of steel on edge holding is over stated I think. First look at geometry, propers sharpening, quality of the heat treat and manufacturing (e.g. not burning the edge at factory sharpening).
 
Non knife nuts don't sharpen knives.

Actually they do, just not to you're standards.

Keep in mind that we are maybe less than one percent of the worlds population. The knife nuts are the extreme edge that the rest of the world see's as weird. And they are right. The whole rest of the world is doing well with cutlery that people on this forum wold turn their nose up at. And their sharpening techniques are equally as mundane.

Ihad the great privilege of serving in the United States Army for 10 years. During that time I got to travel to some far off places. I saw people using everything from a river rock to a paving stone to sharpen their knives. Yet these people were far from knife nuts. They just wanted to cut something. In Italy, where we were TDY to Avianno Air Force base, I saw the old Italian ladies come out at about 5 o'clock when they were cooking dinner, and sharpenthier knives on the stone steps to the house. They had old dark gray bladed knives with misshapen blades from years of use, but it's what they had to slice up the lamb, beef, or whatever that was going to be dinner. They'd take a fw swipes and test it with a thumb, and go back into the house to make dinner. The knife would not have whittled hair, or any other silly test of sharpness that knife nuts like to use. But they didn't care. They just wanted to cut stuff for dinner. I've seen a workman take a mill file to a knife blade. Or a local contract worker at Wheelus Air Force base use the edge of a shovel to steel his Douk-Douk. It worked well enough to get a good using edge. In Vietnam I saw a guy use a river rock to touch up his knife. It got pretty sharp.

Last time we were visiting our daughter and family in California, I saw first hand how she keeps her knives sharp enough for her. I had given her a few Forcshner/Victorinox kitchen knives years ago. While making some beef stir fry, Jess decide her chefs knife wasn't sharp enough. She goes and strops it on a coffee mug bottom and goes back to work. I offer to sharpen it for her, but she says no, it's good enough. "Good enough."

To most people who are not knife nuts, that term describes their knives perfectly. "Good enough."

The truth is, most people just don't care if it's hair whittling sharp. They don't even care if it gets dull, as long as they can swipe it on something at hand and it works again "good enough" to get the job done. I used to obsess over how sharp my knife was, and I regret all the time I spent on medium stones, fine stones, ultra fine stones, smoother than a baby's butt stone, and which compound to run into a strop. Now I just use one stone or a coffee mug and get on with life. My knife is just sharp enough to shave arm hair, and that's good enough. It cuts rope/twine, cardboard boxes, fish bellies and guts, and plastic packages. It cuts everything I have to deal with in my 21st century suburban retired gentleman of leisure life style. It even cuts salted eel that we sue for crab bait while crabbing out on the Chesapeake Bay.

Att his point in life I actually avoid the super steels like the plague. Life's too short to obsess over things that won't matter in the long run. I want to spend my time going out and doing, not sitting home and sharpening knives. Most of the rest of the world thinks that way, judging by the amount of 'soft' stainless steel blades sold to non knife nuts. Most people just want to cut, and if it gets too dull to do that, they want an easy fix. A few swipes on a rive rock or paving stone and back in business. I would guess that Victorinox does a lot of market research. They'be been in business a very long time, and make more knives per year than any other three knife companies. They cater to a world wide market, from Japan to Europe, and they deliver what the vast bulk of the clientele wants. A knife that is good enough for most people, and is easy to sharpen.
 
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