Lock Strength - Spyderco Paramilitary 2 vs Cold Steel Hold Out II

[bld522]

Spyderco lost by those standards no more no less.

Whether or not Spyderco won or lost may be inconsequential depending upon how important those standards are. For example, if you're a slipjoint fancier, those standards are meaningless. As for me, I'm a light user of folding knives. I generally use my folders for cutting stuff as opposed to, say, opening stuck ammo boxes. I wouldn't begin to stress any of my folders to the point where the PM 2 failed let alone to the point where the Hold Out failed. So for me, the results of this test don't matter at all. YMMV.

 

[Fanglekai]

. . . or less. But who cares? If you can't operate a slipjoint without running the risk of injuring yourself, you shouldn't own any slipjoints.

I think you might have misinterpreted my point. In the video Demko said they "rejected knives that failed the test". Most of my slipjoints would fail the test at probably 10 lbs or less, and thus be rejected by Cold Steel as being unsafe/worthless/what have you. Well, that's obviously not true. By using the same logic, we can say that just because the Spyderco knife failed their test and "would be rejected" it doesn't mean the knife is worthless as a result. My point was that this kind of testing is marketing fluff. Just because my slipjoints wouldn't be able to hold over 9000 lbs doesn't mean they're worthless/unsafe/should be rejected. On the contrary, I feel safer with a slipjoint precisely because I know the limitations of the tool.

 

[bld522]

I think you might have misinterpreted my point.

Yes, apparently I did. Sorry about that.

 

[AntonioAhumada]

So bld522' do You own a paramilitary? I own several Spyderco knives which I enjoy and use. I do not abuse but use them, none is either a " Military" or a " paramilitary" because I don't use those for tactical purposes. I just can't see how you are defending intended tactical / utility knives with subpar performance just because you like slip-joints.

 

[bld522]

So bld522' do You own a paramilitary? I own several Spyderco knives which I enjoy and use. I do not abuse but use them, none is either a " Military" or a " paramilitary" because I don't use those for tactical purposes. I just can't see how you are defending intended tactical / utility knives with subpar performance just because you like slip-joints.

I don't own a Paramilitary. Like you, however, I own several Spyderco knives which I enjoy and use. And I don't abuse them either. As a result, I've never experienced a lock failure with any of them and I don't expect to.

As far as "subpar" performance is concerned, I'd be interested to know how many people use their "Military" and "Paramilitary" folders for tactical purposes and of those that do, how many have experienced lock failures. I haven't heard of a single instance yet. Makes me wonder if those people use their folders the way they were intended to be used and other tools to do the kinds of jobs that might cause the locks in their folders to fail or the blades to break. After all, a broken tool in a civilian setting is annoying. But a broken tool in a theater of operation could be life-threatening.

 

[Yo Mama]

These videos are a joke. Still won't show the cs breaking? Demko i really I like you but these demonstrations are silly

 

[Todd21969]

So bld522' do You own a paramilitary? I own several Spyderco knives which I enjoy and use. I do not abuse but use them, none is either a " Military" or a " paramilitary" because I don't use those for tactical purposes. I just can't see how you are defending intended tactical / utility knives with subpar performance just because you like slip-joints.

You directed your comment to bld522, but I'll throw in my two cents about the "sub par" Military and PM2 (I own both).

That is a standard S30v Military being used to take down an oak sapling. Also batoned into the stump for good measure, I have never been accused of being bright

That knife survived and has served very well as my work knife for the past 7 months. Being full of and covered with stone dust. Cuts everything from simple packing tape to converyor belt. Has been used for prying rubber collars off piston shafts, pulling staples, and picking stones out of my boot treads.

A PM2 is my usual weekend knife. So it hasn't seen nearly the use of my Military.

Is the triad lock stronger ? Sure seems so in those CS tests.They are certainly strong enough for me though.

For you to say they are sub par without owning one is a little bit odd to me.

 

[flipe8]

I'm left wondering if these videos are doing both harm and good for CS? I mean, after reading this and a few other threads recently, it appears there's a number of members left with a sour taste . To the regular consumer who isn't a "knife nut", some of these videos could draw some sales for sure, but the enthusiasts are the target market for the high-end knives. I doubt very much most average consumers will be dropping the money we tend to drop on knives. I imagine forum members are not where the majority of sales are generated, but if CS is looking to increase its share of the high-end(and higher priced) knife market, it would seem the negative attention might not be the best way to attract potential customers.

 

[Yo Mama]

I'm left wondering if these videos are doing both harm and good for CS? I mean, after reading this and a few other threads recently, it appears there's a number of members left with a sour taste . To the regular consumer who isn't a "knife nut", some of these videos could draw some sales for sure, but the enthusiasts are the target market for the high-end knives. I doubt very much most average consumers will be dropping the money we tend to drop on knives. I imagine forum members are not where the majority of sales are generated, but if CS is looking to increase its share of the high-end(and higher priced) knife market, it would seem the negative attention might not be the best way to attract potential customers.

Problem is most people who buy a knife are not nutz like us! so they pull up a YouTube video make a purchase.

 

[Mr.Tuesday]

I'm left wondering if these videos are doing both harm and good for CS? I mean, after reading this and a few other threads recently, it appears there's a number of members left with a sour taste . To the regular consumer who isn't a "knife nut", some of these videos could draw some sales for sure, but the enthusiasts are the target market for the high-end knives. I doubt very much most average consumers will be dropping the money we tend to drop on knives. I imagine forum members are not where the majority of sales are generated, but if CS is looking to increase its share of the high-end(and higher priced) knife market, it would seem the negative attention might not be the best way to attract potential customers.

I really doubt this is going to harm them. They've always had unique marketing, and this is no different. I own a PM2, ZT300, and manix but I still really like the tests. I know they're not realistic but I think it's cool to see how much punishment these folders can take. This isn't the first time cold steel has had a controversy and it won't be the last.

 

[c.joe]

While I admire Cold Steel's in your face marketing, I'm a little curious/disturbed at why they don't compare edge retention too. If that's how they are going to compose their tests, I can purchase cheap one inch steel bar stock with a high modulus of elasticity, simultaneously load it with another Cold Steel knife as shown in their test videos, and conclude that the cheaper one inch bar stock is indeed the better "knife" when the Cold Steel knife fails first.

If any of the knives they test fail beyond 100-200 pounds, I'd say it passes any normal use test with a decent factor of safety. But it seems that Cold Steel deems the need to call it catastrophic failure even when it's simple yield failure.



Fun tests regardless as I don't see much lock strength tests from other companies. Nice to see how other knives hold up.

 

[Freman Bloodglaive]

Possibly because edge retention videos are among the most boring things to make and watch imaginable. They're just some guy standing there for hours cutting through rope or cardboard until the edge goes dull, and when it gets into the higher end steels it is literally hours. The videos I've had the misfortune to see on YouTube, eventually the guy cuts out most of the cutting anyway and skips to the end, probably to save our sanity.

 

[momouppa]

Whether or not Spyderco won or lost may be inconsequential depending upon how important those standards are. For example, if you're a slipjoint fancier, those standards are meaningless. As for me, I'm a light user of folding knives. I generally use my folders for cutting stuff as opposed to, say, opening stuck ammo boxes. I wouldn't begin to stress any of my folders to the point where the PM 2 failed let alone to the point where the Hold Out failed. So for me, the results of this test don't matter at all. YMMV.

Sure it may not better for you or me but it doesn't change the truth.

 

[Ankerson]

Possibly because edge retention videos are among the most boring things to make and watch imaginable. They're just some guy standing there for hours cutting through rope or cardboard until the edge goes dull, and when it gets into the higher end steels it is literally hours. The videos I've had the misfortune to see on YouTube, eventually the guy cuts out most of the cutting anyway and skips to the end, probably to save our sanity.

Depends on the actual steel etc.

With some that I have actually seen and tested one could cut cardboard literally for 8 hours a day for almost a week before it would actually be dull.

That's why there has to be a stopping point.

I set my stopping point before I even start with some of the steels because cutting until actually dull would be completely insane.

 

[jazzz]

It's nice to see how strong folders can be. Obviously, if you cut envelopes and such you won't see the point. There are those of us who like the testing regardless, if not just for fun. If you don't like them, just don't watch them - simple. I like knowing my folders are strong - what if I was stranded and needed them for serious use of any sort? If you want a paper thin slicer, buy one. Just my opinion - not trying to offend anyone.

 

[crom]

Cutting is basically down to edge geometry, and how long it holds the edge is down to metal composition and heat treatment.

I have an Eland that is 5¼" of razor sharp cutty goodness. Sure the 4116 doesn't hold the edge for a long time, but it resharpens easily too. Heck, I have a couple of Spanish navaja that take a sharp edge easily on 420 steel. I've never used them for more than cutting paper so I don't know how long they'd hold that edge of course.

Put the old AUS8 4" clip point Voyager up against much more expensive knives with their chunky sharpened pry bar blades and it'd cut rings around them, at least until the edge faded. On the other hand an Opinel #8 would outcut the Voyager and even when the edge faded the sheer thinness of the knife would keep it cutting quite well.

Cold Steel make good cutting knives, just like Spyderco do. They do these lock test videos because, from the start, their shtick has been making strong knives. Do they need to be that strong? The ring lock on my Eland is more than strong enough for my usage, and if we want to talk about using a knife as a weapon, it's likely that more people have been injured or killed with cheap Okapi ring lock knives than with Espada XLs. They don't need to be that strong, but Cold Steel put their money where their mouth is and make them that strong, so they're going to advertise that fact.

The part about the old vs new Voyagers is simply not true. I have owned/still own both versions and the new ones are the same stock thickness and the grinds haven't really changed. In fact, the Voyager grind changed for the better. CS DOES promote their knives cutting ability. If you are familiar with the meat filled boot stabs, you should be familiar with the leather cutting, the rope cutting, the seatbelt cutting tests in the same video series. I do not own a PM2 but I have a Hold Out 2 in AUS8a sitting in front of me as I type this. It has become one of my favorites because it cuts and slices so cleanly while also being a brute of a knife.

 

[crom]

I wonder what is done to the knives before they are tested.

Oh, you know, AD welds in extra steel buttresses around the pivot and fills gaps with JB weld. What a ridiculous/slanderous comment to post on here, Andrew is a member and tries to be as fair as possible.

 

[crom]

I'd like to add that I own knives by both companies going back over 20 years now. I have enjoyed both brands and didnt necessarily favor one over the other. However, I have seen it repeated here over and over that the Compression lock is the gold standard for ease of use and strength, it is certainly a strong lock but it is not the strongest lock as it has been called often here and on the internets.

 

[Ankerson]

The part about the old vs new Voyagers is simply not true. I have owned/still own both versions and the new ones are the same stock thickness and the grinds haven't really changed. In fact, the Voyager grind changed for the better. CS DOES promote their knives cutting ability. If you are familiar with the meat filled boot stabs, you should be familiar with the leather cutting, the rope cutting, the seatbelt cutting tests in the same video series. I do not own a PM2 but I have a Hold Out 2 in AUS8a sitting in front of me as I type this. It has become one of my favorites because it cuts and slices so cleanly while also being a brute of a knife.

The new Voyagers have more spine thickness than the vintage model Voyagers.

Same with the Vintage Recon 1 compared to the new ones.

But even the new ones are somewhat thinner than a lot of the other knives out there.

 

[jbmonkey]

Oh, you know, AD welds in extra steel buttresses around the pivot and fills gaps with JB weld. What a ridiculous/slanderous comment to post on here, Andrew is a member and tries to be as fair as possible.

maybe i misunderstood that users comment, but i took it as someone who doesn't watch the videos with the sound on when Mr. Demko explains he drills a hole for the weigh to hang on and removes the edge so it's safer to handle in the trials, etc. he would have known this if he watched with the volume on......i could be way wrong though and maybe he meant it the way you took it?