Supersteels. Do we really need 'em?

I honestly buy into some of the super steel hype, but in the real world, I've never really noticed much of a difference. They key with any knife is keeping it sharp. Don't wait till its dull before you sharpen it.

As others pointed out though, with a good sharpening system, even super steels are easy to bring back. They can be damn near impossible if you are using something like a Sharpmaker however.
 
extrastout said:
Also if....when the zombie apocalypse/a nuclear war comes and you bug out with your supersteel blade. You will have to search around for diamond stones or carry your wicked edge while on the run. Also no one will care about how cool your steel is during these situations.....which kinda defeats the purpose.....This is a major problem!
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Something that will never happen, namely the Zombie apocolype, is a major problem? ;)

Just bring a little diamond crock stick with you.
 
FortyTwoBlades said:
People very much get hung up on edge retention to the expense of overlooking other "performance factors" like ease of sharpening.
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"Overlooking" might be a bit of a stretch in many cases. I would say that most of us knife knuts (or at least us alloy junkies ;):D ) are acutely aware of the tradeoffs that occur feom one gain against another and the losses that coincide with the tweaking of the "stats".

Often times, the folks that are buying Very highly alloyed steels, Ultra high hardness, or high carbide "super steels" are doing so with the expressed knowledge that they are trading toughness and ease of edge maintenance for lack of immediacy for maintenance and a knife that is intended as a slicer for abrasive but less shock offering media (cardboard, food grade plastics, cryovac sheeting, and banding materials for example).

I have a 52100 blade at 64hrc, W2 at 64hrc, CPM REX76 at 63hrc, and 4V at 62ish hrc. Due to the hardnesses ran, all aside from the 4V suffer in toughness and speed of sharpening (not ease!) in favor of edge retention. I own diamond stones and though they may take a little longer when dulled, they are not "hard" to sharpen, just a little slower. But once they are at a level that I am happy with, they are easy to keep there.
 
Supersteels. Do we really need 'em?
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Yes.

The longer answer =
M4, Zdp189, XHP yes
S90V, S35vn no
Vanax75 dunno; doing OK without it.

At work I cut some dirty, abrasive and edge warping stuff. Super steel alloys, good and hard, MAKE A VERY NOTICEABLE DIFF.

Pendleton Hunter : Two and a half thumbs up (as long as it is ground half as thick at the spine and MADE FROM 3V . As mine is. I call her G L O R I A (it's a long story).

don't want to look at supersteels never again.
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GREAT ! More chance of me getting an exclusive before they all sell out.

steels which are pain to maintain
I have what it takes to use / sharpen. No probs.

with heartattackgivin' msrp,
I hadn't noticed and I am low income.

and many of us so called"knife guys" can't even resharpen em properly?
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Speak for yourself. Just takes buying the right stones etc. Not that big a deal really. That and learning how from the people here. I find that a true pleasure. Though the dope slaps they administered to me may not have been all that pleasant for them.

In closing I will say that the last two knives I bought, in last month and this, were . . . brace yourself . . . one Case CV (pretty tame steel) and one Japanese White Paper steel (very hard but super easy to sharpen) so I'm WITH YOU there . . . (both can't really take what I have to dish out at work for long but I LOVE THEM).

NOT GIVING UP MY M4 or 3V etc.
Nope, nope, nope . . . aint gonna happen.
 
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NJBillK said:
I have a 52100 blade at 64hrc, W2 at 64hrc, CPM REX76 at 63hrc, and 4V at 62ish hrc. Due to the hardnesses ran, all aside from the 4V suffer in toughness and speed of sharpening (not ease!) in favor of edge retention. I own diamond stones and though they may take a little longer when dulled, they are not "hard" to sharpen, just a little slower. But once they are at a level that I am happy with, they are easy to keep there.
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I have to agree here, "speed of sharpening" would be a much better word to explain what I had in mind :) Real and serious troubles with sharpening I had probably with only one steel. CTS XHP from Cold Steel. It was probably overheated during sharpening in factory on some kind of belt sharpener and cutting edge was rolling and burr was almost impossible to remove. When done, the blade was dulling faster than 420hc from buck. But after 2-3 sharpening sessions and reprofiling the factory edge all of these problems were gone. The blade started to hold an edge as good as any s30v knife I got or maybe even a little bit longer. But I wasn't very happy that I had to remove so many of "bad steel" from it to get to the quality material. Though same problems but not so annoying and noticeable I had once with spyderco s30v in Paramilitary II too.
 
I'm all about trying new steels that are labeled "super". Some are great. Some I'm less than thrilled with. But I really like improved edge retention and improved corrosion resistance.

Current faves include : 204P , M390 , S90V and I still like S30V as well as S35VN.
 
Lapedog said:
Something that will never happen, namely the Zombie apocolype, is a major problem? ;)

Just bring a little diamond crock stick with you.
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ummm....ya o_O

especially since you can't sharpen your super steel knife once you have to suddenly leave your house, then most likely leave your diamond stones/sharpening system behind or lose it. Cant field sharpen super steels

But i'm sure a serious, no bull guy like yourself will keep diamond stones in your back pocket at all times....so you will have no problem

Now calm down have a cold one and don't take life or sarcasm (not including nuclear war) so seriously....;)
 
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NJBillK said:
"Overlooking" might be a bit of a stretch in many cases. I would say that most of us knife knuts (or at least us alloy junkies ;):D ) are acutely aware of the tradeoffs that occur feom one gain against another and the losses that coincide with the tweaking of the "stats".
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It all depends on context. :)

There are, broadly speaking, two kinds of so-called "alloy junkies"--the ones with the experience to judge the appropriate contexts for super steels who find solid justification for carrying knives made from them, and the ones that are fairly new to the knife world and buy into the hype without the experience to back up those judgments. The latter category generally fails to take other performance factors into account because they simply don't understand the value of those qualities yet because they've only just set off on their adventure of learning about what makes knives tick.

Basic steels work fine for most contexts and can even be advantageous in rough-use scenarios. High-carbide steels also have their place, but as you said it's important to consider the balance of performance factors a given knife in a given steel will be providing. Arguably most knives on the production market, and even many in the custom world, do not take full advantage of super steels when it comes to designing their blade geometry. Failing to do so severely dampens any benefits one might see from the use of the high-end material. Personally, if I were cutting a lot of abrasive material on a routine basis, I'd certainly consider choosing something in a high-carbide steel. However, I find that for my purposes the gains are very small and can actually be negative. And when I do need to cut something like glass-reinforced strapping tape that blunts the basic steel in my knife, two swipes on a pocket stone and it's fine again.

On the other hand, there are other "super steels" out there that aren't about carbides at all and focus on extremely high toughness or corrosion resistance. Kind of depends on what you need the tool to do, and so using S7 in a peanut-pattern slipjoint wouldn't make much sense, just like making a machete out of S110V wouldn't make much sense.

Horses for courses. Some courses are good for pretty average horses.
 
Wowbagger said:
Speak for yourself. Just takes buying the right stones etc. Not that big a deal really. That and learning how from the people here. I find that a true pleasure. Though the dope slaps they administered to me may not have been all that pleasant for them.
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And number of threads titled "can't resharpen x knife for shit", "what did I wrong?", "I bought knife made of x, now after months of repeatedly sweeps I'm mentally Ill "chipped my blade badly while cutting butter" confirms it? :p
I'll say this once again. Phew... I have right stones, enough experience, I do know how to sharpen such steels, I did it for many years, but I don't wanna no more... To simply sum my point of view up :

Triumph of form over content

...at least for edc tasks. I do understand that in some specific circumstances ultra high wear resistant blades are necessary. However for me the are not.
 
I will say that I agree with your post, but for one point of contention. New guys may be interested in alloys, and want the latest and greatest, but I do not consider them "alloy junkies", just over enthusiastic. Sort of an eyes bigger than their stomach type of thing.

Once they get to the point where they are knowledgeable enough to buy a knife specifically for an alloy, or target purchase based upon alloy, then they are there.
----
Below is an example of an alloy junkies mindset. (Yes, I have done this, except I have owned them one after another, not at the same time.)
Have a Manix 2 in 154cm? Well, I need one in cruwear, s30v and Maxamet to see how they stack up in a comparable platform.
FortyTwoBlades said:
Horses for courses. Some courses are good for pretty average horses.
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Thats why you bet the Jockey, not the horse. A good Jockey won't ride a bad horse, and often won't even want to ride one that doesn't have a good shot.

Related to knives, know your medium. Near any knife can be a "good knife" it just depends on the requirements. Most butter knives are Very dull, but they are still perfectly functional knives in their realm of use.

The 52100 and W2 knives I mentioned are Bluntcut Metalworks and have a BTE thickness of around .010-.015. The 4V is a CPK and though it is little thick (18°dps and around .025 BTE) it is one of my tougher EDC fixed blades.

That is until my Busse Park Ranger lands in SR101 for edge retention (basically a modified 52100 with a proprietary HT protocol). I don't see the need for INFI in that small of a blade. Though I do understand that my other knives will hold an edge longer, this will be for hiking/fishing/camping/yard work type of carry, where the added toughness would be an asset.
 
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extrastout said:
ummm....ya o_O

especially since you can't sharpen your super steel knife once you have to suddenly leave your house, then most likely leave your diamond stones/sharpening system behind or lose it. Cant field sharpen super steels

But i'm sure a serious, no bull guy like yourself will keep diamond stones in your back pocket at all times....so you will have no problem

Now calm down have a cold one and don't take life or sarcasm (not including nuclear war) so seriously....;)
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Umm you seem to be the one taking my comment to seriously if you think anyone is any state that requires calming.

I assume if I am leaving the house during a zombie apoc. I would bring a backpack. Perfect for storing a diamond crock stick. (Which come as small as just like 5 inches). You really going to venture into the zombie wasteland with just whats in your pockets?
 
I love lower end steels for when they chip or dent they're really easy to sharpen out.
I love higher end steels for not needing sharpening that often.
I hate lower end steels for needing a sharpening pretty frequently.
I hate higher end steels for sharpening out chips or dents.
 
Lapedog said:
Umm you seem to be the one taking my comment to seriously if you think anyone is any state that requires calming.

I assume if I am leaving the house during a zombie apoc. I would bring a backpack. Perfect for storing a diamond crock stick. (Which come as small as just like 5 inches). You really going to venture into the zombie wasteland with just whats in your pockets?
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:rolleyes:........since you now seem to be taking the zombie apoc. and my sarcasm very seriously.....which is good. Think of a situation where you are at work and sh$$$ hits the fan, buuuut.....Im guessing you have a bug out bag in your car...you seem to not mess around. I am pretty sure Nuclear and Zombie stuff doesn't conveniently go down when you are at home. I think you do spend a lot of time at home though....you will be fine:cool: Do you need a bottle opener for that beer :thumbsup:
 
extrastout said:
:rolleyes:........since you now seem to be taking the zombie apoc. and my sarcasm very seriously.....which is good. Think of a situation where you are at work and sh$$$ hits the fan, buuuut.....Im guessing you have a bug out bag in your car...you seem to not mess around. I am pretty sure Nuclear and Zombie stuff doesn't conveniently go down when you are at home. I think you do spend a lot of time at home though....you will be fine:cool: Do you need a bottle opener for that beer :thumbsup:
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I actually carry a DMT Diafold Extra Fine/EEF in my pocket daily. Once I get around to replacing my Fine/EF, that will go back into the pocket.

Light, slim, and Very useful. After I spend my morning breaking down boxes and pallets, I cut meat. So the Diafold works well for touching up the soft stainless knives offered at work (Dexter Russell and similar), much better than the steel for really reworking a banged up edge.
 
extrastout said:
ummm....ya o_O

especially since you can't sharpen your super steel knife once you have to suddenly leave your house, then most likely leave your diamond stones/sharpening system behind or lose it. Cant field sharpen super steels

But i'm sure a serious, no bull guy like yourself will keep diamond stones in your back pocket at all times....so you will have no problem

Now calm down have a cold one and don't take life or sarcasm (not including nuclear war) so seriously....;)
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I carry a set of DMT Diasharp Cards in my pocket pretty much all the time. Checkmate. ;)
 
I don't carry around a sharpening stone (DMT or the like). If I'm in a situation of high knife use, I'll take a second knife along with me. But I always that two or three knives in my vehicle if the need arises in addition to what's in my pocket.

On the steel issue, I am not steel junkie. I try some of the super steels. But honestly of the higher end steels for my day to day use, I'm pretty comfortable with CPM154 or even 1095 or the steels used in my Vic SAK. I don't mind sharpening knives and sometimes it's fun. But if for some reason I am not successful relatively quickly at getting a good edge, it can be frustrating. I like to freehand sharpening.
 
NJBillK said:
I actually carry a DMT Diafold Extra Fine/EEF in my pocket daily. Once I get around to replacing my Fine/EF, that will go back into the pocket.

Light, slim, and Very useful. After I spend my morning breaking down boxes and pallets, I cut meat. So the Diafold works well for touching up the soft stainless knives offered at work (Dexter Russell and similar), much better than the steel for really reworking a banged up edge.
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never doubted you for a second
 
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