san mai copyright ????????????

hardingknives

hardingknives

Joined
Mar 29, 2010
Messages
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OK, so an acquaintance of mine mentioned sanmai on his website, cold steel sent him a threatening letter to remove and retract all things reguarding sanmai as they have it trademarked. How can cold steel say they have the patend on sanmai? If that's the case then 80 percent of you are violating their copyright. What say you?
 
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San Mai generally refers to knives with the hard steel hagane forming the blade's edge and the iron/stainless forming a jacket on both sides. In the United States, SAN MAI is a registered trademark of Cold Steel, Inc., U.S. Reg. Nos. 1471971, 3540202 and 3540187.[1]

Well, I guess there's THAT...
 
What did he say that would violate a trademark? He can't USE the mark on goods; only Cold Steel can. But he can sure "mention" the mark. "Chevrolet" See I did it.
 
Ahh, but SAN MAI III, NOT JUST SAN MAI , I still call BS, its a practice of low carbon jacket over high carbon core, started out as wrought over a steel core. Cant any one person claim that
 
This is like someone copywriting "hamon," it's ridiculous. Using it in the way he did, I don't see how it would hold up in a court, any legal experts want to weigh in?
 
Sanmai 三枚 is a standard Japanese word to describe this construction. I wonder if Cold Steel plans to sue everybody in Japan too? :rolleyes:
 
No. Assuming the OP is accurate, it is not like copyrighting anything. THE OP says it's trademarked.

Nor does this have anything to do with patent law.

Apparently what was done would be like GM saying it's making a F-150 truck or a Ram truck. That's not a comment on F-150's or Dodge Ram trucks. It's a comment on what the "friend" is making. Only CS can use that mark for its goods, unless you get a court to hold that the mark is not legitimate.

The registered trademark is "San Mai." First registered in 1987.

He could say it's better than San Mai or as good as San Mai. But he had better be prepared for the lawsuit when CS claims his goods are not of that quality.

Here is a good summary of trademark law from the feds: http://www.uspto.gov/page/about-trademarks
 
You could always go the hipster route and call it san mei (the Chinese pronunciation of 三枚) since, like, the Chinese did 3 layers steel way before the Japanese brought it main stream. :p
 
san mai is just a method not a thing, could be made up of several different materials, you can say san mai all you want, but cant put "SAN MAI III" ON A BLADE. I think this is something that really needs addressed. So Aldo is selling and making san mai, are they going after him? Its a ridiculous action on cold steels part. Thanks for your input Thomas, Im not saying what you said is wrong, just that I think that company is
 
Sounds like something Cold Steel would do. Kind of like that company that trademarked "bushcraft".

Taken from their website: "Made in Japan according to our strict standards since the mid 1980's, San Mai III® has proven unsurpassed in strength, toughness, sharpness and ease of re-sharpening. Over the years, other "super steels" have come and gone but San Mai III® remains as the most proven high performance stainless steel in the world."

So they're saying there is no other steel as strong, tough, sharp, or easy to sharpen as their "San Mai III"? I think I have to call serious BS here. Where are the tests (independent or otherwise) that confirm this? And as far as being the most "proven high performance steel", that's also pegging out my BS meter. I think somebody should sue them for false advertising. :rolleyes:

hardingknives said:
Its a ridiculous action on cold steels part.
Click to expand...

Cold Steel and Ridiculous have been synonymous for quite some time now. While I own several of their older models, I just can not bring myself to given them another dime given their latest publicity.

I wonder if Forged In Fire is getting a letter... I've seen San Mai referred to, and even printed on screen, on a number of their episodes.
 
Agreed.

Do note that "bushcraft" was trademarked only in connection with naming an online forum. I think that stinks too, but there it is. Go along or challenge the legality.
 
online purveyors are still selling san mai steel, i wonder why cold steel has not thrown the book at them.
 
I got an email from Lynn about a page on my website referencing San Mai. Kind of a jerk move if you ask me.
 
I stand corrected, it wasn't something he said, its written on his website in a description" of san mai "
 
I'm thinking of Trademarking "Damascus". :D

I guess CS was able to do this because they took a term from a foreign language that was completely uncommon in the US at the time and adopted it. We probably wouldn't be using the term if it weren't for CS, like we do with "Band Aid".

People in the US or anywhere else the TM covers should be using "laminate", I suppose. Or whatever the Scandinavians have been calling it forever. Otherwise it is like calling a hamburger "Big Mac" or "Whopper".
 
It looks like they have 3 separate trademarks related to san mai. All of the trademarks show their san mai logo (which if you actually read the logo it says s'an mai) as the trademark, and it's described as being the words with the "bars, bands, lines" behind it. I'm no lawyer, but to me it appears they don't own the words themselves. This is likely just Lynn being his old self.

Word Mark SAN MAI
Translations The foreign wording in the mark translates into English as "three layer".
Goods and Services IC 008. US 023 028 044. G & S: Folding knives; Hunting knives; Sport knives. FIRST USE: 19860722. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19860722
Mark Drawing Code (3) DESIGN PLUS WORDS, LETTERS, AND/OR NUMBERS
Design Search Code 26.17.02 - Bands, wavy; Bars, wavy; Lines, wavy; Wavy line(s), band(s) or bar(s)
26.17.05 - Bands, horizontal; Bars, horizontal; Horizontal line(s), band(s) or bar(s); Lines, horizontal
Trademark Search Facility Classification Code INAN Inanimate objects such as lighting,clouds,footprints,atomic configurations,snowflakes,rainbows,flames
NOTATION-SYMBOLS Notation Symbols such as Non-Latin characters,punctuation and mathematical signs,zodiac signs,prescription marks
NUM-3 The number 3 or the word Three
SHAPES-BAR-BANDS Designs with bar, bands or lines
SHAPES-MISC Miscellaneous shaped designs
Serial Number 77455749
Filing Date April 23, 2008
Current Basis 1A
Original Filing Basis 1A
Published for Opposition September 16, 2008
Registration Number 3540202
Registration Date December 2, 2008
Owner (REGISTRANT) Cold Steel, Inc. CORPORATION CALIFORNIA 6060 Nicolle Street Ventura CALIFORNIA 93003
Attorney of Record Glenn J. Dickinson
Prior Registrations 1471971
Description of Mark Color is not claimed as a feature of the mark. The mark consists of the words "SAN MAI" followed by three horizontal wavy lines.
Type of Mark TRADEMARK
Register PRINCIPAL-2(F)
Affidavit Text SECT 15. SECT 8 (6-YR).
Live/Dead Indicator LIVE

Word Mark SAN MAI III
Translations The non-Latin character(s) in the mark transliterate into 3, and this means the number 3 in English. The foreign wording in the mark translates into English as "three layer".
Goods and Services IC 008. US 023 028 044. G & S: Folding knives; Hunting knives; Sport knives. FIRST USE: 19860722. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19860722
Standard Characters Claimed
Mark Drawing Code (4) STANDARD CHARACTER MARK
Trademark Search Facility Classification Code NUM-3 The number 3 or the word Three
Serial Number 77455291
Filing Date April 22, 2008
Current Basis 1A
Original Filing Basis 1A
Published for Opposition September 16, 2008
Registration Number 3540187
Registration Date December 2, 2008
Owner (REGISTRANT) Cold Steel, Inc. CORPORATION CALIFORNIA 6060 Nicolle Street Ventura CALIFORNIA 93003
Attorney of Record Glenn J. Dickinson
Prior Registrations 1471971
Type of Mark TRADEMARK
Register PRINCIPAL-2(F)
Affidavit Text SECT 15. SECT 8 (6-YR).
Live/Dead Indicator LIVE

Word Mark SAN MAI
Translations THE ENGLISH TRANSLATION OF THE WORD "SAN MAI" IN THE MARK IS "THREE PIECE".
Goods and Services IC 008. US 023. G & S: SPORTING KNIVES. FIRST USE: 19860722. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19860722
Mark Drawing Code (3) DESIGN PLUS WORDS, LETTERS, AND/OR NUMBERS
Design Search Code 26.17.09 - Bands, curved; Bars, curved; Curved line(s), band(s) or bar(s); Lines, curved
Serial Number 73644095
Filing Date February 11, 1987
Current Basis 1A
Original Filing Basis 1A
Published for Opposition October 20, 1987
Registration Number 1471971
Registration Date January 12, 1988
Owner (REGISTRANT) COLD STEEL INC. CORPORATION CALIFORNIA 3036-A Seaborg Avenue VENTURA CALIFORNIA 93003
Attorney of Record Glenn J. Dickinson
Disclaimer NO CLAIM IS MADE TO THE EXCLUSIVE RIGHT TO USE "SAN MAI" APART FROM THE MARK AS SHOWN
Type of Mark TRADEMARK
Register PRINCIPAL
Affidavit Text SECT 15. SECT 8 (6-YR). SECTION 8(10-YR) 20080102.
Renewal 1ST RENEWAL 20080102
Live/Dead Indicator LIVE
 
"San Mai" can be a registered trademark, but we are all free to use "san mai" as a description of the method, and the finished product. Lawyers tend to overshoot their bounds in the interest of protecting their client's intellectual property, patents and trademarks. In a way our system forces them to do this to prevent trademark dilution. So if someone gets a cease and desist letter, that's not the final judgement. That's just a lawyer who doesn't understand the difference between the common name and the registered trademark. If you are in business, you should have a lawyer, or access to one that can respond to Cold Steel that you were not indeed infringing on their trademark, but using an internationally recognized description of a method of construction, backed up by many many years as a common use phrase. Most of the time this is cut and dry, the "bad" lawyer backs off, sometimes they don't and you have to fight.

Was it a jerk move on Cold Steel's part to trademark this? Or Busse's "Talon Hole"? Yes it was a jerk move, but also a good business decision that gives them some protections and an edge in the market.
 
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