Liquid Metal is here! well at least some prototypes

nhamilto40,

Thanks for your prompt and informative response. It certainly fleshes out the content and provides a better framework for consideration of the opinion you expressed and to some extent takes a bit of the sting out of tone of the first post.

I take exception to your statement "Ron's motives are unknown". I think that a reading of Ron's posts in this thread paint a fairly clear picture of his efforts and the circumstances involved, that he has put a lot of work on the project and is enthusiastic about the project and is still pretty open-minded despite his enthusiasm.

Also, personally, as I read the thread with some familiarity with his previous activity, conduct and demeanor over time here on Blade Forums the idea of his motives being anything but open and clearly stated is absurd. He has clearly represented his relationship, trial and tribulations with the manufacturor and to imply differently is unjust.
 
I must apologize for my outburst. But, having it said that I in any misrepresent myself or my motives is a very serious matter.

Never did I say that LM1 was a replacement for steel. In the testing video I state quite the opposite in saying that comparing it to the new steels would be unfair.

However I actually think my point has been proved. He stated the it is no better than your common knife steels. Considering that that cannot be said of the current line-up of non-magnetic materials, thank you very much.

In the end, the users will get to decide for themselves. I am sold on the stuff and I am a hard sell. Do any of you really think I would put my livelyhood behind a substandard product?
 

Let's see...
"You had better be willing to say that to my face boy!"
"I do not like being called a liar!"

two empty threats, one personal insult

"Unless you are willing to back up your slander"

one accusation of slander
"I suggest you go back into your troll hole and stop the keyboard commando junk!"

one accusation of trolling, one personal insult
"Considering your qualifications, you don't know jack ****!"

one personal insult
"I have had this stuff in my hands for almost a year now and have been working with it on a daily basis. You just read some numbers. Sounds like another Cliff Stamp slamming materials out of hand."

attempted personal insult?, by comparison to Cliff Stamp ?!?
"Actually, considering when this person decided to make his first post, I would say he is connected to Talonite or Stellite and has a personal agenda with the defeat of a replacement alloy."

failed mindreading attempt
"Tell ya what new comer. Let the market decide which one of us is full of it."

sounds good to me

"Several other well respected knifemakers have also helped me with testing. They have the same thoughts on the material that I do. I have notified them as to the presence of this thread and they will chime in when they have the time."

time to call in backup :)


total
2 theats
4 insults
1 accusation of slander
1 accusation of trolling



--------------------------------------------------

Ron are you sure that flinging threats, personal insults, accusations of slander etc. are the correct way to handle this "new comer/boy"?

Notice the only possible insult I have offered is my opinion that the positive proporties of this alloy (for this application) where being exagerated.

These sample look really good and I would personally like one purely for the novelty value.

That being said if these knives are as stated lm1 at ~34 Rockwell C they will be out preformed by even the cheapest noname stainless steel blades.

Please feel free to debate the issue instead of firing off insults etc.

Thanks
 
Originally posted by nhamilto40

......................
Notice the only possible insult I have offered is my opinion that the positive proporties of this alloy (for this application) where being exagerated.
Click to expand...

Take it easy. You started by posting :barf: signs in your very first post on these forums, then you openly acused Ron of misrepresenting the proprieties of this alloy. Don't be surprised that you pissed him off and he responded as he did.
He did not say it outperforms steel, he just sais it performs good for a non-iron alloy. The only way to see if this stuff is good is to have it tested by independent sources. Anyway, IMO Ron wouldn't say it's good if it's bad. It would be foulish.
This is not Whine&Cheese forum. A more carefull tone could lead to interesting discutions. I hope you see what I want to say and have a better continuation on the forums than the start.
 
My statement "Ron's motives are unknown" was in no way intended to be negative. I simply like to avoid making assumptions about other people's personal thoughts.

My psychic powers have proven unreliable in the past. :)

Sorry about any confusion.
 
The usefulness of liquid metal as a material for making knives will be revealed by the efforts of people like Ron. He is willing to put a lot of time and effort into testing liquid metal with the hope that it will turn out to be another option for those in the knife industry. His motives seem to go no farther than that; at least to me that is.

Testing of the type that Ron is conducting is very informative. Of course his findings would have to be reviewed by members of the scientific community for a BS in Metallurgy to not look upon them with skepticism. To tell you the truth, the skepticism of the scientific community doesn't amount to a hill of beans as far as I am concerned. Liquid metal being put through real world testing under the conditions that a knife goes through will tell me all I need to know about its usefulness as a material for making blades.

nhamilto40, you could easily turn out to be correct about liquid metal, but what you offer us is nothing but supposition. You have obviously not tested this material and have formed your hypotheses from what you have read and nothing more. Not a very scientific way of going about things. You are welcome to your opinion, but until you can show us something besides this opinion that indisputably shows liquid metal to be a poor knife making material, then an opinion is all its going to be.

If you had presented your opinion without trying to cast doubt upon the reason for Ron's enthusiasm, you would not have brought about the response that you did. You do not question a man's ethics when you know nothing about that man. Making Comments like...

Hmmm...

What is that I smell?
hype.
NASTY:barf: :barf:.
Click to expand...

and...

Ron's motives are unknown.
Click to expand...

are not going to get you any points around here.

Hopefully you will be a lot less accusatory with your future posts.

Now, having posted all of that, I would like to welcome you to BladeForums. The thoughts of a fellow knife lover that is also well versed in metallurgy would be very welcome here, by me at least, and I think by the rest of the members as well. Do not be disheatened by the comments that have been made to you here.
 
nhamilto40,

I have seen no false hype. Ron is and has been an honest, straight shooter. He has no reason to BS anyone on this product. He is fully aware of its pros and cons and is laying them all out in front of everyone. Can you not see that? Anyone who knows this art and science AND RON HIMSELF, knows the product will come through as said. I have held this product in my own two hands. It will work well as a blade material. There is no reason to come on here and start trashing an honest and worthwhile endeavour. As Rhino said, welcome to the forums.

-Jason
 
I will let the photos tell the rest of the story. After seeing the photos I do not think anyone will questions LM1s "brittleness", edge holding, or abrasion resistance.

Special note. Do not think that I over built this knife as is sometimes done to hype a material. I under built this knife on purpose. It is only 1/8" stock.

Link to photos


Also Jason was in my shop when I was throwing this stuff as hard as I could against the concrete floor. The LM1 showed no signs of damage but my shop floor is a little worse for wear.
 
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Well the bottom line is going to be what the new owners say about their LM1 blades so i don't see what all the fuss is about?

I for one am glad Ron posted this thread, i'm a hard sell like Ron and i love my metal knifes to no end, that being said i'm looking forward to knife makers like Ron making something new with LM1 or whatever. If it doesn't work out so be it, but we will never know if others don't push forward new ideas, this is not the dark ages.

Cheers!
James
 
nhamilto40,

I hope that you will note that most of the replies in this thread stemming from your first post have welcomed your presence even though expressing varying degrees of displeasure with its content and/or tone. My reading of your replies doesn't reassure me that your really understand why you have received this reaction.

To avoid misunderstanding I will tell you how it appears to me. Ron, a respected member here came into his virtual living room to share his enthusiasm and sense of accomplishment for a project which held a great deal of interest to some of us here. This he shared and held himself open for questions, explanation and conversation about the project. This he did in his usual all-up-front manner. This civil discourse was being enjoyed by all when the door opened and in walked a total stranger with uncivil manner whose contribution was the social equivalent of taking a dump in the middle of Ron's floor.

I didn't appreciate your performance and I don't think that many others of the assembled multitude did either.

I think that you probably have much to offer and hope that you will become a significant contributor. Even in disagreement, congeniality is greatly appreciated.

Whichever way you go, I wish you well.
 
After looking over the published data tables again I noticed that I had misformated the data presented earlier(swapped lm1 and lm2). The corrected data follows.

Code: 
                    lm2   lm1  440C  D2  A2  O1  S5
Hardness (Hrc)     ~34   ~50   56    59  60  62  59
Charpy (ft-lb)      18    6    26    21  41  30  138

So lm1 hardness is ~50 Hrc and charpy shows 6 ft-lb.

Sorry for misstating lm1's brittleness and hardness numbers.

For comparison I have included some typical blade steels at typical tempers and S5 just to show what is possible with plain old steel (data from Crucible Steel).

So these metglass alloys can be expected to be softer and more brittle than (production) steel blades.

I have not found any abrasion testing result for either of the metglass alloys; if anyone knows of any I would like to see them.

If there is a requirement to sacrifice blade proporties to get a non-magnetic blade it may be a good choice. In that case Cu-Be, beta Ti alloys etc. should also be considered.

An interesting proporty of these alloys (seen in charpy tests) is their tendency to throw showers of sparks and melt parts of the fracture surface when broken.

Thanks to everyone who welcomed me to this fora.
 
Now those kinds of statistics add to the learning that goes on in this type of thread and I appreciate them very much. Even with all the statisics mentioned, it is the testing that will prove whether this glass has potential. On paper liquid metal doesn't look like a likely candidate for knife blades and in the final analysis it may well turn out that it does not work. The tests that Ron put his knife through seem to show that there is something other than what can be shown by a hardness and a charpy test.

I will watch what happens with liquid metal with great interest. If something comes along that is better than steel for making blades, I will be all for it. If nothing ever comes along that does a better job, I won't be bothered at all. I like my steel blades.


Edited to correct a typo.
 
R.W.,

Has there been any consideration of using the coatings capabilities of the material or it's use as a composite for knives? This could dispose of the mold cost questions if they could coat a "core" base form to a thickness that would allow you to produce a sharpenable edge. Cosidering they tout it's superior bonding properties you may want to discuss this with them.

nhamilto40 has linked a LBL national lab site that provides some interesting information. I used to work here http://www.ms.ornl.gov/htmlhome/mauc/default.htm and also had wondered about the knife-making properties of metallic glasses (actually, I wonder about any material's knifemaking capability:D ) when I first started reading about them.
 
BS Metallurgical Engineering, UMR
Click to expand...

Thanks for the degree info . , and welcome to the forum . Now that all the BS in political correctness is over . What does UMR stand for , I only have a, BS Manufactured Product Relocation Engineering ( that would be for us common folk a Truck driver ) . I know RPI , MIT , G. TECH. etc . . And , what would your everyday job be ? Do you actually have hands on with this product or just as appears , looking up charts .

Now take this as you will but I, as you seem to be , am a straight forward to the point , individual .

Thanks for all the info. guys , I really did not know this stuff would even make a knife blade .

Regards,
Jerry

Edited because my degree left me unable to spell
 
R.W. ,

How does it compare weight wise to Ti or aluminum . You may have stated this but I seem to have missed it .

Thanks ,
Jerry
 
If Liquid Metal does make it into production knives, will there be some savings from the fact that it uses a mold? I don't know 100% of what goes into making conventional steel production knives, but perhaps some labor or finishing costs can be saved by LM's use of molds. Without extensive grinding and heat treatment, companies could realize greater output, quality assurance, and reduced capital equipment costs using LM that may offset LM's higher materials cost. (Sorry I can't help but think about the economics here; took too many econ classes in college...;) )

A few questions on the surface properties of LM1:

1. How does LM1 respond to being coated? I mean anything from epoxy coat to boron carbide or DLC. It may not need it but some people prefer coated blades.

2. As a noncrystalline metal, does LM1 exhibit lower coefficients of friction for a given finish?

3. How does LM1 take the various surface finishes available today? Mirror polished, double cut, stonewashed, etc. For instance D2 is reputed to not take a mirror finish too well.

A few heat-related questions:

1. Without crystal boundaries or grain, does LM1 exhibit better themal conductivity than metals such as copper or aluminum? I have in mind heatsinking applications (under 350 F of course) that would benefit from the LM1's use of molds to form precise shapes.

4. With regards to the Army trials of LM1 as a sabot material: doesn't the sabot experience extremely rapid heating when it penetrates armor? The internal shock and compression should heat the sabot to a high temperature very quickly as it goes through say an armor plate. Perhaps the effect is so violent and sudden that it wouldn't matter that the LM1 softens at this point. I'm only speculating here...:confused:

5. One reason depleted uranium beat tungsten steel when the army was testing sabot materials was that uranium is polyphoric (sp?). It flakes off and burns as it passes through armor (nasty for anyone inside the tank!). I don't suppose LM1 does this also? I might have the term mistaken.

One last thought:

6. Obsidian is still used as a cutting material today because when properly flaked it can take a monomolecular edge. Seeing how LM1 is similar to glass, can LM approach this ultimate in edges?

Thanks again Mr. Clark for answering our questions thoughtfully and to the best of your knowledge. While the use of LM1 remains to be seen, your enthusiasm for the project is clearly established. Good luck with the stuff!
 
UMR == UMR

Steeldriver

"1. Without crystal boundaries or grain, does LM1 exhibit better themal conductivity than metals such as copper or aluminum? I have in mind heatsinking applications (under 350 F of course) that would benefit from the LM1's use of molds to form precise shapes."

From the data linked earlier lm1 has a thermal conductivity of 6.0 (W/m K) (no thermal conductivity data was shown for lm2). Other common heatsink materials are Cu at 385.0 (W/m K) and Al at 205.0 (W/m K) source.
 
hso - I spoke with R+D at the possiblity of coatings briefly awhile back. I know that LM1 is used as a coating on boring bits (oil rig type), and the increased wear resistance has greatly improved the life of the drilling heads. My only concern would be how many sharpenings it would last before the coating would be gone from the cutting edge. Like I said earlier it does not hold an edge as well as materials like the Crucible killer Vs. The goal is to lower cost by raising production through the casting process.

I do not forsee a large market for custom blades from this material. The cost of machining is just to high. It eats through things like belts, drill bits and taps like it just got off of a hunger strike.

Jerry - it is much lighter than steel, about the same as Ti but heavier than Alum. What the specific gravity of LM1 is I do not know. I am sure that info is out there somewhere I just do not know where. However to it takes twice as much Ti to match the strength of LM1. So parts can be made twice as light and retain the same strength properties. This is why the micro electronics industry is all over this stuff. They can now make there housings much smaller than with the plastics they were using while at the same time making them stronger.

Steeldriver -

Darrel Lewis (BodyCoat) would be the best guy to answer this question. I know that Darrel has done some work with LM1. I would think that Diamond or Boron coating is out of the question due to heat considerations. Epoxy and powder coating should work just fine. My question would be, "why coat it". The only real points for coating is increased stain resistance and increased wear resistance. Considering the fact that LM1 is stain proof and is one of the toughest wear resistant coating, I would see no reason to coat. As far as "cool factor" goes (decorative coloring) LM1 can be anodized. This is due to the content of Ti.

Yes it does seem to have a lower drag coefficient. I really did not notice any differance in the cutting tests. The only time it seemed to show itself was when I cleaned all the tire resisdue from the test blade.

It is my goal to off set materials cost by moving to a more mass production style of construction. But also remember that LM1 is cheaper than Talonite to start with. So in the end it is my desire to offer a knife that is better than Talonite and is cheaper to produce.

As for surface finishes. I have not mirror polished it myself. The mirror finish really looks like a glass mirror. Because there is no grain, there is nothing to cause interferance with the shine. It bead blasts great (the top two knives in the photo are bead blasted). It satin finishes with a look very similar to Talonite. Stone washing has not been tried (as far as I know) but it should work fine.

LM1 is a horrible heat contuctor. It absorbs heat great, but it pretty much refuses to let it go. You can leave it out in the sun until it gets hot to the touch, then put it in the shade and it will remain hot for a long time. It really needs to be physically cooled.

When I was talking with R+D about the use of LM1 as a penitrator, that was one of my questions as well. He basically stated that the heat build up is so fast that no noticable change is noticed until after the target is destroyed.

LM1 has the same shear properties are DU. I was told the actual scientific name for the properties but can not remember it at this time. Basically both DU and LM1 have surface shearing as they penetrate armor. The surface material shears at 45 deg angles so it is always producing a new sharp point as it breaks away.

The above got me worried that the same might explain how LM1 stays so sharp as a knife. I was thinking that the blade might wear out at a undesirable rate in normal cutting. I was assured that while that is happening, it is at such a slow rate that is would not be noticed and it would not cause the blade to wear faster than a conventional material. It is said that all materials shear, but most shear at 90deg angles causing dulling. While LM1 shears at the same rate as a normal material it shears at 45Deg angles causing it to remain sharp.

Since LM1 is a glass it takes the same edges as volcanic glass( obsidian ). That is why it has seen such success in the operating room. It is currently the material of choice for eye surgery. The micro fine edge can not be matched by any other man made material.

Other interesting notes. LM1 has been FDA approved for use inside the human body. They are currently working on using it as a material for replacement joints. The super wear resistance would enable the new joints to last much longer than what materials are currently in use.
 
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