New to sharpening and the forum

[brukuns]

Hello guys,

I've been lurking on this forum for a few days now and decided to join (too much good information going on and a very active community, I couldn't miss this).

Let me start with a very quick question, but first a little intro.

Recently moved to an apt that has a grill on the balcony, so I'm BBQing almost every weekend (Brazilian BBQ btw, I live in São Paulo). Obviously that led me to buying a decent knife.

Speaking with a few (apparently lazy) friends I decided to just purchase one of those basic sharpening accessories, similar to this one below:

It did ok with some of my basic knives, but it didn't seem to work too well on the one knife I had purchased (maybe the bevel was a bit thick, not sure).

So I started doing some research and quickly realized how godawful those sharpeners are. So I started to watch several youtube videos to gain as much knowledge as possible before deciding on some new purchases (burrfect and a few others).

I'm a bit detail oriented so I possibly bought more than I actually needed to start:

1. #240/320 coarse stone (from a decent brazilian brand called Carborundum). still on the way.

2. King Deluxe Stone #1000 (possibly the only stone I actually needed to purchase at this point) - I already have it with me.

3. King S-3 #6000 (I found some insane deals, which is why I didn't get the combo. Also, things are more expensive in Brazil)

4. Grooved steel rod (That one was a gift. It's not smooth, but I'll go very light so I just align the edge without losing material)

Here comes the question.

* The decent knife I purchased is already rather sharp (I didn't test cutting through paper yet, just meat). So I was wondering if I should skip developing a burr (either on the coarse or the 1000 stones) and go straight to refining it a little bit. Or if maybe that's a big no no.

From what I've gathered so far I would guess that I can only be sure the knife will be really sharp if I start from scratch and develop a burr in it and go through the entire process.

My concern is that I might ruin what seems to be a fine edge already given I have no experience whatsoever. I'm guessing you will all say I have to start from scratch, but I wanted to ask anyway just to be sure.

* Just another thing... I will only have the #1000 until next week but I wanted to give it a try even before getting the coarse stones. Am I going to be fine doing the entire process from beginning to end (on an older knife) just on the #1000? Am I going to spend 5 hours until I can develop a burr? Or is a #1000 not that awful for that?

This is the knife I purchased in case it helps at all (a few pics hopefully to try and give you an idea of the edge and thickness.... If I was home I could take some specific pictures for this but I don't wanna wait):

Any input is greatly appreciated. Thanks a bunch guys!

Cheers!

 

[Craig James]

Hi, welcome!

If you really are just starting out then initially you will find it hard to match the existing bevel on the knife. A sharpie is a must for this.

Also, you will probably make the blade worse before you make it better. Definitely start out on a knife you don’t really care about. It’s easier if it’s still made from a decent steel.

Most people will always develop a burr, I generally sharpen my kitchen knives on an 800 JIS chosera, even when touching up I develop a small burr.

Your 1000 stone is fine for touching up and sharpening, however if you don’t match the existing apex then you will be grinding for a long time...

good luck!

 

[brukuns]

Hi, welcome!

If you really are just starting out then initially you will find it hard to match the existing bevel on the knife. A sharpie is a must for this.

Also, you will probably make the blade worse before you make it better. Definitely start out on a knife you don’t really care about. It’s easier if it’s still made from a decent steel.

Most people will always develop a burr, I generally sharpen my kitchen knives on an 800 JIS chosera, even when touching up I develop a small burr.

Your 1000 stone is fine for touching up and sharpening, however if you don’t match the existing apex then you will be grinding for a long time...

good luck!

Thanks Craig, I appreciate the input. The truth hurts. lol

I’m dying to improve my good knife but you are absolutely right. Chances of screwing up are huge with Zero practice.

I do have a nice knife that was damaged with that sharpener, I’ll try to fix it, it will be a great starting point.

 

[David Martin]

brukuns, bienvenido en este forma. The first stone you name is about all you need. You should have a more coarse stone at 100 grit and the
320 grit in SiC. It's the same as carborundum. Then maybe your steeling rod. That will carry you a long way. I don't sharpen a knife higher than
400 grit SiC. DM

 

[Rhinoknives1]

I suggest you start & practice with the crappist knife you have in the kitchen. Also you want to develop a burr! If you haven’t You haven’t sharpened the blade. I almost forgot.............. Welcome! That Brazilian BBQ sounds delicious!

 

[Ourorboros]

If your nice knife is something hardened to 60+ HRC, or a Japanese knife, I wouldn't use the steel.

 

[willc]

The 1K stone should be just fine for your new knife.
As mentioned before a sharpie marker will help and I also suggest a loupe or some sort of magnification to inspect the edge as you sharpen.

Also another great idea mentioned previously is to get some second hand but decent quality knives and practice away on them.
Good luck.

 

[brukuns]

brukuns, bienvenido en este forma. The first stone you name is about all you need. You should have a more coarse stone at 100 grit and the
320 grit in SiC. It's the same as carborundum. Then maybe your steeling rod. That will carry you a long way. I don't sharpen a knife higher than
400 grit SiC. DM

Actually I just noticed the stone is actually a 120/320. so I should be settled on that front. Thanks for the tip!

I suggest you start & practice with the crappist knife you have in the kitchen. Also you want to develop a burr! If you haven’t You haven’t sharpened the blade. I almost forgot.............. Welcome! That Brazilian BBQ sounds delicious!

Noted, that's exactly what I'll do. I'll have to wait for the 120/320 to arrive though, I wanna do this properly.

As for the BBQ... I feel so silly saying that I'm cooking brazilian BBQ and then posting a picture of a Prime Rib! hahaha. Unfortunately My picanha pics didn't display the knife

If your nice knife is something hardened to 60+ HRC, or a Japanese knife, I wouldn't use the steel.

I checked and it's just 53hrc. I should be ok.

The 1K stone should be just fine for your new knife.
As mentioned before a sharpie marker will help and I also suggest a loupe or some sort of magnification to inspect the edge as you sharpen.

Also another great idea mentioned previously is to get some second hand but decent quality knives and practice away on them.
Good luck.

I'm convinced I should use a sharpie... that post with the 7 Secrets explained it perfectly how and why to use (and how important it is to keep checking your work throughout).

I got some crappy knives and I'll start with them. I still have some hope that I'm a natural and will achieve ninja level sharpness on my first try... sure.

 

[Eli Chaps]

Welcome brukuns. You've been given great advice and good for you for heeding it.

I'll only add to go slow. Often we see people in videos sharpening so fast it's a blur and it looks super cool and we want to emulate that. Resist the urge. That kind of speed comes from practice and confidence.

Keep us posted and never hesitate to ask questions. These folks are awesome and always willing to help!

 

[brukuns]

Welcome brukuns. You've been given great advice and good for you for heeding it.

I'll only add to go slow. Often we see people in videos sharpening so fast it's a blur and it looks super cool and we want to emulate that. Resist the urge. That kind of speed comes from practice and confidence.

Keep us posted and never hesitate to ask questions. These folks are awesome and always willing to help!

Thanks Eli Chaps! I'll make sure to keep you guys posted... and I'm also great at asking questions (not so much at answering them. hahaha)

Yup... slow and steady. Slow and steady. build muscle memory.

 

[Tjstampa]

Always remember that you need to practice. I use a sharpie and loop to see the edge I am working on. Those meats you are cutting on look delicious. Sharpening to me is relaxing and enjoyable. Ask away there is a lot of knowledge and good people here.

 

[brukuns]

My 120/320 has arrived! The 120 has the name of the brand engraved in it... won't that affect anything? All the talk about flattening stones after each use and these guys carve names on the stone?!Either way I'm inclined to just use the 320 as my starting point.

QUESTION

One thing I'm wondering (and I've seen conflicting opinions) is... After I raise a burr on the 320 and then remove it, once I progress to the 1000 should I raise a burr again?

I've read people saying that yes, and other (this guy basically:

) saying that no... that once you move to the 1000 it's just refinement.

doesn't it make sense to raise a burr again on the 1000 to make sure you remade the scratches all the way to the edge? And won't it be faster anyway because the blade has already been apexed?

Thanks again!

 

[Tjstampa]

Yes raise the burr again.

IMHO as long as the knife is not catching on the stones with the ingraving it should be fine. Many diamond hones are not solid but have a interrupted pattern such as the dmt duo sharp.

 

[brukuns]

Yes raise the burr again.

IMHO as long as the knife is not catching on the stones with the ingraving it should be fine. Many diamond hones are not solid but have a interrupted pattern such as the dmt duo sharp.

thanks! And good point about the interrupted pattern. It’s not uneven contact, it’s no contact at all.

 

[Ourorboros]

I'll only add to go slow. Often we see people in videos sharpening so fast it's a blur and it looks super cool and we want to emulate that. Resist the urge. That kind of speed comes from practice and confidence.

I always forget about this. With steels especially you see movie/tv scenes where the 'chef' is going back and forth really fast, making the steel sing. Don't do that.

One constant in sharpening, regardless of tools and motions, is to keep as constant an angle as possible. Control is the key. Be aware of not only your hands, but posture.

 

[Craig James]

My 120/320 has arrived! The 120 has the name of the brand engraved in it... won't that affect anything?

Glad to hear it. One further bit of advice, remember that the knife should be super sharp off that 320 stone, I.e shaving you arm hair and cutting paper. It can be tempting to move up in your progression when starting out before fully apexing the edge. You won’t get anywhere if you do this.

If you are anything like me you’ll find removing the burr the hardest bit get right. This last stage can be frustrating but makes a dramatic difference in how sharp the knife is. It’s also a lot harder for softer steels.

you talk about refinement but you will find that your 1000 stone will raise a burr with very little time spent on the stone - all be it smaller.

for me I find that removing the majority of the burr on the stone, and then the remnants on a bare leather strip works for me

 

[Ace Rimmer]

One thing I'm wondering (and I've seen conflicting opinions) is... After I raise a burr on the 320 and then remove it, once I progress to the 1000 should I raise a burr again?

I've learned a great deal from this forum and have improved my sharpening skills tremendously. Still, I consider myself very much a "n00b". So, I have to ask... Once a blade is properly apexed, how can you not raise a burr when moving to the next grit? It seems to me that it will occur naturally whether you desire it to or not. For example, I can feel a burr forming even after a couple of light strokes on 60,000 grit (0.3 micron) 3M lapping film. It's always going to form and then require steps to remove (or so I would think).

 

[bgentry]

So, I have to ask... Once a blade is properly apexed, how can you not raise a burr when moving to the next grit? It seems to me that it will occur naturally whether you desire it to or not.

The burr forms when you grind all the way to the edge and there is an apex. But bevels aren't perfectly flat and our grinding isn't perfectly flat either. If you are grinding more towards the shoulder of the blade, you can actually polish a good bit of the edge bevel and not touch the very, very edge. Jason B calls this "sneaking up on the edge" and recommends just "kissing" the edge at the end of your grinding once you are in the polishing stages (increasing grits and working through them).

If you are using the two handed stroke (Secret #2), your off hand pressure can provide a great deal of control over where this grinding happens. Move your off hand back towards the spine just a little and you will shift the grind to the shoulder of the bevel. Move your fingers forward *right* to the edge and you are sure to grind the edge bevel and the edge itself, resulting in a burr right away.

Interestingly, you can use this finger pressure on all kinds of systems, including belt sanders, which is what I've been messing with for the past few weeks.

So, if what you really want is to polish the bevel to a certain level, you probably need to do a good bit of polishing with several different grits. It makes sense to *not* form an overt large burr each time. Rather, minimizing the burr, by keeping the polishing back away from the edge, and then *just* kissing it at the end to make sure you get all the way to the edge, seems like a good idea. Though I must admit that this is mostly theory for me at this point. I'm not good enough with my technique to achieve this. At least not yet.


Brian.

 

[Ace Rimmer]

The burr forms when you grind all the way to the edge and there is an apex. But bevels aren't perfectly flat and our grinding isn't perfectly flat either. If you are grinding more towards the shoulder of the blade, you can actually polish a good bit of the edge bevel and not touch the very, very edge.

Thank you. This makes sense to me. I will have to pay more attention to what I am doing and see how it works out for me.

 

[brukuns]

I have tried the 120/320 on a somewhat crappy knive I had laying around... A few things I noticed:

1. The movement is not difficult, but it does take practice indeed. I managed to really scratch the profile of the knife on the first few passes. Just a bit of practice was enough for me to adjust that.

2. I could actually feel the burr and now I know what it feels like...

3. After forming the burr on one side and then forming the burr on the other side, I could actually still feel the burr on both sides. Probably messed up the angles or something.

4. Stropping is hard. Removing the burr is hard. I don't think I managed to do it properly. I'm feeling inclined to just pass the edge over a cork next time. Not as accurate as stropping on the stone, but with my ability it might just give me a better result.

5. Feeling inclined to get a sharpening angle guide/clip.