Serious questions about 4034 steel

[upnorth]

4034 as treated by Cold Steel is within 17% of the edge holding of an average factory blade with AUS-8 or 440C.
Cold Steel knows their stuff.

Ok, but it's no longer Cold Steel. It's now "Bean Counter" steel.

 

[Joshua J.]

Ok, but it's no longer Cold Steel. It's now "Bean Counter" steel.

Cold Steel has always sold knives in 420HC and similar, I still have a 420HC Oyabun (9" blade) from 20 years ago and I've happily beat the crap out of it this whole time.

People need to actually look at steel performance before they talk about what kind of steel is best for a given knife: https://knifesteelnerds.com/2020/05/01/testing-the-edge-retention-of-48-knife-steels/
1095 and O1 have the same toughness as S35VN, everyone clamouring for "the good old days" with basic high carbon steel in these big knives are actually just looking at everything through nostalgia glasses.

If we really want to see things improved we should tell GSM to change from 4034SS to AEB-L or 12C27, at 60RC AEB-L is still tougher than 3V, the knives will hold an edge slightly better than 4034SS and overall it's still about 4X tougher than the average basic high carbon steel.

With informed constructive feedback it's entirely possible that GSM will be able to manage Cold Steel better than Lynn Thompson did.
But if all they see on the forums is raging mobs saying they hate everything then the only logical conclusion is to ignore everyone.

 

[Bloodloss]

I'm not buying any knife made with 4034SS no matter the price. Because, it's 4034SS! I don't care how you heat treat it. I don't care what you show me you can do with it. I do not like 4034SS. I do not want 4034SS. There is a myriad of other steels we all want to see Cold Steel making knives in, but I really don't think it's going to happen. GSM only sees numbers. They want to be the hottest thing at Walmart, Costco, Bass pro, ect. Nothing will change until numbers get their attention, and the sad thing is, today there is a huge market for junk.

 

[Chris_Texas]

Cold Steel has always sold knives in 420HC and similar, I still have a 420HC Oyabun (9" blade) from 20 years ago and I've happily beat the crap out of it this whole time.

People need to actually look at steel performance before they talk about what kind of steel is best for a given knife: https://knifesteelnerds.com/2020/05/01/testing-the-edge-retention-of-48-knife-steels/
1095 and O1 have the same toughness as S35VN, everyone clamouring for "the good old days" with basic high carbon steel in these big knives are actually just looking at everything through nostalgia glasses.

If we really want to see things improved we should tell GSM to change from 4034SS to AEB-L or 12C27, at 60RC AEB-L is still tougher than 3V, the knives will hold an edge slightly better than 4034SS and overall it's still about 4X tougher than the average basic high carbon steel.

With informed constructive feedback it's entirely possible that GSM will be able to manage Cold Steel better than Lynn Thompson did.
But if all they see on the forums is raging mobs saying they hate everything then the only logical conclusion is to ignore everyone.

Some knives live in pockets. The emerge every now and then to cut some string or open a package or perhaps, in extreme cases, to process some game animal. That is their intended purpose at any rate. In a knife like this the steel really doesn't matter. Any steel, including the infamous "surgical stainless" will do fine. Just sharpen when it gets dull and it will last lifetimes. Worst case, it takes longer to open your mail.

Other knives live more adventurous lives. They chop and baton, they are hammered through ration cans or used to dig trenches. They might even get stabbed through a car door or be called on to defend the life of their owner.

Knives like this are a tool, and if they fail in the field there is no easy way to replace them and the consequences might be dire.

If I wanted to take up mountaineering I wouldn't buy my rope from Walmart. Nor, I suspect, would anyone here. We all correctly conclude that it is probably crap. In the case of this steel, to the best of my knowledge,with the exception of people employed or sponsored by GSM, every single expert in the industry are all unanimous in their conclusion about 4034. They are all saying the same thing, that it is extremely cheap and not particularly good.

It is possible that none of these people have even tried to really see what it could do when modern science gets after it. It is possible that it has qualities no one outside Lynn Thompson ever suspected. Perhaps you can trust it the way you would 3V, or A2, or S35vn. Perhaps. But someone is gonna need to actually prove it.

And even if this were true and GSM really had discovered some metallurgical magic, the metal remains what it is, a cheap steel that costs a fraction of what the established hard use steels typically cost. GSM wants super-steel prices for liner-steel knives.

 

[Joshua J.]

Some knives live in pockets. The emerge every now and then to cut some string or open a package or perhaps, in extreme cases, to process some game animal. That is their intended purpose at any rate. In a knife like this the steel really doesn't matter. Any steel, including the infamous "surgical stainless" will do fine. Just sharpen when it gets dull and it will last lifetimes. Worst case, it takes longer to open your mail.

Other knives live more adventurous lives. They chop and baton, they are hammered through ration cans or used to dig trenches. They might even get stabbed through a car door or be called on to defend the life of their owner.

Knives like this are a tool, and if they fail in the field there is no easy way to replace them and the consequences might be dire.

If I wanted to take up mountaineering I wouldn't buy my rope from Walmart. Nor, I suspect, would anyone here. We all correctly conclude that it is probably crap. In the case of this steel, to the best of my knowledge,with the exception of people employed or sponsored by GSM, every single expert in the industry are all unanimous in their conclusion about 4034. They are all saying the same thing, that it is extremely cheap and not particularly good.

It is possible that none of these people have even tried to really see what it could do when modern science gets after it. It is possible that it has qualities no one outside Lynn Thompson ever suspected. Perhaps you can trust it the way you would 3V, or A2, or S35vn. Perhaps. But someone is gonna need to actually prove it.

And even if this were true and GSM really had discovered some metallurgical magic, the metal remains what it is, a cheap steel that costs a fraction of what the established hard use steels typically cost. GSM wants super-steel prices for liner-steel knives.

Where you've got this all wrong is assuming that cheap steel is bad, and this is exactly the backward thinking that needs to be put to rest in this conversation.
Today the millions of miles of railroad tracks lining the continent are higher quality steel than the best Japanese Katana from 200 years ago.
The most basic steel produced by modern metallurgy is practically magic compared to the best steel people knew how to make only a few generations ago.
Similarly, 12C27, the steel type I referenced as being "the" ideal stainless steel for large blades, is commonly employed in disposable razors.
Yes, your disposable shaver uses the highest quality and toughest stainless steel in history.

Any time anyone talks trash about 4034SS because of its "price" they are reinforcing a culture of willful ignorance and causing active harm to the legitimacy of this forum.

If you want knife makers and manufacturers to continue dismissing consumers as sheep then by all means believe whatever you want and keep promoting the magical properties of whatever steel is on your favorite knife.
If you want knifemakers and knife enthusiasts to be able to have intelligible conversations then you'd better start using materials DATA in any point you want to make about any knife from here on.

 

[jdk1]

Where you've got this all wrong is assuming that cheap steel is bad, and this is exactly the backward thinking that needs to be put to rest in this conversation.
Today the millions of miles of railroad tracks lining the continent are higher quality steel than the best Japanese Katana from 200 years ago.
The most basic steel produced by modern metallurgy is practically magic compared to the best steel people knew how to make only a few generations ago.
Similarly, 12C27, the steel type I referenced as being "the" ideal stainless steel for large blades, is commonly employed in disposable razors.
Yes, your disposable shaver uses the highest quality and toughest stainless steel in history.

Any time anyone talks trash about 4034SS because of its "price" they are reinforcing a culture of willful ignorance and causing active harm to the legitimacy of this forum.

If you want knife makers and manufacturers to continue dismissing consumers as dumb sheep then by all means believe whatever you want and keep promoting the magical properties of whatever steel is on your favorite knife.
If you want knifemakers and knife enthusiasts to be able to have intelligible conversations then you'd better start using materials DATA in any point you want to make about any knife from here on.

I noticing a theme here. You keep saying 4034 is tough and ideal for large knives. of course its tough, its hardened to 54-55 HRC. That's soft. No, not compared to much older blades, which definitely worked as designed, but compared to what we expect today. In a sword its perfect, I guess. Its harder to damage than a higher carbon blade at 58. But, and this is a big but (cause I like them and I can't deny...), we want a harder edge, a longer lasting edge.

1.4034 has been around since like 1947 and doesn't seem very popular in making knives. According to Larrin , it may have been somewhere in the family tree leading to the development of steels like 13C27 and AEB-L, which are both widely used in knife blades. Even those "improvements" on steels like 4034, have been improved upon by even a cheap steel like 14C28n. On a knife like the Gurkha, I want a strong and lasting edge (within reason and balanced with "toughness").

So, I'll never like 1.4034 as much as you do, though it would work fine for most of my use. Ill give it to you that a big, tough (and quite stainless!) knife can be fashioned from it and be very functional. But, does it have a very good balance of properties for a strong and hard blade, which resists breakage and holds a good edge? Most would likely say NO. SK5 works very well, but isn't SS, of course. The crux of this complaint is that CS made better all around big blades in SK-5 for cheaper. CS made better largish blades in Aus8A. I've read AEB-L makes great big SS blades, maybe 14C28n would be even better! If CS sold a 4034 Trailmaster for $30 like MTech, it would sell like hotcakes. That's what everyone here is saying.

Another is is that CS is making pocket knives in it as well. They could get great better baseline performance by 12C27, another high quality, but cheap and readily available steel. If the alchemists at CS created an insane heat treat for 4034, they'll have a tough row to hoe convincing knife nerds and you'll have to forgive us for being so contrary. This IS the place for knife discussions, anyway! Again, no one thinks 4034 isn't tough, they think its much less than ideal for knives in the current price range. In the end, your input is appreciated, we just need to agree to disagree.

 

[Joshua J.]

I noticing a theme here. You keep saying 4034 is tough and ideal for large knives. of course its tough, its hardened to 54-55 HRC.

Source?
You can't throw around outrageous statements like that without proof.

Again, in practice we know it holds an edge to within 17% of the standards of Spyderco 8Cr13MoV, so no matter what has been done to it, this steel is competitive with the most reputable competing manufacturers.
And yes Cold Steel is still sourcing German steel, not Chinese steel, so you know that this is coming from a highly reputable foundry and is definitely NOT the cheapest steel on the market.

Quite frankly asking for anything better than this is almost splitting hairs, only difference between AEB-L and 4034SS is around 0.15% Carbon:

Bohler-Uddeholm AEB-L Knife Steel Composition Analysis Graph, Equivalents And Overview Version 4.36

Thyssen-Krupp 4034 Knife Steel Composition Analysis Graph, Equivalents And Overview Version 4.36

As much as AEB-L will be better at some things, it's still a trade off of attributes and when we know 4034SS does hold an edge so similarly to the common higher carbon steel types I can't argue Lynn made the wrong choice using the lower alloy steel.
4034SS is one of the best steel types in a large blade, which is exactly where Lynn chose to deploy it.

1.4034 has been around since like 1947 and doesn't seem very popular in making knives. According to Larrin , it may have been somewhere in the family tree leading to the development of steels like 13C27 and AEB-L, which are both widely used in knife blades. Even those "improvements" on steels like 4034, have been improved upon by even a cheap steel like 14C28n. On a knife like the Gurkha, I want a strong and lasting edge (within reason and balanced with "toughness").

"You" want irrational things, not what most people want and not what makes the best product.
Genuine Himalayan Imports Khukuris use basic carbon steel with a differential temper that varies from the mid to low 50's RC range, of all the knives that have moved to 4034SS the Khukuri is the knife that should never be moved off of 4034SS unless they're going to start using 1055.

So, I'll never like 1.4034 as much as you do, though it would work fine for most of my use. Ill give it to you that a big, tough (and quite stainless!) knife can be fashioned from it and be very functional. But, does it have a very good balance of properties for a strong and hard blade, which resists breakage and holds a good edge? Most would likely say NO. SK5 works very well, but isn't SS, of course. The crux of this complaint is that CS made better all around big blades in SK-5 for cheaper. CS made better largish blades in Aus8A.

Enthusiasts say they want carbon steel, but sales numbers say you are in the minority and most people care quite deeply about rust resistance.
Making large blades out of AUS-8 is arguably a mistake.

I've read AEB-L makes great big SS blades, maybe 14C28n would be even better! If CS sold a 4034 Trailmaster for $30 like MTech, it would sell like hotcakes. That's what everyone here is saying.

No one anywhere ever has agued that these knives are not overpriced, you're fighting with windmills.

Another is is that CS is making pocket knives in it as well.

At competitive prices, perfectly suited for the application.

 

[not2sharp]

……At competitive prices, perfectly suited for the application.

One never knows when they’ll need to drop $10 on a Cold Steel gas station knife to scrape bubble gum off their sole.

Why 4034? Just call it Surgical Stainless.

n2s

 

[LostCause]

Again, in practice we know it holds an edge to within 17% of the standards of Spyderco 8Cr13MoV, so no matter what has been done to it, this steel is competitive with the most reputable competing manufacturers.
And yes Cold Steel is still sourcing German steel, not Chinese steel, so you know that this is coming from a highly reputable foundry and is definitely NOT the cheapest steel on the market.

8Cr13MoV is far from something you want to brag about, and calling something 17% as GOOD is something I never wanted to see on Cold Steel thread...

As much as AEB-L will be better at some things, it's still a trade off of attributes and when we know 4034SS does hold an edge so similarly to the common higher carbon steel types I can't argue Lynn made the wrong choice using the lower alloy steel.
4034SS is one of the best steel types in a large blade, which is exactly where Lynn chose to deploy it.

I can smell cope... cope is strong with this one.

"You" want irrational things, not what most people want and not what makes the best product.
Genuine Himalayan Imports Khukuris use basic carbon steel with a differential temper that varies from the mid to low 50's RC range, of all the knives that have moved to 4034SS the Khukuri is the knife that should never be moved off of 4034SS unless they're going to start using 1055.

Kukri is one of those knives that should never be in 4034

Enthusiasts say they want carbon steel, but sales numbers say you are in the minority and most people care quite deeply about rust resistance.
Making large blades out of AUS-8 is arguably a mistake.

Sure... 4034 is selling like hot cakes, oh wait - it doesn't...
While I do agree that AUS-8 is bad choice for large blades, 4034 is a bad choice for making blades in general.

No one anywhere ever has agued that these knives are not overpriced, you're fighting with windmills.

So you want to say that you agree that 4034 is cheap, doesn't perform in it's price range and is not worth it at these prices?

At competitive prices, could be acceptable for the application.

Fixed it for you.

 

[LostCause]

One never knows when they’ll need to drop $10 on a Cold Steel gas station knife to scrape bubble gum off their sole.

Why 4034? Just call it Surgical Stainless.

n2s

Yepp, lots of people would definitely give 10€ for a 4034 folder with triad lock.

About fixed blades tho... you can buy a Mora in better steel for less... soo probably not. But for like 5€ if the design is good and they fix sheath dulling issue - then yeah.

 

[Joshua J.]

One never knows when they’ll need to drop $10 on a Cold Steel gas station knife to scrape bubble gum off their sole.

Why 4034? Just call it Surgical Stainless.

n2s

Like I was saying, 4034SS is a well known steel from a reputable foundry, you don't see anyone complaining about the wide selection of knives in Buck 420HC, or Victorinox 1.4110, complaining about the same type of steel when used by any other brand is just hypocrisy.

 

[LostCause]

Like I was saying, 4034SS is a well known steel from a reputable foundry, you don't see anyone complaining about the wide selection of knives in Buck 420HC, or Victorinox 1.4110, complaining about the same type of steel when used by any other brand is just hypocrisy.

420HC and 4110 are actually step up. 420HC has some Vanadium, Manganese, and Silicon... 4034 does not...

 

[not2sharp]

Like I was saying, 4034SS is a well known steel from a reputable foundry, you don't see anyone complaining about the wide selection of knives in Buck 420HC, or Victorinox 1.4110, complaining about the same type of steel when used by any other brand is just hypocrisy.

Too much talk, too little show. I waiting too see these marvelous new knives tested against their Mtech clones to see if there is there is anything there to justify the 1000% price difference demanded by Cold Steel.

We can then compare them to the traditional Cold Steel product; but, there is no need to go there if they prove inferior to their own clones.

n2s

 

[Chris_Texas]

Source?
You can't throw around outrageous statements like that without proof.

Again, in practice we know it holds an edge to within 17% of the standards of Spyderco 8Cr13MoV, so no matter what has been done to it, this steel is competitive with the most reputable competing manufacturers.
And yes Cold Steel is still sourcing German steel, not Chinese steel, so you know that this is coming from a highly reputable foundry and is definitely NOT the cheapest steel on the market.

Quite frankly asking for anything better than this is almost splitting hairs, only difference between AEB-L and 4034SS is around 0.15% Carbon:

Bohler-Uddeholm AEB-L Knife Steel Composition Analysis Graph, Equivalents And Overview Version 4.36

Thyssen-Krupp 4034 Knife Steel Composition Analysis Graph, Equivalents And Overview Version 4.36

As much as AEB-L will be better at some things, it's still a trade off of attributes and when we know 4034SS does hold an edge so similarly to the common higher carbon steel types I can't argue Lynn made the wrong choice using the lower alloy steel.
4034SS is one of the best steel types in a large blade, which is exactly where Lynn chose to deploy it.


"You" want irrational things, not what most people want and not what makes the best product.
Genuine Himalayan Imports Khukuris use basic carbon steel with a differential temper that varies from the mid to low 50's RC range, of all the knives that have moved to 4034SS the Khukuri is the knife that should never be moved off of 4034SS unless they're going to start using 1055.


Enthusiasts say they want carbon steel, but sales numbers say you are in the minority and most people care quite deeply about rust resistance.
Making large blades out of AUS-8 is arguably a mistake.

No one anywhere ever has agued that these knives are not overpriced, you're fighting with windmills.

At competitive prices, perfectly suited for the application.

How would you know where Cold Steel is getting their metal from? Real Aus8 comes from Japan, and ONLY from Japan. Yet we know from Andrew Demko that their manufacturers in Taiwan regularly pushed low grade and price Chinese Aus8 as a cheap alternative. We know that so.ething similar happened with Cold Steel's efforts with A2 -- they simply could not get it at the quality level they wanted. I think we can assume that this is true of every other steel as well.

Do you really think GSM, the company that no longer includes both pocket clips so that they can save a nickle, knows or cares about the quality difference between the real deal and the knock off? The care about cheap and nothing else. They would probably be happy with silver duct tape if they could get their manufacturers to write "3V" on the side. Again, they want super steel prices for flea market knives, what more do you need to see before you acknowledge the contempt they have for their own customers.

 

[Chris_Texas]

Another question for the group. S35vn / G10 AD10s and SR1 have come down in price pretty significantly from where they were a couple years ago. How? What changed?

 

[LostCause]

Another question for the group. S35vn / G10 AD10s and SR1 have come down in price pretty significantly from where they were a couple years ago. How? What changed?

Possibly the same as the price of 3V SRK, Recon, Warcrafts and AK-47 going down...

They never came back in stock again...

 

[jdk1]

Source?
You can't throw around outrageous statements like that without proof.

AG Russel Knife Steel Chart

Those are the numbers used by almost everybody concerning 4034. You have some bizarre agenda, defending this cheap SS at all cost. Most sources demonstrate 4116 would be better for knife applications. Its HRC runs 55-57, and yes, one or two points on the scale can make a huge difference. You appear hung up on some numbers, like carbon, while ignoring that most decent steels have more alloying elements. 4034 has similar carbon content to 420HC, but 420HC has vanadium, which we know can increase toughness and hardness.

It's not "I" who considers 1.4034 an inferior knife steel, it's the knife community at large, and I'm not the one making "outrageous" statements, its you. While there are plenty of knives made in 4034, they are what knowledgeable people consider very low-end.

Face it. It's a CHEAP, low alloy steel. Period! It CANNOT be compared to 420HC due to vanadium. 4034 is a low allow steel and that's why it suffers in comparison to what many knife manufacturers use. The only reason to use it is cost. Its better than Chinese pot metal, for sure, as Krupp is a reputable manufacturer, but it is still borderline for what knowledgeable knife users want in a steel. So, buy all the 4034 knives you want! They're cheap, usually, and for a good reason

 

[Joshua J.]

Too much talk, too little show. I waiting too see these marvelous new knives tested against their Mtech clones to see if there is there is anything there to justify the 1000% price difference demanded by Cold Steel.

We can then compare them to the traditional Cold Steel product; but, there is no need to go there if they prove inferior to their own clones.

n2s

That will not be a difficult battle to win.
Amazon reviews already state the handle is barely attached to the blade on the Trailmaster clone, but if Mtech can actually make the steel perform then it's hard to argue against it. The beauty of the open market in action, if competing products exist Cold Steel will be forced to react.

 

[jbmonkey]

Where you've got this all wrong is assuming that cheap steel is bad, and this is exactly the backward thinking that needs to be put to rest in this conversation.
Today the millions of miles of railroad tracks lining the continent are higher quality steel than the best Japanese Katana from 200 years ago.
The most basic steel produced by modern metallurgy is practically magic compared to the best steel people knew how to make only a few generations ago.
Similarly, 12C27, the steel type I referenced as being "the" ideal stainless steel for large blades, is commonly employed in disposable razors.
Yes, your disposable shaver uses the highest quality and toughest stainless steel in history.

Any time anyone talks trash about 4034SS because of its "price" they are reinforcing a culture of willful ignorance and causing active harm to the legitimacy of this forum.

If you want knife makers and manufacturers to continue dismissing consumers as sheep then by all means believe whatever you want and keep promoting the magical properties of whatever steel is on your favorite knife.
If you want knifemakers and knife enthusiasts to be able to have intelligible conversations then you'd better start using materials DATA in any point you want to make about any knife from here on.

thought 13c26 was the disposable razor common steel?

 

[goldie]

I got a Cold Steel Kiridashi 4034 steel real cheap (21.00) to try it out. Been using it at work, and im not too impressed by it. Cut some cardboard, plastic straps,nothing too heavy,The edge doesnt last too long,it resharpens pretty easy but like others say, its not really that great .I wouldnt break the doors down for it.Its neck and neck with 3cr13 which is another sock puppet steel. Had a Kershaw Diskin in that steel it dulled when the wind blew.I think for their AUS10 is light years ahead of this crap. They should use AUS10 instead of 4034 and 4116 as their minimum steel.