Pictures that the media didn't want us to see. (Very Graphic)

[Ferrous Wheel]

Hey, HD, the Christians said the same thing in the 800's CE when the vikings (specifically the Danes) started their operations in Ireland and Britain.

Sleiman...you're fine, not stirring up anything I can't cope with. We're adults here, even tho thinngs get heated perhaps, I like to think that the Cantina is a place where flaming and other bad online bahavior does not happen. You provide good counterpoints, and in most cases we can all agree to disagree on topics that we have divergent opinions.

You should see Munk and I tangle sometimes, and we're pretty similar guys when we're not running our mouths and goin OT on threads.

Keith

 

[munk]

What Keith means is despite myself I can't help but like him very much.




munk

 

[Rusty]

Like munk, let me assure you are more than welcome to stay around and continue posting.

Uncle Bill often says " What has this to do with khukuries? Everything! "

There are an extraordinary number of intelligent folk browsing and contributing to this forum. It's awesome when you think about it. And most all of them treat others kindly and gently ( most of the time ) because someone usually has some things to teach us. You obviously have a perspective that sees to one side of the heart of the matter, whether we like it or not.

Pull up a chair next to the wood stove, take off your shoes, and kick back a bit. This place is called the Cantina after the bar scene in the first Star Wars. In other words, aliens are accepted. Sometimes most of us feel like aliens except here.

 

[munk]

Rusty, I kept waiting for you to step in and say that. That now infamous line is entrusted to your hands. It's best delivered by you.

..................


It's ironic that these 'invaders' have created a condition where an Iraq Council is writing it's own Constitution, and the disent is blowing people up. Under Saddam, they wouldn't be blowing too many up- unless they were the targets Saddam wanted. This is why the model of invading Army is not valid by itself.

Saudi has taken to condeming many terrorist acts since the Wahhabi sect has now turned upon Royal control.
In the past, condemnations were public, while too often approval was private.



munk

 

[sleiman]

Our grocer is from Lebanon. He is a Christian. They moved to the US cause the Islamic militias in the 70's destroyed their farm and ran most of the Christians out of the area.

It is quite true that many Christians were run out of their homes during the Lebanese Civil War by Muslims. The same can be said of Muslims being driven from their homes by Christian militias. Lest anyone think that this represents warfare divided along religious lines, let me also add that Christians and Muslims were also driven from their homes by Christian and Muslim militias respectively... It's very easy for people to imagine that the Lebanese Civil War was a 'religious' war. It wasn't. (I don't believe that any war is but perhaps that's for another discussion...)

I believe this to be due to the fact that the majority of Imams are Arabs and the Arabs have the religion locked up. I know here locally the Arabs who run the mosque, which was on the ground before there were very many Islamic Arabs living here, consider muslims of difft. nationalities as not real muslims. That only the arabs can give true interpretation of Islam.

Given that less than 20% of the world's Muslims are Arabs, I find it difficult to imagine that these 'diehards' are representative of Islam. They remind me of the KKK. As they say, birds of a feather... I will say though that an understanding of Arabic, in particular, classical Arabic is a MUST in order to fully appreciate the Qur'an. However, this is NO different to the need to have a knowledge of classical Greek in order to fully understand the works of Homer. One doesn't need to be an Arab to know Arabic. As an example, some of the most creative English I have ever heard has come from the mouths of Indians.

Also an example of the stone age mentaility of Islam is the fact that when Khomeni issued the death sentence on Salmon Rushdie, our local paper interviewed worshippers at the local mosque, and the MAJORITY supported his death sentence.(Cat Stevens did too )These aren't illiterate camel drivers most of these guys are highly educated professionals.

Is this stone age mentality different to the mentality that would like to see helicopter gunships spraying gunfire at Iraqis in order to 'lay down the law'? A few weeks after that famous death sentence 'fatwa', at a meeting of the Islamic Congress, forty-four of the forty-five member states (Iran being the odd one out...) condemned the ruling as being un-Islamic...

The reporting of such 'stone age' practices make it appear that they are more prevalent than they actually are. I would recommend seeing such punishments as more of a 'maximum' penalty. Islamic judges are under no 'religious' or 'legal' obligation to hand out such punishments, just as Western judges are under no legal obligation to hand out the death sentence. Of course they can do so but judges (both Western and Islamic) are just susceptible to predjudice as anybody else (witness the pathetic attempt by a Sudanese court to apply death by stoning to one lady for sex out of wedlock as well as the US tendency to hand out the death sentence more often to minorities. As I said, predjudice is alive EVERYWHERE...) As a side note, would anybody on this forum agree that stealing money from a bank is worth more prison time than a rape? Islamic countries are not the only countries in the world with draconian laws....

It's ironic that these 'invaders' have created a condition where an Iraq Council is writing it's own Constitution, and the disent is blowing people up. Under Saddam, they wouldn't be blowing too many up- unless they were the targets Saddam wanted. This is why the model of invading Army is not valid by itself.

I take your point munk but while most Iraqis want peace and stability in their country I fail to see how a hand picked council designed to serve the interests of the occupiers is a positive development. What would be postive is if the Iraqis were 'allowed' to return to running their country. The Iraqis are not ignorant dunderheads. Despite their 'ruler' they were running a sovereign state before the invasion and there is no reason to believe that they could not do so after the invasion. What they needed was technical and procedural support in order to 'fine tune' the governmental and political appartus. What the Iraqis didn't need was a war, especially after a decade of sanctions that crippled the country.

Everyone believes that the coalition are in Iraq for their reasons and their reasons alone, with altruism, I'd imagine, being somewhat low on the list. Goodness by default is not something that any rational person could put their faith or trust in. Given the everchanging rationale for invading Iraq in the first place, surely you can appreciate that many people would be skeptical.

What would you like to see in Iraq?

Having never found myself in a situation where I and my country were both under occupation at the same time, I in all honesty, cannot answer that question with any certainty. I can tell you what I wouldn't like to see but I think that I have already commented enough on that.

My whole point really, has been to show that while a lot of what gets reported on TV IS reprehensible and has no real benefit to Iraqis, that there IS a greater picture that I feel needs to be understood. I have also tried to show that this 'greater picture' (note that I am NOT referring to the reprehensible acts) is rational and not necessarily something that should be a casue for concern. Certainly one shouldn't be shocked by it, after all, everyone's blood is red, isn't it?

Sleiman

 

[munk]

Sleiman, your perception that the council is 'handpicked' by 'occupiers' is not accurate in my estimation towards the broader view of reality. This infers they are puppets, of no use, and Iraq's soveriegn interests not engaged. I don't beleive that. We disagree and are not likely to.

I do appreciate that your posts are considerate and not hostile. I hope you've found my own the same.

take care,
munk

edit: it comes down to this: you can see the council as handpicked, serving only the interests of the occupiers, or you can see that the US presence in Iraq is mutually beneficial to both the US, World stability, and Iraq sovereignty. It is not neccesary for the US to have solely altruistic motives for this relationship to be good. Many seem to place the issue on one side or another- we are either occupiers or saviors. The truth is we are neither.
To dismiss the Council out of hand is a grave mistake. To lable us as occupiers a similar mistake. These classic definitions have no meaning in this complex situation. None the less, a situation that could be great for all concerned if the nay sayers would stop abettting violence. Criticsim against the US along these lines- straight and narrow- aides and comforts those who would murder.

 

[Don Nelson]

Sleiman;

You wrote, "Of course they can do so but judges (both Western and Islamic) are just susceptible to predjudice as anybody else (witness the pathetic attempt by a Sudanese court to apply death by stoning to one lady for sex out of wedlock as well as the US tendency to hand out the death sentence more often to minorities. As I said, predjudice is alive EVERYWHERE...)"

Me: This troubles me a bit because it highlights to me that it is a comment made without a knowledge of all the facts.

The facts are, as a percentage of population, in the United States, more murders and capital offenses ARE committed by minorities, and to a very much larger degree. That is a fact.

If you look at the murder rate here in California where I live, murders by white perpetrators are extremely rare, where as a day doesn't go by that at least a few murders are committed by Latino, Black, and Asian gang members, with the hugest percentage by far among the Latino and Black gangs.

It is a fact that one quarter of all black males under the age of 25 have had some "negative encounter" with the criminal justice system, ie, been arrested at a minimum.

One would be advised to read the report "The Color of Crime", written by the New Century Foundation think-tank. Their information is gleaned from hundreds of federal, state and city law enforcement and economic studies.

I further recommend Larry Elder's book, "The Ten Things You Can't Say in America" which has an extensive bibliography and citations to dozens of criminal justice studies.

One study I read stated that if you factored out all the violent crime committed by blacks and Latinos in America, that America's violent crime rate would be similar to that of Sweden.

It wearies me to always have everything painted in racial overtones. Now, the question as to why blacks and Latinos are so prevalent within the context of the criminal justice system is a topic too large and complex for discussion here. But the fact is, if you have certain groups committing a lot of crimes, they are going to be represented in the criminal justice system more often. But to simply chalk that off as racism or prejudice at work is less than intellectually honest.

Also, by the time most defendents are given death sentences, they normally have a long history of repeated arrests for violent crimes. A person's past criminal history *IS* considered within the context of sentencing, and rightly so.

Respectfully,

Don

PS: Also, everyone please assume that I have written all the usual politically correct disclaimers stating that I recognize that just because a certain percentage of a certain population do commit crimes that does not mean they ALL commit crimes (no kidding ) and of course I have lots of black and Latino and Asian friends (because I do) not that that makes one hill of beans difference.

I get so tired of the fact that because I'm caucasian and I look at two dirtbags, one a white dirtbag and the other a dirtbag "of color" that if I say the white guy is a dirtbag I'm simply stating a fact, but if I say the dirtbag-of-color is a dirtbag, that the knee-jerk response is to accuse me of being a racist because I pointed out a negative opinion about someone else who's a different color than me.

To me a dirtbag is a dirtbag, and a dirtbag of color would still be a dirtbag even if he were white.

Don

 

[Ferrous Wheel]

here here! It's always the 20% of radicals, hard-liners, facists and fanatix wreckin it fer all of us. That much seems universal.

Keith

 

[munk]

Good post, Don Nelson!



munk

 

[Kismet]

The over-whelming majority of violent crimes in the U.S. are committed by men. Very few violent crimes are ever committed by eunuchs.

Therefore, logic dictates (I HAD to!) That all men in the U.S. should line outside the designated hydraulic paper-cutters used for trim in printing plants to help the nation fight its violent crime rate.



( I love it when there is a simple solution.)


Kis


(edit: [this is getting better and better] This will be a future requirement for all individuals seeking public office, and written proof is NOT sufficient.)

 

[munk]

The males of many species are not savory. A male goat smells, is jealous and possessive, and earns the title 'randy'. In some ways we're lucky we're allowed to be alive. I don't think we'd be alive if a Boss Male Goat was in charge, or a Bull.



munk

 

[crooked knife]

I have followed this thread with great interest, wonder, and in the end what I have from it all is a great sense of reassurance as to the character of the people in this "cantina". The quote attributed to Uncle Bill in that "what has this to do with khukuri's, everything" has really struck home. This forum is a community in the true sense, one where people truely care and are tolerant of each other regardless of the depth of their differences. I have learned to believe that friends are those people to whom you feel comfortable revealing your deepest and strongest feelings without fear of rejection or ridicule. That has certainly been proven here. I'm proud to consider myself to be a member of this community with a common interest [khukuri's]. This may not be any big deal to some, but it is to me.

 

[munk]

You've been a little scarce of late, Crooked Knife.






munk

 

[crooked knife]

I've been out of state for about a month. Went down to Florida to visit my sister who has been badgering me about going to visit her for twenty-five years. I was about due. Did you miss me?

 

[munk]

Yeppers. How'd you find the Crime State? Between cocktails, beaches, and glasses of orange juice, I mean.





munk

 

[hollowdweller]

Lest anyone think that this represents warfare divided along religious lines, let me also add that Christians and Muslims were also driven from their homes by Christian and Muslim militias respectively... It's very easy for people to imagine that the Lebanese Civil War was a 'religious' war. It wasn't. (I don't believe that any war is but perhaps that's for another discussion...)

Given that less than 20% of the world's Muslims are Arabs, I find it difficult to imagine that these 'diehards' are representative of Islam. They remind me of the KKK. As they say, birds of a feather... I will say though that an understanding of Arabic, in particular, classical Arabic is a MUST in order to fully appreciate the Qur'an. However, this is NO different to the need to have a knowledge of classical Greek in order to fully understand the works of Homer. One doesn't need to be an Arab to know Arabic. As an example, some of the most creative English I have ever heard has come from the mouths of Indians.



Is this stone age mentality different to the mentality that would like to see helicopter gunships spraying gunfire at Iraqis in order to 'lay down the law'? A few weeks after that famous death sentence 'fatwa', at a meeting of the Islamic Congress, forty-four of the forty-five member states (Iran being the odd one out...) condemned the ruling as being un-Islamic...

Sleiman

Sleiman,

Good post. I agree that the Lebanese Civil war was about religion as much as the conflict in Ireland is. Didn't the Christian militia, with help from Israel slaughter a bunch of Palestinian refugees in 1982? How Jesus like is that?

The Catholic mass used to be in Latin, but with they decided to modernize.

I am totally in agreement with you about the killing of Iraqis. I think the US squandered a tremendous amount of goodwill offered them by the Iraquis by failing to have enough troops and plans to keep civil order. Then we basically took the game book from the Israelis (and Saddam) for collective punishment of the population. End result even the middle of the road people hate us now.

The problem comes from a President and administration who believes in LESS government and hands off government getting into a war and occupation that requires a tremendous amount of government spending and micro management.

I don't agree with your KKK analogy. While the Klan is bad, they aren't a worldwide organization. I'd say the Islamic guys are more like the abortion clinic bombers but on a global scale. But still, there is no global movement based on Christianty, or Buddhisim, or any other religion that advocates killing of innocent civilians loosely based on religion.

 

[hollowdweller]

I fail to see how a hand picked council designed to serve the interests of the occupiers is a positive development. ...What they needed was technical and procedural support in order to 'fine tune' the governmental and political appartus. What the Iraqis didn't need was a war, especially after a decade of sanctions that crippled the country.

Sleiman

Where I live the economy sucks. People move out of state all the time to work. They could live here but it is easier to live higher somewhere else. Then when the economy gets better they move back here and want to try to make here like everywhere else. Meanwhile all of us who have found a way and made the sacrafices to live here have to put up with them telling us how backward we are.

I always feel like these folks are traitors, because they could have stayed here and worked to make things better, but then when times get better they move back.

I can't help but feel that is how a lot of Iraquis feel about Chalabi and the other crooks we put on the governing council. I mean shouldn't it be the people who didn't cut and run who get to call the shots?

 

[hollowdweller]

Sleiman;

It wearies me to always have everything painted in racial overtones. Now, the question as to why blacks and Latinos are so prevalent within the context of the criminal justice system is a topic too large and complex for discussion here. But the fact is, if you have certain groups committing a lot of crimes, they are going to be represented in the criminal justice system more often. But to simply chalk that off as racism or prejudice at work is less than intellectually honest.
Don

Bill Clinton once addressed this. I wish I could remember his exact words.

Basically he said we needed to find a way to eliminate racial profiling by police. But in order to do that we had to be honest about the statistics and realize WHY police profile people of certain races. Then he went on to cite several of the statistics you mention above and said that part of the solution was to figure out a way eliminate the disproportionate number of crimes commited by certain ethnic groups, because that was at least in part responsible for their increased scrutiny by police.

 

[crooked knife]

The place was really flat, it took some getting used to. I did manage to stay out of trouble. I spent most of my time in the Cape Canaveral area, at Rockledge just south of Cocoa Beach. I pretty much skipped the orange juice and concentrated on Grapefruit juice, it's the best I have ever had. The weather at the time was just gorgeous with highes of 75 degrees and lows around 55 degrees. I picked the absolutely best time of year to visit. My sister tells me the summers are just awful, 95 degrees with 98% humidity. I think I will stick with SoCal, smog, earthquakes, and all. It is good to be back, I missed all of you too. I bet I missed some good deals also.

 

[munk]

Crooked Knife- did you see a Eastern Diamondback? I've always wanted to. That's what I'd have spent any free time looking for.


munk