"Social guns" uses and opinions.

shotgunner11

shotgunner11

Joined
Dec 17, 2005
Messages
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I'm kind of in the middle of a personal delemma and would like the thoughts and opinions of this fine group of survivors in training.

Dispite my screen name and it's obvious overtones, I'm not really much of a gun guy. I own a few and know how to handle them to an extent, go to the range from time to time but money doesn't allow me to be a really regular shooter.

I have been through basic law enforcement firearms training and can handle a handgun with above average civilian ability.

I have used and trained with a scattergun extensively. That's where I've always focused my firearms training. Firstly, because I think that the 12ga. pump action is one of, if not THE best and most versitile defensive tool available to the general public. Secondly, because I was raised with them and they are natural to me and cheaper to practice with. Lastly, I weigh 250 pounds and could always handle them better than alot of smaller statured folks so they seemed like a good fit.

Now on to my serious weak point. The defensive rifle. I'm embarrassed to say it, but I have almost NO training in that area. Being that I'm left handed, I've shot lever action hunting rifles my entire life and been happy with them and thought that they provided all the ability that I needed but lately, as I progress in my preparedness, I feel like perhaps I'm doing myself and my family a dis-service but not training a bit more and having a more capable social rifle around.

Right now, I have no rifle aside from a .22cal. bolt action. A glaring oversite on my part as I traded out my last rifle to TTD for a beautiful revolver.

So, looking to correct this problem, I've been looking at whats available.

Since I'm pretty short on cash (who isn't), I'm trying to find something in the $500 range (thats the value of the compound bow I'll sell or trade for it) and in a caliber that won't break the bank to shoot some and stock up on some ammo for a rainy (or Zombie filled) day.

Not huge on black rifles. Not only is a decent AR out of my price range, but I don't really care much for them. I'm a Glock guy, I like stuff to go bang every time and not have to mess with it much. Also, being a "social" rifle, less tacticool looking is a plus. Flat black, pistol grips, light rails. Well, I keep a gun in my truck most of the time and thats just not what I want a cop to find if he decides to look.

Since my budget won't really allow a Socom 16, I've been thinking about a Ruger Mini. I don't really care much for the .223 caliber, to me, .22's are for squirrells not people, but I don't see a ton of GOOD options.

So, any suggestions for this old fashioned fart to come into the 20th century?
 
1. an ak would serve you better than a mini....they are not known as accuate...
2. lever guns would be very good in this role since you have exp ..its a pluse
3. look into mosin nagants...can be had for a couple of hundred ....sturdy mil rifle
 
Personally, my opinion is that if you have a 12ga. and a .22 rifle you're set for long guns (of course, a semi auto in one or the other would be nice). If you're looking for a center fire rifle that wont break the bank you could look at the mossberg bolt actions, the kel-tec rifles, or just get a siaga in 7.62X39 and convert it to AK pistol grip configuration. Then you'd have a genuine Russian AK for around $600.
 
couple of options, an older marlin camp rifle in either 45 or 9mm would be good, also a good lever action in 44 or 45 is a good defensive rifle stay away from rossi's they need work to be dependable but marlins are very good and easily slicked up to run real fast. all of these can be had under your monetary limits.

also not a thing wrong with a bolt action in 308, or a old sks.

take it easy
cricket
 
While I've owned a Mini for many years, and I hear that they have been improved over my 20-year old model, for defensive purposes I would go with a AR-15 type rifle. They are available at a wide range of price points and can be dressed up or down, depending on your wants, needs and budget.

+1 for the AR in the accessories department.

AR's are easier to make accurate, and if you have any mechanical abilities you can swap out aftermarket triggers. In fact I built my first AR Carbine from a kit.

+1 for the AR in the accuracy department.

There are more smiths working on AR's than on Mini's.

Another plus for the AR.

The advantage that the Mini has, is that's its not a "Black" gun.

Shotgunner, that said, are you wed to the idea of a semi-auto? Given your familiarity with pump-action shotguns,and your desire for a "less tacticool" rifle...I suggest that you go with what you know...

A Remington 7400 Pump Action rifle. Its clip fed, available in a number of cartridges, and I believe that higher capacity magazines are available for some variants. I'd probably opt for one in .308, as ammo is widely available and less expensive.

Best of luck in your search,

Chris

p.s. and its true that its better to be tried by 12, than carried by 6...if God-forbid you had to use your rifle for defensive purposes, you would probably have an easier go with the DA and in court, if it came to that, with a "sporting rifle".
 
Marlin lever action, .30-.30, I noticed one earlier today for $300, with that price you'd still have enough for optics.

ETA: Of course that's more of a deer slayer than a home defensive weapon, but I'd imagine it would do just fine if you had the scope sitting on a mount raised above the sights, so if the target is close you can just look down the sights and not through the scope.
 
Why not stay with a lever action? You're already familiar with those and they can be had with a short barrel (Trapper model) in .357, a very versatile round.

I have a Mini14 in .223 and I've set it up for short range shooting by adding an EOTech sight. It shoots well at short distances. When funds permit, I'd like to shorten the barrel to eliminate some of the flex. If I had it to do over again though, I'd save up for an AR15 or M4. At the time though, I was being frugal.

If you'd like to try my Mini14 sometime, we could go out to Hotwells and pop some caps as the homies say.

Bill
 
Hi shotgunner11,

Can't beat a good combat shotgun for up close. In the USMC I carried both the M-14 and the M-16.

After being accustomed to the M-14, I found the M-16 a little less intuitive. The sight format being held high above the barrel.

The M-14 fires a formidable round - we actually had to fire one segment of our qualification routine from the prone position at 500 yds, with iron sights!

Both of these rifles are available in their newer civilian designations.

I have the Ruger Mini-14. I bought it because it is a "baby M-14" and the sights, fit and feel are all very familiar to me. The .223 is also a really effective round. It is capable of extraodinary performance with the proper practice and has a lot of silent witnesses to it's ability to put a man down for good.

The .223's ammo is loosening up I just got a flier in my email and it was going for $5 and some change per box for ball ammo - a steal!

I vote +1 for the Mini-14 :thumbup:
 
I think you could look into an SKS. They should fit into your budget and are a quality weapon. Ammo is fairly cheap also.
 
My choice is the AK.

But since you already are familiar with lever rifle and want to look Cop-Friendly, a Marlin 1894 in .44mag is the way to go.

Makes you look 100% American, like "The Duke" not a terrorist. The .44 is way easy to reload and can be shot with .44spl's for practice or defense OR loaded up .44mags to take down a grizzly. At SASS competitions they fire almost as fast as an AR can pull the trigger so no slouch in the Fire Power debate. It just doesn't load from magazines. But some use tube-loaders really fast ~;-)

BTW- with factory 44mag loads I can hit 1' square steel at 200 yards all day with mine.
 
the important question to me is what do you mean by defensive rifle?
in house/CQB defense, or holding off invaders at 200 yards range?

I see nothing wrong with using a lever gun as a defensive rifle, especially a carbine chambered in .357, .44mag, or .45LC.
Hi-point carbines get good reviews - ugly, but low cost and easy to use in confined spaces.
Beretta CX4 carbines come in 9mm & .45ACP - not sure about .40S&W, can be had new in the $550 range.

new ruger mini's are running close to $700 these days. but come in 6.8 rem in addition to .223.
mil surp CETME (I know it's pretty close to being an EBR) are back down to
$600 - precursor to the HK-91/G3 in .308.
SKS rifles are still under $400 - and are great shooters, but only have a 10 round fixed mag. Wood stock, however, and ballistics similar to 30-30. (shoots same cheap ammo as the AK clones & Saiga's)
Saiga comes in 7.62x39, 223, and 308.
AK prices are coming down, but no matter what you do it'll still look like an AK.
Stag arms makes a left handed AR - not sure what all calibers, but price will be at least be twice your stated.
 
I should have specified that I'm really looking in the direction of a semi-auto with detachable, reasonably high-cap mags. A modern battle rifle if you will.

I realize that a lever or pump action rifle would be good in a vast majority of cases but I really want to step up to the modern capability level of the defensive rifle.

I plan to, at some point in the near future, take a few training courses in the three gun battery. Rifle, pistol and shotgun and the courses I'm looking at require high cap semi autos.

Willieboy, I might just take you up on that. We really do need to get together at some point. I most likely drive past your house several times a day while working.:eek:
 
You could pick up a Romanian AK for that price, ammo is decently cheap too. (kinda fits in the "black rifle" category though)

I would stick with a good lever gun. short, fast, reliable, cant beat that! Marlin 336Cs can be found for $400 and less (new) and even cheaper used. You could also get a lever gun that is the same caliber as your revolver and get even more for your money. .30-30 ammo isnt that expensive either.

Shoot its what they used back in the day for personal protection!

Mini 14s are nice, and the .223 is a capable round, but I have doubts about their long range accuracy. But if you're talking defense, and generally will be usinf it in 100yd or less range it would be perfect.
 
shotgunner11 said:
I should have specified that I'm really looking in the direction of a semi-auto with detachable, reasonably high-cap mags. A modern battle rifle if you will.

I realize that a lever or pump action rifle would be good in a vast majority of cases but I really want to step up to the modern capability level of the defensive rifle.

I plan to, at some point in the near future, take a few training courses in the three gun battery. Rifle, pistol and shotgun and the courses I'm looking at require high cap semi autos.

Willieboy, I might just take you up on that. We really do need to get together at some point. I most likely drive past your house several times a day while working.:eek:
Click to expand...

the only one i can think of that meets your criteria and price point is the m1carbine.....can still be had for around 500
 
shotgunner11 said:
I should have specified that I'm really looking in the direction of a semi-auto with detachable, reasonably high-cap mags. A modern battle rifle if you will.
Click to expand...

Unless you want to spend close to $800 or much more, you want the Saiga. It's a time tested battle rifle. Arguable the best the world has ever seen. Enough said.
 
if you're participating in 3 gun competition, the .223 will let you score higher due to the lower recoil.
the current (since 2006) mini's come with a 1:9 twist rate, so they're more accurate than the older rifles in general and don't seem to have the problems with "spaghetti barrel" that a lot of the older ones had. (my old one had a tendency to "Pattern" rather than "group" after about 20 rounds)

while I prefer the .308 round in general, for 3 gun competition purposes the 7.62x39 or .223 will likely work better for you.
 
Since you mentioned "Defensive Rifle" I take it you are not going hunting with it? You are looking for something inexpensive, easy to handle and ammo prices that won't break the bank.

At the cost of possibly being laughed out of this thread I am going to suggest a rifle that the first time I saw one I laughed myself!

Back in 1999 my seriously redneck uncle thought Y2K was going to be the end of civilization. He started planning how he was going to survive and ended up with two Hi-Point 995 9mm Carbine rifles. When I saw them a few years after the scare my first thought was "What a POS".

We went out in the back 40 to shoot them and after that little session I went and bought one myself. They are inexpensive (under $200 I believe), they are pretty damn accurate, and 9mm ammo is not through the roof price wise. The rifle is short so it is easy to manuver, you can get ghost ring sites or a red dot scope so quick point and shoot aiming is easy. My wife and both my daughters can shoot the rifle with no problems. It's clip fed semi-auto so you can get a lot of rounds off in a hurry if need be.

The bad, it's black and looks cheap/strange and people don't think much of Hi-Points.

The good, mine has NEVER jammed or misfired and it has had around 1000 rounds through it. We keep it by the bed for emergencies.

Here is a picture of one in Camo...
 
My vote is a 5.45x39 AK. Prices are coming down, mags and cheap and available again, and ammo is as cheap as you will find for a capable fighting gun.

7.62 is getting cheaper as well, and those guns/mags are also easily available. Just depends on your need. Personally, I use 5.45 guns the most.
 
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