Spyderco soon releasing a CBN bench stone

[HeavyHanded]

That may be, but I have yet to find a resin bond diamond stone that doesn't fit that description. Even the harder ones marketed as waterstones match that description. For finishing work they do a fine job, but for coarse to medium a vitreous stone loaded with diamond will be less fussy. I've even considered cutting my wheel into benchstones, but replacements have gotten very expensive if they can even be found - there'd be no going back.

 

[DeadboxHero]

Whether the wheels load up fast and/or grind slow has much more to do with the bond strength and grit level than the bond type.

Have you compared them or just from your reading?

Any pictures or articles?

 

[eKretz]

Have you compared them or just from your reading?

Any pictures or articles?

The discussion was regarding grinding wheels, and yes I have used them for over 20 years in machine shops. Diamond and CBN, resin, vitreous, and metal bonds.

Hones are no different other than the fact that bond strengths need to be different. They need to be the proper strength to hold onto the abrasive, and they too need to be properly dressed.

 

[DeadboxHero]

The discussion was regarding grinding wheels, and yes I have used them for over 20 years in machine shops. Diamond and CBN, resin, vitreous, and metal bonds.

Hones are no different other than the fact that bond strengths need to be different. They need to be the proper strength to hold onto the abrasive, and they too need to be properly dressed.

Right on, I haven't worked in a machine shop for 20 years. Thanks for sharing.

So what you're saying is from your experience with grinding wheels is that hones are no different in loading faster or grinding slower
As long as the bond strength and grit size is the same?

For example, if we had a diamond resin stone and a vitrified, are you saying that the resin stone If the bonding is harder and grit size is coarser it will cut faster and load less than a vitrified bond?

 

[Slim7]

Right on, I haven't worked in a machine shop for 20 years. Thanks for sharing.

So what you're saying is from your experience with grinding wheels is that hones are no different in loading faster or grinding slower
As long as the bond strength and grit size is the same?

For example, if we had a diamond resin stone and a vitrified, are you saying that the resin stone If the bonding is harder and grit size is coarser it will cut faster and load less than a vitrified bond?

Hey Shawn,

Hope you don't mind if I ask, but how has your Spyderco cbn bench stone held up? I sure hope they are more durable than the new DMT plates..

 

[DeadboxHero]

Hey Shawn,

Hope you don't mind if I ask, but how has your Spyderco cbn bench stone held up? I sure hope they are more durable than the new DMT plates..

I never really wanted to say anything because I've never been a fan of DMT and I've made that clear on other social media platforms. So I thought it would be more interesting to wait for other reviewers to give their opinions and experiences rather than my bias.

For me, one of the many reasons I dislike the DMT is because it is electroplated onto a film embryo that's then adhered to a plate. After some hard use and abuse I had the film start to bubble up and tear off. I was under the impression that they were adhered to the plate itself.

The Spyderco Stone already has a superior construction with the cBN electroplated to a carbon steel plate which is then adhered to another plate rather than a delicate film on a plate.

At the end of the day, tons of people are using DMTs and not having any problems but if you ride them hard and put them away wet in my experience I had some issues with that. So, take it with a grain of salt.

Seriously though, the Spyderco plate is a really good deal.

-two grits for under $100
-better construction
-more expensive cBN

Great entry level stone for guys that need to add a coarser stone to the line up.

cBN plate vs Diamond plate?


While I can regurgitate literature and facts about the differences between cBN and Diamond, in my experience there is not enough of a difference to show up anecdotally in this electroplated format. Perhaps something can be seen with more controlled testing but if it's not standing out and being seen anecdotally than the difference isn't that big anyways so not concerned.

Don't get me wrong, its nice to try something different and explore but it's still a plate, keep in mind, cBN is more expensive than Diamond so it's unique to see it on a plate.



It's still going to have the inherent disadvantages and advantages of any other electroplated sharpening "stone"

Things are a little different now in 2021, there are now more options for diamond and cBN stones then have ever been available before with some working more like regular ceramic Waterstones in some cases.

The days of sharpening super steels and being stuck with the coarse, rough finish of diamond or the smooth, over burnished edge of a ceramic stone are over.

 

[eKretz]

Right on, I haven't worked in a machine shop for 20 years. Thanks for sharing.

So what you're saying is from your experience with grinding wheels is that hones are no different in loading faster or grinding slower
As long as the bond strength and grit size is the same?

For example, if we had a diamond resin stone and a vitrified, are you saying that the resin stone If the bonding is harder and grit size is coarser it will cut faster and load less than a vitrified bond?

In a general way. There can still be slight variances in loading based on the open spaces or lack thereof in the bond. Cutting speed is of course also affected by loading. What I really meant was that the same factors that affect grinding wheels and the grinding process are also applicable to hand honing and the implements used for that process.

What might be interesting is if some hones of both bond types were developed with a bit more porosity in the bond structure. This is done with grinding wheels to help keep them grinding cooler. It can also help in preventing loading since there's more space for the grit and swarf to go before it interferes with the cutting process. A drawback though is that sometimes these are more difficult to clean since those spaces can tend to trap the particles also.

That's starting to get more into the realm of R&D though.

 

[HeavyHanded]

In a general way. There can still be slight variances in loading based on the open spaces or lack thereof in the bond. Cutting speed is of course also affected by loading. What I really meant was that the same factors that affect grinding wheels and the grinding process are also applicable to hand honing and the implements used for that process.

What might be interesting is if some hones of both bond types were developed with a bit more porosity in the bond structure. This is done with grinding wheels to help keep them grinding cooler. It can also help in preventing loading since there's more space for the grit and swarf to go before it interferes with the cutting process. A drawback though is that sometimes these are more difficult to clean since those spaces can tend to trap the particles also.

My experience working with resin jointer stones is that materials in the resin act as coolant more than the physical structure. The surface on these tends to be more uniform - fewer abrasives stand proud as the stone wears down. This leads to a more uniform grind pattern, and a finer finish than the rated grit size.

But, this lack of open space and the material itself lead to a tendency for loading, a tendency that the manual hones exhibit as well. If they could be made with inclusion of oil or water soluble powder that vacates in use, it could possibly improve loading and cut speed.

My experience using these and regular vitreous wheels as bench stones demonstrates some serious shortcomings compared to stones made specifically for hand use, glazing and loading primarily.

Some do work well enough in a narrow capacity. I have a diamond/resin 10micron jointering stone that works great for finish work on high carbide steels. It too loads if used without water and is very slow compared to a resin waterstone, but makes a much finer finish than expected for the grit size.

 

[eKretz]

My experience working with resin jointer stones is that materials in the resin act as coolant more than the physical structure. The surface on these tends to be more uniform - fewer abrasives stand proud as the stone wears down. This leads to a more uniform grind pattern, and a finer finish than the rated grit size.

But, this lack of open space and the material itself lead to a tendency for loading, a tendency that the manual hones exhibit as well. If they could be made with inclusion of oil or water soluble powder that vacates in use, it could possibly improve loading and cut speed.

My experience using these and regular vitreous wheels as bench stones demonstrates some serious shortcomings compared to stones made specifically for hand use, glazing and loading primarily.

Some do work well enough in a narrow capacity. I have a diamond/resin 10micron jointering stone that works great for finish work on high carbide steels. It too loads if used without water and is very slow compared to a resin waterstone, but makes a much finer finish than expected for the grit size.

Yes it's important to regularly true and dress resin bond wheels. This should be done very often; many, many people don't do it often enough. Not properly dressing the wheel results in exactly the circumstances you describe. (Cutting finer than rated, glazing, loading).

The best way I've found to dress a resin bond wheel is: after truing the wheel take a small hand hone about the same grit as the wheel and soak it in coolant for a bit (I just leave mine sitting in coolant permanently). I then run the wheel slowly (variable speed) and press the stone into the wheel gently so it makes full contact across the wheel and let a paste form. A few seconds of this repeated a few times is enough to remove the right amount of binder without removing any abrasive particles so that the adhesive particles are left standing proud of the binder but not so exposed that they're too easily removed.

You also need to consider the correct abrasive concentration and bond hardness. Be sure you have what you need to match the job at hand or you will either be needlessly wasting a lot of wheel or having all sorts of problems with glazing/loading and burning.

Your experience with attempting to use grinding wheels to hand hone and finding that you get glazing and loading is no surprise. The bond strength in a wheel is quite a lot higher than what would be desired for a hand hone. In grinding this also creates a lot of extra heat, which is generally very undesirable in a resin bond and, really, any precision grinding process.

If you think resin bond is a pain you ought to try metal bond. Dressing those is a pain in the butt.

 

[Slim7]

I never really wanted to say anything because I've never been a fan of DMT and I've made that clear on other social media platforms. So I thought it would be more interesting to wait for other reviewers to give their opinions and experiences rather than my bias.

For me, one of the many reasons I dislike the DMT is because it is electroplated onto a film embryo that's then adhered to a plate. After some hard use and abuse I had the film start to bubble up and tear off. I was under the impression that they were adhered to the plate itself.

The Spyderco Stone already has a superior construction with the cBN electroplated to a carbon steel plate which is then adhered to another plate rather than a delicate film on a plate.

At the end of the day, tons of people are using DMTs and not having any problems but if you ride them hard and put them away wet in my experience I had some issues with that. So, take it with a grain of salt.

Seriously though, the Spyderco plate is a really good deal.

-two grits for under $100
-better construction
-more expensive cBN

Great entry level stone for guys that need to add a coarser stone to the line up.

cBN plate vs Diamond plate?


While I can regurgitate literature and facts about the differences between cBN and Diamond, in my experience there is not enough of a difference to show up anecdotally in this electroplated format. Perhaps something can be seen with more controlled testing but if it's not standing out and being seen anecdotally than the difference isn't that big anyways so not concerned.

Don't get me wrong, its nice to try something different and explore but it's still a plate, keep in mind, cBN is more expensive than Diamond so it's unique to see it on a plate.



It's still going to have the inherent disadvantages and advantages of any other electroplated sharpening "stone"

Things are a little different now in 2021, there are now more options for diamond and cBN stones then have ever been available before with some working more like regular ceramic Waterstones in some cases.

The days of sharpening super steels and being stuck with the coarse, rough finish of diamond or the smooth, over burnished edge of a ceramic stone are over.

I agree about the Dmt plates.
I didn't know they used a film with diamonds attached to the plate.

Yeah under a bucks is a good deal on the Spyderco cbn bench stone for two grits. So the cbn particles are on a thinner plate then that plate is adhered the thicker bodied plate?

They are rated JIS, right?
If so that would be roughly one side ANSI 250 and the other 500 grit?

Thanks again,

Mike