The Hamon Thread

[PIndelicato]

The next step is using lemon juice to etch. I heat about 6 ounces in the microwave until it boils. I rub the lemon juice on the hardened steel, but keep the whole blade wet, as the edge between wet and dry will create a line. I use a leather dye dauber to rub the lemon juice on to the steel, or on a small blade, a q-tip. I etch until it looks like this:

Could you please clarify what you are saying here about rubbing the lemon juice on the hardened steel, but keeping the whole blade wet? I've read many times in the past people who seem to be selectively etching and/or polishing only parts of the blade at a time, but 1) I'm not sure I'm interpreting that correctly and 2) if so, how you would actually go about either of those operations since there is not a clear solid line delineating the different areas (and etchant is liquid and runs and doing anything part way to a finished blade has always resulted in me screwing up a hand rubbed finish.)

Thanks in advance!

 

[kuraki]

I've never seen anyone really etching only parts of the blade, and what Warren was talking about was not letting the lemon juice dry anywhere as it's being rubbed on as that can cause streaks in the oxides that need to be polished out, possibly where you didn't want any extra polishing to go on.

Stacy talks a lot about polishing different portions of the blade with different polishes and made a post about it in another thread I hope he transfers over here. I haven't done that with any of mine for the reasons you state.

As for ruining a hand rubbed blade, I've taken many to 1200 grit and started etching and polishing, and as long as you don't etch too hard too long in ferric chloride, there's really nothing you're doing with light etches and polishing compounds you can't undo relatively quickly with 800 grit paper. At least until you've really set an etch in. And a few times that's exactly what I've done. Quick 800, 1200, and try again with the etch to start from scratch.

 

[PIndelicato]

Thanks kuraki. As for screwing up a hand rubbed finish, I guess I'm speaking more about polishing than etching (although I have apparently over-etched and/or over-polished my most recent blade to the point where re-sanding doesn't seem to be able to fix it.)

It is mostly theoretical though, because I still don't really understand what folks are actually doing to have tried it. Also, I find it so difficult to get an even straight hand-rubbed finish that even the slightest misstep will foul, that I'd be afraid to try it without watching someone else do it first. Hope that makes sense...

 

[Willie71]

Could you please clarify what you are saying here about rubbing the lemon juice on the hardened steel, but keeping the whole blade wet? I've read many times in the past people who seem to be selectively etching and/or polishing only parts of the blade at a time, but 1) I'm not sure I'm interpreting that correctly and 2) if so, how you would actually go about either of those operations since there is not a clear solid line delineating the different areas (and etchant is liquid and runs and doing anything part way to a finished blade has always resulted in me screwing up a hand rubbed finish.)

Thanks in advance!

I wipe the whole blade in a wash of lemon juice, but rub it into the steel on the hardened part. When I tried to only etch a selective part of the blade, I got lin s along the edge of the etch. Stacy talks about using nail polish to seal parts of the blade. That would work too. The way I do it, I etch heavier where I rub more, but avoid the lines.

This is just what I do. It might or not be right for you.

 

[PIndelicato]

Thanks for the reply Willie. When rubbing only the hard areas, are you trying to follow the actual line or just more or less an approximation of the line?

 

[Willie71]

Thinner really? I would have thought the opposite. I'm running low on propane but might give one a retry tonight. I've been puttering around with sheaths and etching in the house since running the forge all day Monday and the temps dropping below zero Tuesday.

Thicker is more of a heat sink. It washes out the definition of where you put the clay. If you look at Will Morrison pics on his Facebook page, his clay is basically painted on.

1460 is ideal for Aldo's W2, but 1450-1430 might give you more activity in the blade. Great for a showpiece, but I don't use that for users.

I have a hitachi white blade where I changed my mind after claying it, and decided to go clayless. I scraped the clay off, but there was some residue left. I'll see if I have a pic. The hamon followed the residue perfectly.

 

[Willie71]

Thanks for the reply Willie. When rubbing only the hard areas, are you trying to follow the actual line or just more or less an approximation of the line?

An approximation.

 

[PIndelicato]

Thanks again sir!

 

[andrewh2011]

wow kuraki and willie you guys along with stacy are like the guardians of the shop talk sub forums you guys really go out of your way to help the new guys
keep up the good work! alright back to the point

The thickness of the application and the continuity of the application and the size/mass of the blade make almost as much difference as the pattern the clay is applied. I cannot for the life of me figure out how guys like Will Morrison are getting such fine little "crows feet." Whenever I try fine detailed application like that, I get nothing. I also have a hard time getting any activity on smaller blades. I've recently had two complete failures with small, thinner blades, one 1075 and one W2. They're just hard all the way through, like they quenched too fast even through the clay.

In your one example, a wavy edge, what I have found is that where the edge dips, if you taper the application of clay thickness with the dip, that's where you'll get more of the cloudy transition between the hard steel and soft steel.

But I also have a multitude of blades that absolutely did not follow the clay application whatsoever.

FWIW I have only used Satanite as my clay, and I quench everything in Parks 50.

Thats a good point about the thickness as to the crows feet i think using w2 vs the plain carbon steels is part of it.
about the 2 that wouldnt produce a hamon. ive been thinking about using steel filings mixed into my "clay" i read in on the crossed heart forge website (i cant remember his bladeforums username) he mixes his own "clay" and he lists steel filings as helping with thermal mass. this might solve that problem on thin blades.

Regarding patterns:

http://www.ksky.ne.jp/~sumie99/hamonpatterns.html

I'll look for some examples of pics I have of my clay application.

those are some great pictures it would be cool to see the clay application on those!

 

[Josh Rider]

Warren, this thread is great!

Kuraki, your hamon is looking bad ass. That's exactly what I'm trying to get when I go for one. What stock do you use mainly?

 

[kuraki]

Josh I've used 1075, 1095 and W2 to date and by far the W2 has been the most active.

 

[andrewh2011]

I decided i would try to contribute a little bit this is a write up of how i produced my first hamon. Unfortunately i dont have very many pics.
the steel is 1095
i didnt have any satinite or metal polising compound. so it was more of an experiment than anything

so first step i dont have any pics of.. So i got my knife sanded to 320 before heat treat (good practice even if your not going for a hamon).

I then coated the the spine of the blade with my "clay" i used porcelain slip as i have 5 or 6 jugs like this that will probably never be used and if it didnt work i could just re-heat treat the blade

i started to get worried there was no hamon in there as i started sanding i kept checking it in different light and couldnt see any thing as you can see in the next picture
clean 2000 no visible hamon (i took it to 2000 grit after a test etching to find out if there was anything there)

here it is at 600 grit when i finally gave in and test eched it to see if i should continue sanding

I dont have any pictures between the 2000 grit and the finished knife. So from here i go to text.

after i had gotten to a clean 2000 grit it was time to etch and polish. FIRST WASH ALL OILS OFF THE BLADE. Hot water and dish soap from hear either wear gloves or handle the knife with a paper towel. This is important because the oils from your skin will leave fingerprint shaped "streaks" (for lack of a better word) in the etch.

Then prepare your etchant. I used hot white vinegar with dishsoap mixed in. you will also want to prepare a neutralizing solution your etch will start to streak if you just pull the blade from the vinegar and start polishing.

Now you are prepared. heat your Vinegar solution but do get it to hot as you can boil off the acidity (so ive read not sure if this is true but you can also burn yourself and it dosnt help mush past a certain point) put your blade in for about a minute or 2 or until blade starts to darken pull it out and imidietly into your neutralizing solution. Now dry it and start to polish.

Heat is where my makeshift hamon kit kindof hit a wall i didnt have anything to polish with except toothpaste. It will get alot of the oxides off and does work to a point but it is not nearly as good as loose SiC or flitz.


here is the finished knife the hamon is a little more active than the photo implies but not much thanks to my sub-par polish
Maybe we should discuss Hamon Photography as well I would love to here what coop or calob royer have to say on the subject

Im not sure it belongs here with you guys's pro hamons and write ups but i thought another view on the subject might be good

 

[Willie71]

wow kuraki and willie you guys along with stacy are like the guardians of the shop talk sub forums you guys really go out of your way to help the new guys
keep up the good work! alright back to the point




Thats a good point about the thickness as to the crows feet i think using w2 vs the plain carbon steels is part of it.
about the 2 that wouldnt produce a hamon. ive been thinking about using steel filings mixed into my "clay" i read in on the crossed heart forge website (i cant remember his bladeforums username) he mixes his own "clay" and he lists steel filings as helping with thermal mass. this might solve that problem on thin blades.



those are some great pictures it would be cool to see the clay application on those!

Follow the links in the article. It's just a sludge of clay. Most of the activity comes from the responsive steel, geometry, temp, and quenchant. The clay pattern only comes into play when the rest is in the ballpark. I've done just a blob and gotten choji, and I've painted great detail to get just a basic line. It's a rabbit hole.


I want to remind everyone I'm no expert. I've got the basics, and can get a decent result. There are many guys like Stacy, Salem, Don, and many others who know a hell of a lot more than me about this.

 

[Willie71]

I decided i would try to contribute a little bit this is a write up of how i produced my first hamon. Unfortunately i dont have very many pics.
the steel is 1095
i didnt have any satinite or metal polising compound. so it was more of an experiment than anything

so first step i dont have any pics of.. So i got my knife sanded to 320 before heat treat (good practice even if your not going for a hamon).

I then coated the the spine of the blade with my "clay" i used porcelain slip as i have 5 or 6 jugs like this that will probably never be used and if it didnt work i could just re-heat treat the blade

i started to get worried there was no hamon in there as i started sanding i kept checking it in different light and couldnt see any thing as you can see in the next picture
clean 2000 no visible hamon (i took it to 2000 grit after a test etching to find out if there was anything there)

here it is at 600 grit when i finally gave in and test eched it to see if i should continue sanding

I dont have any pictures between the 2000 grit and the finished knife. So from here i go to text.

after i had gotten to a clean 2000 grit it was time to etch and polish. FIRST WASH ALL OILS OFF THE BLADE. Hot water and dish soap from hear either wear gloves or handle the knife with a paper towel. This is important because the oils from your skin will leave fingerprint shaped "streaks" (for lack of a better word) in the etch.

Then prepare your etchant. I used hot white vinegar with dishsoap mixed in. you will also want to prepare a neutralizing solution your etch will start to streak if you just pull the blade from the vinegar and start polishing.

Now you are prepared. heat your Vinegar solution but do get it to hot as you can boil off the acidity (so ive read not sure if this is true but you can also burn yourself and it dosnt help mush past a certain point) put your blade in for about a minute or 2 or until blade starts to darken pull it out and imidietly into your neutralizing solution. Now dry it and start to polish.

Heat is where my makeshift hamon kit kindof hit a wall i didnt have anything to polish with except toothpaste. It will get alot of the oxides off and does work to a point but it is not nearly as good as loose SiC or flitz.


here is the finished knife the hamon is a little more active than the photo implies but not much thanks to my sub-par polish
Maybe we should discuss Hamon Photography as well I would love to here what coop or calob royer have to say on the subject

Im not sure it belongs here with you guys's pro hamons and write ups but i thought another view on the subject might be good

Your post is good. None of us are pros. Thank you for showing what you did, and the result you got. :thumbup:

 

[kuraki]

I want to remind everyone I'm no expert. I've got the basics, and can get a decent result. There are many guys like Stacy, Salem, Don, and many others who know a hell of a lot more than me about this.

And I know less than him!

 

[BM(406)]

I like the black hamon, but here is a video of a non etched 2,000 grit edc. It's off my instagram so it loads kinda slow, but I like it enough to share lol
.[video]https://www.instagram.com/p/BM9Yvm0D3UP/[/video]
Here is a clay layout. I use Rutlands. The steel is 1095 and is at 220 grit at .04 thicknesss.

Here it is finished.

I finish grind a knife this size to .015 and hand sanded it to 800 grit.
Etched in 50/50 ferric/vinegar for about 45 seconds.
Then I use soft pieces of leather about 1" square and Old #7 made by turtle wax and I rub the $(%+[¢√ out of it and get off as many oxides as I possibly can.

 

[BM(406)]

Here is another example of the same profile, steel and thickness. I did one thing different; I interrupted the quench.

And here it is finished. Same type of finish, but much more activity after the interrupted quench.

Another black hamon. I know the purists will cuss and swear, but I don't care lol

 

[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

Here is the post from the tanto thread. I'll try and find some photos and other info this weekend, since it is likely I will be snowed in.:

Traditional togi is very slow and difficult. Using ha-zuya and ji-zuya is a skill that takes a lot of practice. It also is really rough on the fingertips .... what part of them you don't cut off while your fingers are flying back and forth along the ha.

I use a method blending shiagi-togi and a hybrid polish. I do the foundation steps (shitaji-togi) and etch the blade to get the best hamon activity and look. Instead of going to small finger stones I use 1" squares of high quality SC paper. 800 grit, 1200 grit and 2500 grit are good. I fold them twice to make 1/2" squares with a little thickness. I use these with a fingertip. I turn them over and fold the other way to use all four abrasive surfaces. When it slows down, I chuck it on the floor and grab the next square. In some cases, I use the paper along with a slurry of fine grit SC or AO powder (more or less like nagui). I go for a smooth bright finish on the hardened ha, and a frostier matte finish on the softer ji.

After the surfaces are done, I use powders and compounds as needed to get the right look.

When working right on the edge, I sometimes use a "finger stick". It is a 6" piece of soft wood that has a small leather pad on the end. It is held in the hand and becomes my "finger". Kevlar gloves are also a good idea sometimes. You have to be cautious when wearing them, as they can scratch polished surfaces.

A good trick for getting the ha and ji finished without ruining the hamon is to paint it with fingernail polish. Use a fine tip sable brush and carefully cover the hamon, clouds, and any ashi with the polish (or a fast drying lacquer). Let it dry well and do the shiagi-togi going right up to the paint. This keeps stray grit and oopsies from ruining a well developed hamon. When done, remove the protective paint with acetone or naptha and clean carefully. A tiny amount of touch-up may be needed in a few spots, but the blade is normally done at this point.

Places to NOT try to save money are the polishes, the cleaning supplies, and water. Use high quality paper towels and change them often. Cheap towels can cause scratches. Change the water often. A few drops of Dawn in the oke helps with surface tension. The polishes should be the better grades, not the bargain priced lapping and shop grades.

 

[kuraki]

For my benefit because I become lost: https://www.japaneseswordindex.com/terms/terms.htm

Ha- edge (hardened portion)
Ji- unhardened portion
Ashi- "legs" Streaks toward edge

 

[Willie71]

Here is another example of the same profile, steel and thickness. I did one thing different; I interrupted the quench.

And here it is finished. Same type of finish, but much more activity after the interrupted quench.

Another black hamon. I know the purists will cuss and swear, but I don't care lol

EDC, huh? A lot of dragons and orcs in your neck of the woods?