Lock Test Videos: Room For Improvement

[Insipid Moniker]

I know this may not have been directed at me but I don't want people to misunderstand me. I really like what they are doing, it is cool, entertaining and I wish more makers would do similar types of testing but maybe for other things like checking blades heat treats, edge retention tests etc. It is cool to see all of these things in action and see testing we probably wouldn't do ourselves.

The whole point of this thread was to point out that with a few minor adjustments that wouldn't cost them a thing (value of the knives broken maybe, but they would be pretty shot anyway) they could go from just entertaining to building up some real, valuable data.

It is risky because they start to lose some of the control and they need to be okay with the possibility of a competitors knife testing better than some of their own but really, when has transparency ever hurt a company? People respect that immensely and I really don't think it would make someone change their mind about buying a cold steel. Everyone knows their knives are tough as nails and I think that the majority of the time their knives will still win. The greatest benefit to cold steel would be the positive PR, I mean look at all of the split opinions in this thread alone, a lot of people feel pretty strongly about these tests. If they were willing to pull back the curtain and break their own knives for the sake of informing the consumer the return on investment in goodwill would be amazing. Let's face it, cold steel isn't afraid to upset people and I don't think they should soften their opinions to appease the public, but in this case it is only their own pride getting in the way of a great opportunity.

Agreed.

 

[Fanglekai]

You are absoutely right about that. Especially the last part.

To be fair I think Cold Steel needs to test to destruction every knife every time and publish the results. Right now they are doing something slightly better than unsubstantiated marketing, but without knowing the strength of their knives I'm going to assume they would break shortly after the competition breaks. If their knives hold twice as much weight why not show it?

 

[Fire_Brand]

To be fair I think Cold Steel needs to test to destruction every knife every time and publish the results. Right now they are doing something slightly better than unsubstantiated marketing, but without knowing the strength of their knives I'm going to assume they would break shortly after the competition breaks. If their knives hold twice as much weight why not show it?

Exactly my perspective, and even if it does break immediately after the competition does they still win. Either way, unless it is shown there is no way to know.

 

[Jens Schuetz]

If every knife is tested the same way until destruction there would be no point of X versus Y and X vs Z shows.
You already broke X in another test last week and thus know the numbers till failure. Now you test Y to failure and just compare the numbers of Y to the previous experiments with X.
Wanna test Z? Just test Z alone since you already have numbers of X and Y from before.
Also if all cold steels are tested to failure we would be able to compare CS knives to each other and not just the competition. (maybe thats not wanted)

Still, will be slighty less suspense, and only less entertaining (if you have a favorite in the fight) and if the comparison is only via numbers and not in the same video without any editing/cuts some people might think that theres some cheating gong on.
I see both sides but like the more scientific approach since its also more effective.
Instead of messing a CS knife up for every CS vs Something show, you just test that model once and compare the numbers to the next test objects.

 

[Insipid Moniker]

If every knife is tested the same way until destruction there would be no point of X versus Y and X vs Z shows.
You already broke X in another test last week and thus know the numbers till failure. Now you test Y to failure and just compare the numbers of Y to the previous experiments with X.
Wanna test Z? Just test Z alone since you already have numbers of X and Y from before.
Also if all cold steels are tested to failure we would be able to compare CS knives to each other and not just the competition. (maybe thats not wanted)

Still, will be slighty less suspense, and only less entertaining (if you have a favorite in the fight) and if the comparison is only via numbers and not in the same video without any editing/cuts some people might think that theres some cheating gong on.
I see both sides but like the more scientific approach since its also more effective.
Instead of messing a CS knife up for every CS vs Something show, you just test that model once and compare the numbers to the next test objects.

Actually, minor flaws in material and construction technique would invariably give you slightly different results even from the same model of knife. Now, to be fair, if you're adding 45lbs every time it probably would be too small to see, but with a more nuanced system you would definitely see some difference and that would help give us one of the most important numbers from a statistics standpoint, standard deviation.

"The Recon 1 Triad lock can hold 500lbs," is never going to be a really accurate statement, but "the Recon 1 Triad lock can hold 485-515lbs," could be much more accurate if we can solidify a standard deviation of 15lbs. It's a great number to not only let us know how strong a lock is, but how consistent the build quality is.

Edit: All numbers are pulled from thin air, not any testing I've seen.

 

[Insipid Moniker]

One other random thought, distance from the pivot wouldn't matter or need to be consistent if they announced the results in inch-pounds (which would be a more accurate representation of the pressure involved). That would remove that variable from the equation entirely.

 

[Fire_Brand]

One other random thought, distance from the pivot wouldn't matter or need to be consistent if they announced the results in inch-pounds (which would be a more accurate representation of the pressure involved). That would remove that variable from the equation entirely.

Exactly my thoughts and my updated suggestion earlier, we really only need to know the value of the torque. Also if you really wanted to get down to more minute weight levels they make machines specifically to do this. You could use something like a modified tensile strength testing machine where it measures and graphs the amount of force being applied, and the distance the material has stretched. The interesting part about this being that material starts doing strange things right before failure. I've used these to test a lot of different types of metal as well as plastics (which do even stranger things like actually get stronger/take more force to stretch as they approach failure).

But obviously something like that would cost a ton so it wouldn't really be reasonable to ask them to go that far.

 

[Insipid Moniker]

Exactly my thoughts and my updated suggestion earlier, we really only need to know the value of the torque. Also if you really wanted to get down to more minute weight levels they make machines specifically to do this. You could use something like a modified tensile strength testing machine where it measures and graphs the amount of force being applied, and the distance the material has stretched. The interesting part about this being that material starts doing strange things right before failure. I've used these to test a lot of different types of metal as well as plastics (which do even stranger things like actually get stronger/take more force to stretch as they approach failure).

But obviously something like that would cost a ton so it wouldn't really be reasonable to ask them to go that far.

Yeah, I agree. I think it's worth pointing out easy, realistic ways they could improve the testing (give results in terms of torque) but it's also fun and interesting to get into what really accurate tests would involve and look like.

 

[AmosPaul]

I like the videos as they are. I also like the trickle-down affect: other knife makers are posting similar knife test videos. Hogue Knives (Mr. Elishewitz) has videos showing the strength of their button lock for example.

 

[Blade Runner 7]

If you need to apply 800 lbs of force to cut something, maybe you knife could use a sharpening.

Cold steel really needs to focus on proving they make a better knife. Not just a stronger lock. If I want to buy a lock I'll check out Master Lock videos. All this attention to the difference between a 600 lb lock or an 800 lb lock is getting tiring. If you need anything stronger than a liner lock, you're using your knife wrong. Maybe you should just carry a fixed blade. Come on Cold Steel. Prove the knife end of your knives is better than other manufacturers.

Want to improve these tests? Perform them in person at Blade show. Challenge others to submit their knives to the torture test. That's what Busse used to do years ago at shows but everyone else backed down. Testing on your grounds on your terms by your people and filmed/edited by you is lame.

 

[asdf12345]

If you need to apply 800 lbs of force to cut something, maybe you knife could use a sharpening.

Cold steel really needs to focus on proving they make a better knife. Not just a stronger lock. If I want to buy a lock I'll check out Master Lock videos. All this attention to the difference between a 600 lb lock or an 800 lb lock is getting tiring. If you need anything stronger than a liner lock, you're using your knife wrong. Maybe you should just carry a fixed blade. Come on Cold Steel. Prove the knife end of your knives is better than other manufacturers.

Want to improve these tests? Perform them in person at Blade show. Challenge others to submit their knives to the torture test. That's what Busse used to do years ago at shows but everyone else backed down. Testing on your grounds on your terms by your people and filmed/edited by you is lame.

I can think of many liner-locked knives that have worse cutting geometry than comparable Cold Steel knives... why have the weaker lock and the worse geometry?

I agree with your comment "If you need anything stronger than a liner lock, you're using your knife wrong." However, for people who choose to use a folding knife for hard-use tasks and possibly emergency situations (NB, I am not one of these people) extra redundant lock strength can only help, not harm. I don't use my knives for any more than light to moderate EDC tasks, so I don't carry a Cold Steel. But if I was a person carrying a folder to see hard use, abuse and possibly emergency situations then I would be carrying a Triad locked folder.

In addition, considering a fixed blade and a folder with the same blade length, carrying the fixed blade will always be more bulky, conspicuous, and uncomfortable. Perhaps you want a folder that's capable of performing fixed-blade tasks but don't want to deal with the difficulties of carrying a fixed blade. Alternatively, perhaps your local laws prohibit fixed-blade carry.

What I would actually like to see more of is testing of blades. A blade that breaks during use can cause injury just as severe as a failing lock and renders the knife just as inoperable as a lock failure does. If I anticipate performing extreme tasks with my knife, I would want to know that my knife's blade is just as much up to those extreme tasks as my knife's lock, and I would want to know how my knife's blade compares with other manufacturers' blades. This is especially relevant given reports of brittleness on the newer XHP blades.

 

[Insipid Moniker]

If you need to apply 800 lbs of force to cut something, maybe you knife could use a sharpening.

Cold steel really needs to focus on proving they make a better knife. Not just a stronger lock. If I want to buy a lock I'll check out Master Lock videos. All this attention to the difference between a 600 lb lock or an 800 lb lock is getting tiring. If you need anything stronger than a liner lock, you're using your knife wrong. Maybe you should just carry a fixed blade. Come on Cold Steel. Prove the knife end of your knives is better than other manufacturers.

Want to improve these tests? Perform them in person at Blade show. Challenge others to submit their knives to the torture test. That's what Busse used to do years ago at shows but everyone else backed down. Testing on your grounds on your terms by your people and filmed/edited by you is lame.

So if you had two identical knives except that one had a stronger lock and the other a weaker lock, you would knowingly choose the weaker lock?

Lock strength is a far cry from being the most important thing in a folding knife, but to pretend it has no value is just as silly as making it the single determining factor in your purchase.

Also, you're making the common mistake of looking at weight, not torque. Convert some of those weights into inch-pounds or foot-pounds. A lock holding a static load of 270lbs sounds really impressive until you realize that the torque is still well within the realm of what you can apply to the blade without any lever or batons.

 

[B.F.U]

Tests shouldn't be about "suspense." They should be about information.

True, but then it shouldn't be considered testing.

If you want the knives tested to failure and absolutely objectively, then find a non-knife-enthusiast with no bias to do a totally objective test. Even if any knife enthusiast did the tests they would have to demonstrate extreme rigor in maintaining objectivity in their testing methods, and even still would receive criticism.

These are videos from a knife manufacturer. Why on earth would they break their own knives, even after they had beaten competing knives in, quite impressively objective, torture tests.

Do the tests yourself and put the videos on YouTube, I'm sure lots of people would watch. No other company is coming anywhere near this level of straightforward, objective testing.

And just so I don't get called a fanboy, I don't own a Cold Steel right now. I have, and several are on my to buy list, but my only modern knives right now are 3 Spydercos and a Zero Tolerance.

 

[Blade Runner 7]

I can think of many liner-locked knives that have worse cutting geometry than comparable Cold Steel knives... why have the weaker lock and the worse geometry?

I don't know. What knife do I own that you think has bad geometry and a weak lock?
In my experience, as a knife enthusiast, edge geometry is easy to alter. If you are interested enough in knives to spend time on a knife message board, you should probably be able to reprofile an edge. It's not much different than sharpening a knife. We should ALL be able to sharpen our knives. It's a common tactic to argue edge geometry but I don't think it's a good one.

I agree with your comment "If you need anything stronger than a liner lock, you're using your knife wrong." However, for people who choose to use a folding knife for hard-use tasks and possibly emergency situations (NB, I am not one of these people) extra redundant lock strength can only help, not harm. I don't use my knives for any more than light to moderate EDC tasks, so I don't carry a Cold Steel. But if I was a person carrying a folder to see hard use, abuse and possibly emergency situations then I would be carrying a Triad locked folder.

What do you consider hard use? What situation could someone be applying 600 lbs of force to the lock of a folder? What situation would 600 lb. resistance not be enough? People throw the term "hard use" out there but never describe it. Just to clarify, I'm not criticizing Cold Steel for having a strong lock. I'm criticizing them for focusing SO MUCH on it. Cold Steel has been trying to play catch up with other makers when it comes to quality blades. Now that they have upped the game a very little bit, they are trying to call everyone else out on a lock? Come on CS. Really......

In addition, considering a fixed blade and a folder with the same blade length, carrying the fixed blade will always be more bulky, conspicuous, and uncomfortable. Perhaps you want a folder that's capable of performing fixed-blade tasks but don't want to deal with the difficulties of carrying a fixed blade. Alternatively, perhaps your local laws prohibit fixed-blade carry.

If "hard use" is important to you, you will be fine carrying a fixed blade. Trying to say a fixed blade is hard to carry is silly. If you need a knife for emergency situations where lives are at risk, carry a fixed blade.

What I would actually like to see more of is testing of blades. A blade that breaks during use can cause injury just as severe as a failing lock and renders the knife just as inoperable as a lock failure does. If I anticipate performing extreme tasks with my knife, I would want to know that my knife's blade is just as much up to those extreme tasks as my knife's lock, and I would want to know how my knife's blade compares with other manufacturers' blades. This is especially relevant given reports of brittleness on the newer XHP blades.

Exactly what I said. Unfortunately CS has had a lot of bad publicity with broken blades. But hey as long as the lock didn't fail.

So if you had two identical knives except that one had a stronger lock and the other a weaker lock, you would knowingly choose the weaker lock?

Yeah that's exactly what I said.

Lock strength is a far cry from being the most important thing in a folding knife, but to pretend it has no value is just as silly as making it the single determining factor in your purchase.

Yeah because that's what I said.

Also, you're making the common mistake of looking at weight, not torque. Convert some of those weights into inch-pounds or foot-pounds. A lock holding a static load of 270lbs sounds really impressive until you realize that the torque is still well within the realm of what you can apply to the blade without any lever or batons.

I'm not making any mistakes. I'm responding to CSs testing. OBVIOUSLY torque is 100 times more important. I didn't feel the need to address that because Cold Steel didn't make any claims as to torque. Now for the "hard use" claims, torque is all that matters in my opinion. If CS really wants to show off, do some lateral stress tests. I'll admit I didn't watch the last video all the way through so maybe they addressed it there. Doubt it though.

 

[asdf12345]

Sorry, I hope you didn't take that to mean that I was criticizing your particular knives. I say "you" addressing a hypothetical person choosing between two comparable knives, one with a liner lock and a less suitable grind for cutting, and one with a triad lock and a more suitable grind for cutting. Edge geometry was not what I was referring to. There's much variation in edge geometry in any given model of knife as it is, since production knives tend to have significant variances in how their edge is set from knife to knife.

Cold Steel's lock sells their knives. They focus on it because it's what sets them apart. You don't see Cold Steel doing cutting demos showing improbably high edge retention, and you don't see Rockstead doing weight hanging demos on their folding knives.

The "but you don't define hard use" response is getting old.. it says nothing to support your point and is no better than a character attack. Hard use applications are applications which subject the knife and its components to substantial stress and shock. I do agree with your sentiment that it's not likely that all that lock strength is absolutely necessary even for these hard use applications. But again, it can only help, not hurt. You can argue all day that a fixed blade should be carried if emergency situations are anticipated, and I happen to agree with you on that. But for those who have already made the choice to carry a folder for such a purpose, there's no reason why redundant strength is undesirable.

But as you say, Cold Steel needs to do more comprehensive tests where other things are tested than merely overstrikes, spine whacks and weight hangs.

I don't know. What knife do I own that you think has bad geometry and a weak lock?
In my experience, as a knife enthusiast, edge geometry is easy to alter. If you are interested enough in knives to spend time on a knife message board, you should probably be able to reprofile an edge. It's not much different than sharpening a knife. We should ALL be able to sharpen our knives. It's a common tactic to argue edge geometry but I don't think it's a good one.


What do you consider hard use? What situation could someone be applying 600 lbs of force to the lock of a folder? What situation would 600 lb. resistance not be enough? People throw the term "hard use" out there but never describe it. Just to clarify, I'm not criticizing Cold Steel for having a strong lock. I'm criticizing them for focusing SO MUCH on it. Cold Steel has been trying to play catch up with other makers when it comes to quality blades. Now that they have upped the game a very little bit, they are trying to call everyone else out on a lock? Come on CS. Really......



If "hard use" is important to you, you will be fine carrying a fixed blade. Trying to say a fixed blade is hard to carry is silly. If you need a knife for emergency situations where lives are at risk, carry a fixed blade.


Exactly what I said. Unfortunately CS has had a lot of bad publicity with broken blades. But hey as long as the lock didn't fail.


Yeah that's exactly what I said.


Yeah because that's what I said.



I'm not making any mistakes. I'm responding to CSs testing. OBVIOUSLY torque is 100 times more important. I didn't feel the need to address that because Cold Steel didn't make any claims as to torque. Now for the "hard use" claims, torque is all that matters in my opinion. If CS really wants to show off, do some lateral stress tests. I'll admit I didn't watch the last video all the way through so maybe they addressed it there. Doubt it though.

 

[Freman Bloodglaive]

Cold Steel hang their measured weight, as near as I can tell, 4 inches from the pivot. That means the load is not just a weight, but a torque, moreover it imparts a tensile load on a backlock (compressive on a liner or framelock) and shear forces on its pivot. As far as I can tell the pivot was what broke in their comparison video with the Extreme Ratio.

As for "playing catchup when it comes to quality blades" what knifemaker actually offers comparable quality in the price range Cold Steel sell in? Kershaw? Spyderco sells in a higher price range.

 

[crom]

Blade Runner 7, what is this bad publicity you speak of with broken blades? Can you back that up? Also, you mention CS is playing catch up regarding making quality knives. That is utter BS, they have been making quality knives for about 30 years, not sure if you are getting this from some internet band wagon crapola or first hand experience. What are your personal experiences with CS?

 

[Fire_Brand]

Blade Runner 7, what is this bad publicity you speak of with broken blades? Can you back that up? Also, you mention CS is playing catch up regarding making quality knives. That is utter BS, they have been making quality knives for about 30 years, not sure if you are getting this from some internet band wagon crapola or first hand experience. What are your personal experiences with CS?

Not saying I agree with the rest of his comment, but if you go on youtube there are plenty of videos of cold steels blades breaking in ways a comparable knife wouldn't. The blades scallop out and when they do there is presence of weak spots and defects in the steel structure, there is little to no plastic deformation (they just shatter) and they don't always hold up to the tough use they pitch their knives with. Granted this is considering a lot of people abuse their knives so it is hard to tell, but cold steel certainly pitches their knives this way so what do they expect?

That said I've also seen incredible things such as the videos of Fred Perrin using a ak-47 and american lawman as throwing knives without them breaking which is incredible. But the full blades chipping out and breaking is unfortunately also a common theme. I can't say I've seen much talk about this on forums though for whatever reason.

 

[Fire_Brand]

Cold Steel hang their measured weight, as near as I can tell, 4 inches from the pivot. That means the load is not just a weight, but a torque, moreover it imparts a tensile load on a backlock (compressive on a liner or framelock) and shear forces on its pivot. As far as I can tell the pivot was what broke in their comparison video with the Extreme Ratio.

As for "playing catchup when it comes to quality blades" what knifemaker actually offers comparable quality in the price range Cold Steel sell in? Kershaw? Spyderco sells in a higher price range.

They do use 4" away sometimes but not always, and the force on the lock is always going to be torque (mostly). The point being is that they always report the numbers in how much weight they hang from the knife, not how much torque is being experienced by the lock which would be a more universal measurement and then make different knives comparable. The desire here is that they stop reporting that a knife "held 600 pounds!" and instead say it held so many foot-pounds of torque because it would be more meaningful.

 

[crom]

Not saying I agree with the rest of his comment, but if you go on youtube there are plenty of videos of cold steels blades breaking in ways a comparable knife wouldn't. The blades scallop out and when they do there is presence of weak spots and defects in the steel structure, there is little to no plastic deformation (they just shatter) and they don't always hold up to the tough use they pitch their knives with. Granted this is considering a lot of people abuse their knives so it is hard to tell, but cold steel certainly pitches their knives this way so what do they expect?

That said I've also seen incredible things such as the videos of Fred Perrin using a ak-47 and american lawman as throwing knives without them breaking which is incredible. But the full blades chipping out and breaking is unfortunately also a common theme. I can't say I've seen much talk about this on forums though for whatever reason.

I agree to a point. I can browse YT and find pics of broken knives by just about any manufacturer, doesn't make it a trend or whatever. I've seen the hollow grind blades show the half moon chips, FWIW I don't understand putting that drastic hollow grind on their bread and butter knives like the Recon1.