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who are you
Supersteels. Do we really need 'em?
- Thread starter DukeNukem1977
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Very concise reasoning, thank you. I personally find the actual use of a knife to be far more important and blade steel to be secondary at best. But then again, if I buy a knife from a reputable knife company (insert all name brand companies here), blade steel is just a matter of semantics and I can be assured that it will be just fine. Not to mention, sharpening Tru-sharp, AUS 8, 420HC, 8cr13mov, et al by hand, is a lot easier than a far harder (expensive) steel, but then that's just me.
Supersteels. Do we really need 'em?
To answer DukeNukem1977's question, what does need or necessity have to do with anything. Do we as knife knuts go back to 1095 & 420HC for all our knives. Or worse yet Case's horrible, and to soft CV.
I understand & enjoy debating the merits of the so called super steels but why debate if they are necessary.
Of course they are not necessary but they are nice to have and lots of people actually make good use of Super Steel.
Should knife steel have stopped evolving back in the days of 420HC and 1095.
Should knife steel have stopped evolving beyond the mid grade steels, 154CM, D2 etc. After all they were super steels once upon a time.
Instead of debating whether the so called super steels are necessary, we as knife knuts we should be happy there is a choice. When I started carrying knives in the late 70's there was very little choice, CV, 420HC, 440A and 1095. Didn't 1095 use to be a super steel.
Let's be honest here all steel is easy to sharpen if you have the skill and or equipment for it. How far you want to take your sharpening skills or how much equipment you want to buy is up to the user.
Sorry Medford fans. Look at Medford there is not a single knife in their whole catalog that could cut it's way out of a wet paper bag. Regardless of what steel is used or how much they charge for it. Horrible blade geometries at best.
How about the Cold Steel Lucky. Why does a 3.25 inch knife need a saber grind. Did Cold Steel think people were going to use it to pry open car doors.
If I'm looking at a knife I look at the whole knife, steel, geometry and ergonomics and weight. Geometry determines how well a knife cuts. Steel determines how long a blade cuts. Ergonomics determines how comfortable it is to use. Weight determines if I'll even carry it.
Steel is only part of a knife.
Why don't we debate why so many knife companies pay so little attention to blade geometry.
I would like to see more discussion about blade geometry and the merits of a knifes steel for the intended use or the users skill level.
To answer DukeNukem1977's question, what does need or necessity have to do with anything. Do we as knife knuts go back to 1095 & 420HC for all our knives. Or worse yet Case's horrible, and to soft CV.
I understand & enjoy debating the merits of the so called super steels but why debate if they are necessary.
Of course they are not necessary but they are nice to have and lots of people actually make good use of Super Steel.
Should knife steel have stopped evolving back in the days of 420HC and 1095.
Should knife steel have stopped evolving beyond the mid grade steels, 154CM, D2 etc. After all they were super steels once upon a time.
Instead of debating whether the so called super steels are necessary, we as knife knuts we should be happy there is a choice. When I started carrying knives in the late 70's there was very little choice, CV, 420HC, 440A and 1095. Didn't 1095 use to be a super steel.
Let's be honest here all steel is easy to sharpen if you have the skill and or equipment for it. How far you want to take your sharpening skills or how much equipment you want to buy is up to the user.
Sorry Medford fans. Look at Medford there is not a single knife in their whole catalog that could cut it's way out of a wet paper bag. Regardless of what steel is used or how much they charge for it. Horrible blade geometries at best.
How about the Cold Steel Lucky. Why does a 3.25 inch knife need a saber grind. Did Cold Steel think people were going to use it to pry open car doors.
If I'm looking at a knife I look at the whole knife, steel, geometry and ergonomics and weight. Geometry determines how well a knife cuts. Steel determines how long a blade cuts. Ergonomics determines how comfortable it is to use. Weight determines if I'll even carry it.
Steel is only part of a knife.
Why don't we debate why so many knife companies pay so little attention to blade geometry.
I would like to see more discussion about blade geometry and the merits of a knifes steel for the intended use or the users skill level.
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Agreed...Me like the OP with experience with different steels and the latest and greatest. I have gone back to simpler steels, the value is now in the construction, heat treat and materials in the knife, not tied up in the blade steel. I can really appreciate ease of sharpening and touching up. In my reality I don't do cut tests on abrasive until my edge rolls. I just use the knife, appreciate it...then maybe have to touch it up at the end of a day of use (which is relaxing to me).
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I think we were discussing rather than debating.... Few things are truly necessary in terms of knives. I am happy that there are choices beyond CV, 420HC, 440A and 1095.
While I agree about some of their line having bad blade geometry I disagree with your statement about cutting ability. Maybe give a few models a try before dismissing them outright.
That being said, I like owning some of the newer steels but outside of corrosion resistance and ease of sharpening/edge retention I couldn’t tell you which is which without an identifying mark. Even with prolonged use I’d most likely be no closer to picking out types of steel. Now blade geometry, edge grind and handle comfort, that’s a much different story.
I find myself leaning more towards carbon steels like 1095, A2, 5160, L6 and so on these days. My favorite fixed blade steel being 3V but that’s due to peace of mind and some actual experience with Fehrman, Ambush Alpha, Strider and BRKT.
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I haven't read every single post here, but this is just my take on it.
Whether anybody "needs" super steels or not most likely depends on the user. Sure, people in the past used mainly 1095 or other carbon steels and did fine with them. But as improvements occur, why not take advantage of them if you choose? People used to travel cross-country in covered wagons and lit their homes with candles and lanterns.
I remember about 20 years ago, when ATS-34 was considered a "super steel". Now it's not even mentioned anymore. It was a Japanese version of 154CM, which many today view as a lower-end steel. Even further back, 440C was once a "super steel". Now some people think it is a joke. But truthfully, 440C, done right, is a very good steel for many users. As is any steel.
I personally love SAKs, and like the steel they use, even after all these years. I also like what many consider are low-to-mid-end steels, like VG-10. I do own one knife (a Spydie Military) in S110V, but I find myself preferring S35VN or even S30V over S110V. For myself, I like the idea that I KNOW I can sharpen S35VN, S30V, VG-10, H1, 440C, 154CM, 420HC, and the AUS steels. I get it; the better you are at sharpening, the less daunting the super steels are. I can sharpen fine, but I don't feel like investing hundreds of dollars in fancy sharpening setups, when there are plenty I can already maintain and sharpen. I don't want to feel the need to touch up a super-duper steel knife after every time I use it, to delay the inevitable day I need to worry about reprofiling the edge. In that case, what's the difference between that and regularly having to touch up a "lesser" blade?
And what are "super" steels today will probably be considered "low end" in the future, by future steel buffs. Already, there are those who consider, say, S35VN as a so-so level of steel. Hey, if there's ever a new steel that is all of these things in one package: affordable, extremely tough, has amazing corrosion resistance, has extremely good edge-taking and holding, and yet is easy to resharpen, I'll be there to try it out.
The problem with discussions about steels, or about modern vs. traditional, is that many knife people get into the mentality of "the other category ("lesser steels") sucks and is useless," or "the other category (modern steels) is completely unnecessary", when in actuality, there is room for all of them. Personal preferences and uses. Meaning if you prefer one or the other, just buy and use whatever you like and don't worry so much about others.
Jim
Whether anybody "needs" super steels or not most likely depends on the user. Sure, people in the past used mainly 1095 or other carbon steels and did fine with them. But as improvements occur, why not take advantage of them if you choose? People used to travel cross-country in covered wagons and lit their homes with candles and lanterns.
I remember about 20 years ago, when ATS-34 was considered a "super steel". Now it's not even mentioned anymore. It was a Japanese version of 154CM, which many today view as a lower-end steel. Even further back, 440C was once a "super steel". Now some people think it is a joke. But truthfully, 440C, done right, is a very good steel for many users. As is any steel.
I personally love SAKs, and like the steel they use, even after all these years. I also like what many consider are low-to-mid-end steels, like VG-10. I do own one knife (a Spydie Military) in S110V, but I find myself preferring S35VN or even S30V over S110V. For myself, I like the idea that I KNOW I can sharpen S35VN, S30V, VG-10, H1, 440C, 154CM, 420HC, and the AUS steels. I get it; the better you are at sharpening, the less daunting the super steels are. I can sharpen fine, but I don't feel like investing hundreds of dollars in fancy sharpening setups, when there are plenty I can already maintain and sharpen. I don't want to feel the need to touch up a super-duper steel knife after every time I use it, to delay the inevitable day I need to worry about reprofiling the edge. In that case, what's the difference between that and regularly having to touch up a "lesser" blade?
And what are "super" steels today will probably be considered "low end" in the future, by future steel buffs. Already, there are those who consider, say, S35VN as a so-so level of steel. Hey, if there's ever a new steel that is all of these things in one package: affordable, extremely tough, has amazing corrosion resistance, has extremely good edge-taking and holding, and yet is easy to resharpen, I'll be there to try it out.
The problem with discussions about steels, or about modern vs. traditional, is that many knife people get into the mentality of "the other category ("lesser steels") sucks and is useless," or "the other category (modern steels) is completely unnecessary", when in actuality, there is room for all of them. Personal preferences and uses. Meaning if you prefer one or the other, just buy and use whatever you like and don't worry so much about others.
Jim
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yup. my opinel is one of my best cutting knives. Dulls fairly quickly when cutting abrasive materials, but I can also get it shaving sharp from very dull in a few minutes with some sandpaper on my break at work. CPM M4? Not so much. But it will hold a working edge on abrasive materials much longer. But the opinel cuts better than my CPM M4 knife due to the thickness, or lack thereof, and edge geometry.
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Well, that's overstatement. Of course I'm not suggesting "return" to so basic steels like 420hc/aus8. But I wanted to point out that medium steels like 154cm/vg10 and anything that revolves around this quality point - is just enough for most tasks. I'm happy too, that I have the possiblity to choose from huge variety of steels, I'm just discussing with the general trend for having most exotic steel possible, when we're most of the time just don't need them.
Insipid Moniker
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Despite the fact that our preferences may differ, I think we're largely on the same page. For me, super steels aren't a necessity but more, to steal (steel?
) a term from gaming, a quality of life improvement. I cut loads of cardboard and resharpening in the middle of a task never fails to annoy me. I much prefer to sit down and sharpen while I'm relaxed and in a place to take pride in my handiwork rather than feel pressure to get an edge back on right now so I can finish the task at hand.
sharp_edge
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Ramen noodles and tap water have served this hungry man pretty well for the past few days, so do we really need beef steak and wine?
navman
Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
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I don't think we need a super steel knife blade, but I personally enjoy them, as they tend to bring another level to everyday extended cutting chores. I made two hunting/skinning knives for a friend who hunts in Spain and Africa, one in AEBL and one in CPM 10v. As you would expect the 10v blade outlasted the AEBL in the field in total number of hides skinned before needing to be resharpened.
However, the AEBL was able to take a keener, thinner edge and became his go to for more delicate work. Neither suffered any damage when encountering bone or dirt. Same report from the S110v blade I made for another guy, no significant damage and lasted longer than the Muella skinner he had been using.
So need...no...want...sure.
However, the AEBL was able to take a keener, thinner edge and became his go to for more delicate work. Neither suffered any damage when encountering bone or dirt. Same report from the S110v blade I made for another guy, no significant damage and lasted longer than the Muella skinner he had been using.
So need...no...want...sure.
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I wonder what we wil call the new steels coming out over the next 5 years? Super Duper Steels!?
I prefer more balanced steels that are reasonable easy to sharpen but in the same breathe, I can say that I love 3v and M390. In all honesty, I could get by with A2 the rest of my life and be happy. That being said, I thinks it's great people are pushing the envelope in both steels and heat treats protocols that are available for the public to purchase. Without trying new things, there cannot be progress.
I prefer more balanced steels that are reasonable easy to sharpen but in the same breathe, I can say that I love 3v and M390. In all honesty, I could get by with A2 the rest of my life and be happy. That being said, I thinks it's great people are pushing the envelope in both steels and heat treats protocols that are available for the public to purchase. Without trying new things, there cannot be progress.
So much blah blah blah about this. I am not surprised.
Do you need your knife to hold an edge as long as possible and not need sharpening?... you need a super steel
Do you have the ability to sharpen your knife when it is needed?..... you do not need a super steel
Do you count on your knife to make money for you or to get though a job with the least amount of time and energy?..... you need a steel that will save you the most time. This could be a super steel or not. It depends on whether your use will destroy any type of edge before you finish a task or not. Pick your steel FOR THE TASK. I would not choose an axe made with S30V, just as I would not pick 1095 to clean fish.
Do we want more convenience? Sure we do. We would all like to own the best thing for the job. We are mostly lazy too. Do you value not having to sharpen your pocket knife for weeks, or do you value the time it takes to sharpen ANY knife when it gets dull?
Yes we need super steels, if you value the benefits of super steels. If you have a sharpening stone with you at all times then maybe 440A is good enough. If you live on a boat and count on your knife to be sharp just when you need it, after weeks of neglect, then you perhaps need LC200N.
The right tools or materials for the job. It is simple.
Do you need your knife to hold an edge as long as possible and not need sharpening?... you need a super steel
Do you have the ability to sharpen your knife when it is needed?..... you do not need a super steel
Do you count on your knife to make money for you or to get though a job with the least amount of time and energy?..... you need a steel that will save you the most time. This could be a super steel or not. It depends on whether your use will destroy any type of edge before you finish a task or not. Pick your steel FOR THE TASK. I would not choose an axe made with S30V, just as I would not pick 1095 to clean fish.
Do we want more convenience? Sure we do. We would all like to own the best thing for the job. We are mostly lazy too. Do you value not having to sharpen your pocket knife for weeks, or do you value the time it takes to sharpen ANY knife when it gets dull?
Yes we need super steels, if you value the benefits of super steels. If you have a sharpening stone with you at all times then maybe 440A is good enough. If you live on a boat and count on your knife to be sharp just when you need it, after weeks of neglect, then you perhaps need LC200N.
The right tools or materials for the job. It is simple.
afishhunter
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I've never owned anything above 440C.
(which I recently acquired) All my knives, be they folding or fixed blade, have been 440A, 420HC (Buck) 4116 Krupp (Cold Steel) 1095, or 1065.
Personally, I've never felt the need or desire for a "super steel".
My Buck 110 (420HC) or Schrade 7OT/6OT (440A) can skin and butcher 2 deer without needing resharpened. Hitting them with a strop afterwards brings them back to arm hair shaving sharpness.
I don't have any one hand opening "modern" folders. I don't need one hand opening, and I dislike the way picket clips dig into my hand when I'm using a kinfe so equipped.
I carry and use traditional folders, usually multi-blade traditionals. (Stockman, Barlow, Canoe, Sunfish, etc.)
Using them to cut, be it cardboard, paper, leather, foam, electrical insulation (or up to 10 gauge wire, for that matter) or whittlin' fire sticks or tent stakes, I've never felt "under knived" with the 440A, 1095/1065, or any of the other "low end" steels. (of course the fact that they all have a good heat treat - including the Rough Riders, may have something to do with that.)
I very rarely have to put any of my knives to a stone. Even after 50 plus cuts of up to 10 gauge multi-strand wire, all they need is stropped to bring them back to shaving sharp.
For my uses, I don't need a "super steel".
Yes, I am aware that 440C is (or was) considered a "super steel".
I also consider the ability to sharpen in the field (if necessary) to be of prime importance.
I don't need something I need diamond stones to sharpen. Best case, I might have a diamond stone in camp (if I owned a diamond stone) but I sure would not have one in my pocket. Worst case, all of my knives can be sharpened with a smooth river rock, and stropped on my belt, should the need arise.
I don't baton, but I've never, in 50 plus years chipped an edge. I've seen many posts here of people chipping the edge on their "super steel" knife from batoning, or worse, the blade breaks.
At any rate, I'll continue to "get by" with the old, proven, "obsolete" blade steels.
(which I recently acquired) All my knives, be they folding or fixed blade, have been 440A, 420HC (Buck) 4116 Krupp (Cold Steel) 1095, or 1065.
Personally, I've never felt the need or desire for a "super steel".
My Buck 110 (420HC) or Schrade 7OT/6OT (440A) can skin and butcher 2 deer without needing resharpened. Hitting them with a strop afterwards brings them back to arm hair shaving sharpness.
I don't have any one hand opening "modern" folders. I don't need one hand opening, and I dislike the way picket clips dig into my hand when I'm using a kinfe so equipped.
I carry and use traditional folders, usually multi-blade traditionals. (Stockman, Barlow, Canoe, Sunfish, etc.)
Using them to cut, be it cardboard, paper, leather, foam, electrical insulation (or up to 10 gauge wire, for that matter) or whittlin' fire sticks or tent stakes, I've never felt "under knived" with the 440A, 1095/1065, or any of the other "low end" steels. (of course the fact that they all have a good heat treat - including the Rough Riders, may have something to do with that.)
I very rarely have to put any of my knives to a stone. Even after 50 plus cuts of up to 10 gauge multi-strand wire, all they need is stropped to bring them back to shaving sharp.
For my uses, I don't need a "super steel".
Yes, I am aware that 440C is (or was) considered a "super steel".
I also consider the ability to sharpen in the field (if necessary) to be of prime importance.
I don't need something I need diamond stones to sharpen. Best case, I might have a diamond stone in camp (if I owned a diamond stone) but I sure would not have one in my pocket. Worst case, all of my knives can be sharpened with a smooth river rock, and stropped on my belt, should the need arise.
I don't baton, but I've never, in 50 plus years chipped an edge. I've seen many posts here of people chipping the edge on their "super steel" knife from batoning, or worse, the blade breaks.
At any rate, I'll continue to "get by" with the old, proven, "obsolete" blade steels.
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Hell no. But we need chicken.
On steels (blades), I like choices. I'm also pretty happy with the medium grade steels that were considered super steels not so long ago.
Hickory n steel
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This is how they seem to me.
As long as I can bring my edge back in 30 seconds on the bottom of a coffee cup I'm happy.
They don't need to stay sharp forever when it's so easy to touch them up without having to buy anything more than just the knife.
Needing to invest in costly sharpening equipment isn't for me.