Natural Outlaw died! I shocked...

Status
Not open for further replies.
knife hunter said:
Another reason is that blade hasnt been available in 12 years from Busse since its making in 2001. THey are probably digging thru old blanks as we speak.:cool:

Now, it might take awhile maybe even some luck:thumbup:
Click to expand...

I always see people talk about raw materials in regards to Busse knives like you would need a specific blank for each model of knife.

From the kind of machining capability it appears they have IMO 3/8" flatbar INFI would be all they need to make any knife.
 
If I had a guess, and it is just a guess, the harder thing to find is not the raw material, or blanks as people allege actually I'd be surprised if Busse really kept a large number of cut blanks around because if INFI really is a high cost steel thats a great deal of capital languishing in inventory thats not moving, its the CNC program used to run the (guessing) wet jet and subsequently the milling machine or CNC grinder used to turn that blank into a blade. *shrug* I mean if the hold up really was finding the blank, or any of the aforementioned, if I were Busse I'd just contact the customer and ask them if they'd be willing to accept the current gen natural outlaw. Maybe thats just my craziness talking though? *shrug* I really don't want to come down or be perceived as commenting on Busse's or the customer's behalf here, I'm just as honestly curious as the next guy. :D
 
falar said:
I always see people talk about raw materials in regards to Busse knives like you would need a specific blank for each model of knife.

From the kind of machining capability it appears they have IMO 3/8" flatbar INFI would be all they need to make any knife.
Click to expand...

It's not as simple as that. You also have to take the machine you were using to pump out your current product, then take the time to reprogram it to make the blank you need.

I will put it this way. Contact a company that makes any whizbang product out of machined steel. Give them the specs for a design, and then ask them the price to stop what they are doing, and make you just a single example from start to finish. Even if it is relatively simple, like water jetting out a single knife blank, you will have one very expensive piece.

I would be willing to bet that that particular knife was not made on any machine now in use at Busse.

It has not been produced in over a decade. What that means is you have to have some one reprogram a current machine to water jet or laser cut your part. Then reprogram a CNC machine to do the same. The tooling may not be the same from the knives they were making, and your blank, so that has to be switched out too.


My understanding, though it may be wrong, is if they don't have an extra blank for your model knife, you get a shop credit for the original cost of the blade, and buy a new model.
 
I at all don't wait for replacement by just the same knife (the same model). Taking into account circumstances that I am not the first owner and to a knife many years - I would agree to a new knife of the smaller size or the same size with my surcharge.
But passed already a lot of time. I and refusal didn't receive also a specific proposal. Only the promise to resolve an issue.
 
Valerii said:
I at all don't wait for replacement by just the same knife (the same model). Taking into account circumstances that I am not the first owner and to a knife many years - I would agree to a new knife of the smaller size or the same size with my surcharge.
But passed already a lot of time. I and refusal didn't receive also a specific proposal. Only the promise to resolve an issue.
Click to expand...

The fact that they are honoring a warranty on a modified knife is impressive and I am sure you will hear from them. I could have sworn that if a knife had been highly modified, they did not honor warranty, but it looks like it may be unconditional now. I could not find warranty info on the busse site.
 
Bigfattyt said:
It's not as simple as that. You also have to take the machine you were using to pump out your current product, then take the time to reprogram it to make the blank you need.

I will put it this way. Contact a company that makes any whizbang product out of machined steel. Give them the specs for a design, and then ask them the price to stop what they are doing, and make you just a single example from start to finish. Even if it is relatively simple, like water jetting out a single knife blank, you will have one very expensive piece.

I would be willing to bet that that particular knife was not made on any machine now in use at Busse.

It has not been produced in over a decade. What that means is you have to have some one reprogram a current machine to water jet or laser cut your part. Then reprogram a CNC machine to do the same. The tooling may not be the same from the knives they were making, and your blank, so that has to be switched out too.


My understanding, though it may be wrong, is if they don't have an extra blank for your model knife, you get a shop credit for the original cost of the blade, and buy a new model.
Click to expand...

I know how it works since I operate and manage a machine shop/fab shop.

Every CNC machine I have stores GBs worth of programs and we also have them backed up on computers. If I had to run something that I hadn't made in 6 years I could simply locate the program and run it again. If someone needs a rush job and I am in the middle of a production run then yes, I would charge them extra to interrupt what I already have going on and if necessary, change the setup.

Now if this particular knife was made over a decade or so ago on manual machines then yes, different story. It just seems that I see a lot of references to "see if they can dig up a blank for you" whenever someone asks if they can still buy knife xxxx.

This is why I think they can offer you whatever you want via the custom shop.

I could be 100% wrong about the way they do things since I have no idea what they do in their shop. All I am doing is speculating based on my experience in manufacturing.
 
Last edited:
Cobalt said:
The fact that they are honoring a warranty on a modified knife is impressive and I am sure you will hear from them. I could have sworn that if a knife had been highly modified, they did not honor warranty, but it looks like it may be unconditional now. I could not find warranty info on the busse site.
Click to expand...

Here ya go Cobalt:
"With a steel like INFI it's easy to understand why we offer the toughest guarantee in the business. We guarantee against any and all unintentional MAJOR damage forever."
http://www.bussecombat.com/infi/index.shtml
Bottom of the page, last sentence.
 
You consider, what small heating of metal (it very thick, probably 7 mm), can increase hardness?
At a Russian-speaking forum the majority considers, what even strong heating would lead not to hardness increase, and to "temper" - hardness fall.
 
jeepin said:
They should really add except for knives that have been modified or refinished outside the shop.
Click to expand...

probably easier just to offer the full warranty instead of placing conditions on it
 
Thats the thing that sets Busse apart though. Whereas other companies make a warranty as a marketing tool, and then are trying to constantly reduce their liability and basically "get out" of taking care of their product, Busse is trying to make sure that everyone has a working blade and is treated right. I'm not going to start naming brands here, but some brands will void your warranty if they think you've taken it apart, even if that had nothing at all to do with the knife's failure. Its just not the way Busse wants to do business. Thats why we particularly like them. Look at Cliff Stamp. He has broken at least one Busse, and he was taken care of. The performance combined with customer service had him so smitten (he'd hate that I described him that way) that for years and years people thought that either he was actually Jerry Busse, or that he was being paid off. Truth is he just thought highly of the product. Hell I've even broken a Busse, while abusing it granted, and the man himself despite my protest insisted I get a replacement blade. Thats a really special thing right there, it really gives you confidence in the brand and the product. Busse is a really special company for this. Can you name another company, I won't even limit it to knives, who treat their customers this well? I know they've made a life customer out of me.
 
Valerii said:
You consider, what small heating of metal (it very thick, probably 7 mm), can increase hardness?
At a Russian-speaking forum the majority considers, what even strong heating would lead not to hardness increase, and to "temper" - hardness fall.
Click to expand...
I think that that is the concensus. If knife was 65 Rc at the break, then unless it was re-heated above 900 F (not achievable on such a large piece by machine-buffing, the buffer would catch fire!), it achieved that hardness during manufacture and austemper was not sustained. Although I am also skeptical of the brittleness of such a thick slab of INFI even at 65 Rc - the impact force required would be quite high...
 
Valerii said:
You consider, what small heating of metal (it very thick, probably 7 mm), can increase hardness?
At a Russian-speaking forum the majority considers, what even strong heating would lead not to hardness increase, and to "temper" - hardness fall.
Click to expand...

did you read my post above where another sword manufacturer basically states not to EVER!!! machine polish a blade unless you are a professional. I also stated above that it is quite obvious and evident that a circular disk polisher was used from the grind on the blade. Yes, polishing metal like that can easily overheat a blade and if you go above the temper temperature you can cause embrittlement. So it could be a manufacturer defect, but it could also be from the machine polishing that was obviously done on that knife. If I remove a coating on a knife, I always do it by hand. Steel is a great heat sink. It soaks up heat very well. With thicker steels you just don't feel it at the contact points as fast, but it is still there. This is the problem when people that are ignorant mess with heat treated steel, you have no idea what damage you can cause. Again, I don't know what the cause of this break was, but I am sure that the high friction polishing done on the blade didn't help anything.
 
Cobalt, to take the Heat Treatment from the usual 58-59 Rc to 65 Rc is'nt going to happen from buffing the blade. Honestly ...

As mentioned the buffer would be in flames ... however, this does beg the question how did it get to 65 Rc ? But given that the grips and tube fasteners are original I think the prospect of someone trying to re-heat treat the knife to that level of hardness deliberately is also mute. You would definately need to remove the grips.

It seems more likely that there was a gremlin in the system when it was made ... but hey ... that's what warranties are for ... and no-one is perfect ...

In any event Jerry has promised to take care of him ... and no doubt Trevor may have checked up on things before posting ... but the guy has a reasonable point when he comes back after 6 months and not hearing anything ...

Personally, as someone who modifies his Busse's by sharpening them and altering the thickness behind the edge ... and then going out and chopping countless trees and doing a lot of comparison posts on the many different models ... I feel concerned that this type of thread jeopardises the ability for owners to make their Busse's the shape and sharpness they want them to be and still have the ability to rely upon the warranty.

To our friend in Russia, Valerii, I would say that on my judgement call he is a stand up guy and based on that I am happy to stand in his shoes as I know Busse will honour the warranty in due course and if he wants he can have my nearest equivalent knife to what he had which is a stripped and polished NMSFNO. Just send me a PM to give me the address details and some funds to cover postage and he can have the knife posted below ... I will even throw in a good kydex sheath which it is lying on top of ...

P1010027.jpg


There is no way that that knife is not as durable and tough as the day it left the factory ... I know because I have used it ... and it is razor sharp and fully convexed and the geometry on it is maximised to the best angles I have encountered through lots of testing to chop wood ...

I have every faith in Jerry and also every faith in Busse's to be stripped and polished and still be the toughest knives on the planet ...

Here is my stripped and polished and self bead blasted NMFBM going through fencing like a hot knife through butter ...

100_0536.jpg


Not even a dink in the edge :thumbup:

It took down the whole enclosure ( below ) and was still seriously sharp ...

100_0535.jpg
 
Peter, you don' know that, honestly. In many steels if the tempering temp is too high, embrittlement occurs. Embrittlement is hardening and not in a good way. There is a reason why so many knife makers recommend against using power tools. I have burned carbide cutting bits during grinding to sharpen them. It can easily happen. Not saying it did here, but saying that it is one possible issue. Of course a lemon does occur from time to time when production is high enough to supply current demands
 
I've also burned metal to the point of embrittlement... but only on very small cross-sections with minimal material present where the heat can reach high enough to do so prior to being conducted away into the large mass of metal behind that section which acts as the quench - as mentioned before, steel is an excellent heat-sink. There is a notable color change in the steel where the edge has been burned.

This NO broke at the choil, a known failure point in lesser knives. There are no evident failures in the edge where embrittlement due to over-heating would most likely occur. Even Cliff Stamps heavily modified (and abused) Basic 7 remained intact at the choil, intact also at the spine-notch he cut, failing in the blade itself - http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...actually-broken-a-Busse?p=7592409#post7592409

I cannot wrap my brain around this failure NOT being a manufacturing defect or induced by bracing the knife on either side of the choil and flexing until failure, and the owner assures us that the latter did not occur. If we take him at his word (and why shouldn't we?), then the remaining explanation, as statistically unlikely as it is, must be the truth. Or are there other physical possibilities? "Act of God" springs to mind ;)
 
Well he parted the Red Sea and turned water into wine. Breaking INFI wouldnt be hard;):D
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top