san mai copyright ????????????

Mike Reilly said:
It's not like GM making an F-150 or a Ram. It's more like Ford trying to trademark the word "Truck".
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More like Scott calling it's tissues "Kleenex."

You are, in effect, saying Sam Mai is generic and not associated with the Cold Steel product line. You lose in court unless you successfully challenge a nearly thirty-year-old trademark.

Not that CS is willing to go to court much. :rolleyes:
 
Thomas Linton said:
More like Scott calling it's tissues "Kleenex."

You are, in effect, saying Sam Mai is generic and not associated with the Cold Steel product line. You lose in court unless you successfully challenge a nearly thirty-year-old trademark.
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That doesn't seem to be what J. Hoffman's quoted trademarks indicate. It sounds more like a Golden Arches situation where the words have to be with other marks like three horizontal lines or "III".


It seems like the simplest response to the letter would be to quote this part and send it back to CS:

Disclaimer NO CLAIM IS MADE TO THE EXCLUSIVE RIGHT TO USE "SAN MAI" APART FROM THE MARK AS SHOWN
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This really says it all.
 
Thomas Linton said:
More like Scott calling it's tissues "Kleenex."

You are, in effect, saying Sam Mai is generic and not associated with the Cold Steel product line. You lose in court unless you successfully challenge a nearly thirty-year-old trademark.

Not that CS is willing to go to court much. :rolleyes:
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Did cold steel coin the original usage of san mai (translated 3 layers, IIRC) as it referred to forging/processing steel? I imagine the technique has been around for 100's if not 1000's of years. At which point it began to be referred to as "San Mai" I have no idea. I was under the impression that it was in fact a "generic" reference before Cold Steel decided to put their infamous marketing spin on it.
 
CS didn't file a patent, they registered a trademark. They aren't saying that no one can ever use the words "San Mai", or make san mai, they are saying that they have exclusive right to use the trademark they registered that includes the words "SAN MAI" and "III" or the three squiggly lines as described.

Think of it this way, Microsoft has trademarked "Windows", this does not mean that Andersen or Pella, window manufacturers, can't use the word "Windows". What it does say is that no one can use "Windows" in the manner that Microsoft described in their trademark registration(s). Microsoft's lawyers can and probably have sent threatening Cease & Desist letters to plenty of people using the phrase "Windows", and often those threatening C&Ds have no merit. They don't have to, they are really just a formal threat, not a court order.
 
They are probably targeting SOG for using it. He's gotta defend it all or nothing.
 
As with many things, getting a trademark, copy write, or patent one thing. Defending it successfully in a suit is another. Most big companies use intimidation as their way to keep others from using a non-dependable trademark like San Mai. Many make "don't every do that again" threats, but will not go to court because they know they will loose all rights to the term. The little guys like us just back down. I suspect Left Field Productions would have one of their lawyers reply to Cold Steel and tell them in legalese to go jump in a lake.

Just to be a stickler, the Japanese word is a two character phrase and is more properly written in English as san-mai.
 
It really sounds like from what Stacy has written we should actually be using the term "san-mai" which "should" leave CS no leg to stand on? Not "San Mia", but "san-mai/B]"

Would that not make a difference? We all know us small makers don't have the money to actually fight a court battle.... but I have a question, if they've got San Mia III (note the 3 lines) copyrighted, then where do they get complaining about "San Mia" without the 3 lines?
 
aarongb said:
Yes it was a jerk move, but also a good business decision that gives them some protections and an edge in the market.
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What a sad commentary on our times that "Jerk Move" = Good Business. How I long for a return to the times when being a jerk was a BAD business move....
*sigh*... a boy can dream...
 
Where did the U. of Arkansas get off threatening Gossman (IIRC) for using "Razorback" as his brand. There was zero chance of product confusion even if the U had the right to trademark the word Razorback. Hell, they claim the trademark on "Arkansas" and "Hogs."

"Razorback and wild hog are American colloquialisms, loosely applied to any type of feral domestic pig, wild boar or hybrid in North America; pure wild boar are sometimes called "Russian boar" or "Russian razorbacks". The term "razorback" has also appeared in Australia, to describe feral pigs there."

But it was a little craftsman against a big university. Bully.
 
My understanding is the that d-bag who did that seems to feel that his "trademark" extends a little farther into the interwebz than just forums. Nobody has challenged him yet. They have either just bitched about it, knuckled under as one other forum did, or both.
Thomas Linton said:
Agreed.

Do note that "bushcraft" was trademarked only in connection with naming an online forum. I think that stinks too, but there it is. Go along or challenge the legality.
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Is san mai the trademark or San Mai III? Big difference as san mai has been commonly used in "the trade" for a lot longer than 30 years, I suspect. Where did the Fat Man get the term?
Thomas Linton said:
More like Scott calling it's tissues "Kleenex."

You are, in effect, saying Sam Mai is generic and not associated with the Cold Steel product line. You lose in court unless you successfully challenge a nearly thirty-year-old trademark.

Not that CS is willing to go to court much. :rolleyes:
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Reminds me of the guy trying to trademark "Woote" a decade or so ago... I agree with Stacy, it would not surprise me that if someone with some backing challenged CS that they might "forget about it this time"... Don't know, Id like to see it though..
Using the word san-mai in a description of construction is a galaxy away from trying to rip off CS's mall ninja trinkets..
 
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jdm61 said:
Is san mai the trademark or San Mai III? Big difference as san mai has been commonly used in "the trade" for a lot longer than 30 years, I suspect. Where did the Fat Man get the term?
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Look here https://trademarks.justia.com/774/55/san-mai-77455749.html 73644095 "The mark consists of the words "SAN MAI" followed by three horizontal wavy lines."

A different registration, 77455291, shows "SAN MAI III" as a trademark. https://trademarks.justia.com/774/55/san-mai-iii-77455291.html
 
These are the two protected trademarks:
16JSM_3.jpg

(Note the R after the three lines.)

And the script "San Mai III", which is a way of writing the three horizontal lines with letters, so they protected that as well.


That's all that's protected.
 
I might change my username to San Mai. Heck, I might name my next kid San Mai III. :)
 
I got the email.
John Horrigan got the email.
Others got the email.
If you look at the description of the trademark it states:
" NO CLAIM IS MADE TO THE EXCLUSIVE RIGHT TO USE "SAN MAI" APART FROM THE MARK AS SHOWN".
Meaning, they can't claim the right to be the only ones to use the words. Which would be foolish.
It's just two common Japanese words describing a process.

If you use the Google search function on Blade Forums you'll find over 4000 times right here the words are used! (Better get yer shit together, Blade Forums - yer about to get sued!) And every other knife forum, knife maker, purveyor, steel maker, etc.


I don't get it.

In the email they want retractions and all kinds of bunk.
They want the words San Mai - oops! Violation. - removed from all social media, publications, web sites, reference material, etc.

And then give a 10 day limit to do so like they're acting as judge and jury giving a ruling after hearing a case. B.S.

WTF?

I saw somebody earlier say they were going to register 'damascus'. Just so you know, there are already no less than a dozen trade mark registrations on the word Damascus.

Delbert Ealy better get ready!! He manufactures and sells "Damascus San Mai"!!
Zoe Crist, Aldo Bruno, etc. manufacture market and sell San Mai.
 
J. Hoffman said:
It looks like they have 3 separate trademarks related to san mai. All of the trademarks show their san mai logo (which if you actually read the logo it says s'an mai) as the trademark, and it's described as being the words with the "bars, bands, lines" behind it. I'm no lawyer, but to me it appears they don't own the words themselves. This is likely just Lynn being his old self.

Word Mark SAN MAI
Translations The foreign wording in the mark translates into English as "three layer".
Goods and Services IC 008. US 023 028 044. G & S: Folding knives; Hunting knives; Sport knives. FIRST USE: 19860722. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19860722
Mark Drawing Code (3) DESIGN PLUS WORDS, LETTERS, AND/OR NUMBERS
Design Search Code 26.17.02 - Bands, wavy; Bars, wavy; Lines, wavy; Wavy line(s), band(s) or bar(s)
26.17.05 - Bands, horizontal; Bars, horizontal; Horizontal line(s), band(s) or bar(s); Lines, horizontal
Trademark Search Facility Classification Code INAN Inanimate objects such as lighting,clouds,footprints,atomic configurations,snowflakes,rainbows,flames
NOTATION-SYMBOLS Notation Symbols such as Non-Latin characters,punctuation and mathematical signs,zodiac signs,prescription marks
NUM-3 The number 3 or the word Three
SHAPES-BAR-BANDS Designs with bar, bands or lines
SHAPES-MISC Miscellaneous shaped designs
Serial Number 77455749
Filing Date April 23, 2008
Current Basis 1A
Original Filing Basis 1A
Published for Opposition September 16, 2008
Registration Number 3540202
Registration Date December 2, 2008
Owner (REGISTRANT) Cold Steel, Inc. CORPORATION CALIFORNIA 6060 Nicolle Street Ventura CALIFORNIA 93003
Attorney of Record Glenn J. Dickinson
Prior Registrations 1471971
Description of Mark Color is not claimed as a feature of the mark. The mark consists of the words "SAN MAI" followed by three horizontal wavy lines.
Type of Mark TRADEMARK
Register PRINCIPAL-2(F)
Affidavit Text SECT 15. SECT 8 (6-YR).
Live/Dead Indicator LIVE

Word Mark SAN MAI III
Translations The non-Latin character(s) in the mark transliterate into 3, and this means the number 3 in English. The foreign wording in the mark translates into English as "three layer".
Goods and Services IC 008. US 023 028 044. G & S: Folding knives; Hunting knives; Sport knives. FIRST USE: 19860722. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19860722
Standard Characters Claimed
Mark Drawing Code (4) STANDARD CHARACTER MARK
Trademark Search Facility Classification Code NUM-3 The number 3 or the word Three
Serial Number 77455291
Filing Date April 22, 2008
Current Basis 1A
Original Filing Basis 1A
Published for Opposition September 16, 2008
Registration Number 3540187
Registration Date December 2, 2008
Owner (REGISTRANT) Cold Steel, Inc. CORPORATION CALIFORNIA 6060 Nicolle Street Ventura CALIFORNIA 93003
Attorney of Record Glenn J. Dickinson
Prior Registrations 1471971
Type of Mark TRADEMARK
Register PRINCIPAL-2(F)
Affidavit Text SECT 15. SECT 8 (6-YR).
Live/Dead Indicator LIVE

Word Mark SAN MAI
Translations THE ENGLISH TRANSLATION OF THE WORD "SAN MAI" IN THE MARK IS "THREE PIECE".
Goods and Services IC 008. US 023. G & S: SPORTING KNIVES. FIRST USE: 19860722. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19860722
Mark Drawing Code (3) DESIGN PLUS WORDS, LETTERS, AND/OR NUMBERS
Design Search Code 26.17.09 - Bands, curved; Bars, curved; Curved line(s), band(s) or bar(s); Lines, curved
Serial Number 73644095
Filing Date February 11, 1987
Current Basis 1A
Original Filing Basis 1A
Published for Opposition October 20, 1987
Registration Number 1471971
Registration Date January 12, 1988
Owner (REGISTRANT) COLD STEEL INC. CORPORATION CALIFORNIA 3036-A Seaborg Avenue VENTURA CALIFORNIA 93003
Attorney of Record Glenn J. Dickinson
Disclaimer NO CLAIM IS MADE TO THE EXCLUSIVE RIGHT TO USE "SAN MAI" APART FROM THE MARK AS SHOWN
Type of Mark TRADEMARK
Register PRINCIPAL
Affidavit Text SECT 15. SECT 8 (6-YR). SECTION 8(10-YR) 20080102.
Renewal 1ST RENEWAL 20080102
Live/Dead Indicator LIVE
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Looks like anyone sent a cease and desist letter for using the generic term should cut and paste the trademark and send it back.

I'm going to trade mark Lynn hotpants, a term referring to an overweight aging man wearing short shorts.


I love that they have trademarked smatchet, a design and name that existed long before their company.

It is just like trademarking San mai (of course, their trademark only applies to the word, with the III mark behind it).
 
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