THE Hollow Handle Knife Thread

Here's my beloved Timberline - "1983 American Made Knife of the Year". The only hollow handle knife to ever win a Blade Magazine award, in any category, since they started the awards in 1982. :thumbup:


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TAH said:
Sam,

Tell us about your sawteeth. Do you offer more than one style? What type of sawteeth do you feel are the most effective and efficent for wood?
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Well, I'm not an expert, but I did do a lot of experimenting, and the sawteeth that I decided to go with are very similar in appearance to those on the Timberline knives, and others. They are not split, just regular sawteeth. I found the style that look like the saw on a Swiss army knife are very effective, but are not very attractive and tear up a sheath if you're not careful. I believe form should follow function, but the knife has to look good where possible, or people won't want to carry it. In my tests, the saw cut pretty well for what it is. When I get a blade fully finished, I will do a video and time it cutting some wood.

I think it's important to remember that, in my mind anyway, the saw is there for notching, and in instances where you want to save your main edge. I don't think it will ever serve you well if you want to saw down trees.

BladeScout said:
Making an interpretation of the classic Buckmaster sounds like a great idea. Cant wait to see it:thumbup:
Some knifemakers put together WIP threads/videoes (*hint, hint*):D
Dropping the sawteeth on the clip for a stronger cleaner design sounds great.
As for the clip, Im a fan of the longer clips, but to each his own.
Look forward to seeing the knife.
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I will try to get some pics as I go along, BladeScout. I too prefer slightly longer clips, but for strength I might shorten it up a bit. I will see.

JTC said:
Great thread, I love hollow handle knives! Here's a pic of my Bianchi nighthawk made by eye brand.

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A buddy of mine had one, and I was surprised at the feel of quality. It seemed like a very nice knife, and I say "seemed" only because I only held it, and never used it. His had a Bianchi sheath, and it was very well done, in my opinion.
 
klute said:
Sam I am partial to serrated clips [5160 is tuff steel], knurled handles, and stonewash.

Make it look a bit meaner? This *may* take away some function you are after but can add another dimension of function while you mix in some ARTISTIC SNARL ...these knives are all business but still there is an artistry about them just the same i think you agree?
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I agree with you, it looks meaner and cooler, and personally I like it a lot. The only catch is I am trying to balance the aesthetics with function. I want to do a Buckmaster style blade, with the serrated clip, but I am a little concerned that if the knife is being used for batonning or light prying, it may lead to premature failure in the clip area. I may just have to do a test blade and see.

But here are my thoughts on reworking the Buckmaster: Just about everybody that I've spoken with about the Buckmaster just LOVES the way the knife looks, and how solid it is. However, I have yet to find somebody, and I'm sure they're out there, who really enjoyed using the Buckmaster. Just like KDucky's Brother said on the first page, it's heavy, the balance is off, the handle is uncomfortable, the grind is too thick, and everybody says the saw doesn't work.

I am thinking about taking a 7 1/2" blade in a clip point bowie style blade, a choice of 5160 for the carbon steel or CPM 154 for stainless, putting a sawback on it that works (for those that want it), and doing a full flat grind on the blade. That's part of the reason a lot of sawbacks don't work: Unless you grind the blade all the way to the saw, like on a full flat grind, about half of the blade is the same thickness as the saw, which leads to binding. If the thickness drops right below the saw, you get a much more efficient saw. It's still not as good as an actual saw, but you've come closer to maximizing its' potential.

Then, adding my regular handle, either with or without micarta under the cord wrap, and topping it off with the MOA System for those that want it. Either a satin, or acid etched finish for a more subdued look to cap it off. I'd be interested in comments or questions on it, as I think it would be a cool package.
 
Sam Wilson said:
the sawteeth that I decided to go with are very similar in appearance to those on the Timberline knives, and others. They are not split, just regular sawteeth. I found the style that look like the saw on a Swiss army knife are very effective, but are not very attractive and tear up a sheath.
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I've always wanted to try the Parrish sawteeth. I read they are quite effective. I assume your sawteeth are canted like the Timberline and Lile sawteeth. Do they have to be hand filed individually?

I'd like to see your version of a BuckMaster. To me, that is still one of the best looking HH knives (production and handmade) ever made. It just has nice proportions and lines. :thumbup:
 
Yes, unfortunately I don't have a mill yet, so I have to cut them by hand at this point. It's not exactly fun, but it's not as bad as it sounds. They have a slight angle to them, so that once the cutting tooth is into the wood, the rest of the tooth is lower, and offers less resistance. I have heard the same thing about Parrish's sawteeth. I would love to see them in action. And I agree about the Buckmaster. I think quite a few people, whether they like HH knives or not, at least appreciate the aesthetics of the Buckmaster. I think it's very attractive. I would like to make a version that's inspired by it, but addresses some of the performance issues.
 
Sam Wilson said:
But here are my thoughts on reworking the Buckmaster: Just about everybody that I've spoken with about the Buckmaster just LOVES the way the knife looks, and how solid it is. However, I have yet to find somebody, and I'm sure they're out there, who really enjoyed using the Buckmaster. Just like KDucky's Brother said on the first page, it's heavy, the balance is off, the handle is uncomfortable, the grind is too thick, and everybody says the saw doesn't work.

I am thinking about taking a 7 1/2" blade in a clip point bowie style blade, a choice of 5160 for the carbon steel or CPM 154 for stainless, putting a sawback on it that works (for those that want it), and doing a full flat grind on the blade. That's part of the reason a lot of sawbacks don't work: Unless you grind the blade all the way to the saw, like on a full flat grind, about half of the blade is the same thickness as the saw, which leads to binding. If the thickness drops right below the saw, you get a much more efficient saw. .
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Bingo! That's definitely the trick - having the thickness drop right below the saw. That's why Lile's saw worked (flat grind) and Timberline's worked (high hollow grind). In 1986, I went to the Blade show in Knoxville and Bill Sanders was behind the Timberline booth sawing one 2x4 after another with their HH knife. Poor Bill was wearing out before the saw. This was at the height of the HH craze and Timberline was the only knife maker demonstrating the effectiveness of their saw. Oh, the good ole' days...:)
 
TAH said:
I always liked the looks of that Nighthawk. I'm assuming Bianchi made the sheath. Is the sheath as high quality as one would expect?
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Yeah mine has a really nice Bianchi leather sheath with a pouch for a small stone on the front.
 
That's what was getting me, too. I was testing sawteeth patterns and configurations in flat bar stock, and no matter what I did, it just bound up. Then I grabbed this old Model 1 blank that was flat ground, and cut some teeth into it, (I was in a hurry, which is why they're uneven) and the thing just went to town. Let me tell you, after that, I can imagine just how Bill Sanders felt, because I sawed just about every piece of wood in the shop. It's quite vigorous, to say the least. And again, its never going to be as good as a "real" saw, but for notching, or for light duty, it works great. That was part of the deal I made with the customer who ordered the sawteeth: I wouldn't do it if the saw didn't work. But it worked just fine.

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JTC said:
Yeah mine has a really nice Bianchi leather sheath with a pouch for a small stone on the front.
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My friend had one, and his, and all the others that I've handled had very nice sheaths with them. In my opinion, the sheath was nicer than the price point would dictate. His was a little older, but the stitching and edges were in great shape. I refinished the knife for him, and I was rather impressed with the build quality of the knife. I wouldn't hesitate to take it out and use it.
 
Sam,

Not for the your "BuckMaster" knife, but if someone is only interested in a saw for notching, how about a larger version of the teeth on the Neeley/Timberline Survival Hunter? They were designed specifically for notching, are low profile, and look like they would be easy to make. Note the high hollow grind.

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I would have to examine the teeth before I could know, but one thing I will bet, is that it is more complicated than it looks. In my opinion, those guys at Timberline (Jim Hardenbrook, Vaughn Neeley, and Bill Sanders) really knew/know what they are doing. That Timberline HH knife, like the one you have and are deservedly proud of, is so well-built and nicely done, even now. I think guys like that just make it look easy.
 
I almost hate to interupt the awesome discussion going on regarding your new design, Sam, or the great pics, but I have more info regarding the article I mentioned in an earlier post. The magazine is Knives Illustrated, the December 2013 edition. The article is called "The Return of the Hollow Handle Survival Knife," and the knife it mentions, whose name I forgot earlier, is imported from CAS Iberia: http://casiberia.com/product/survivalist-aus8-bead-blast/kk0075

Always nice to read about HH knives in a printed publication. :cool:
 
bowie69 said:
I almost hate to interupt the awesome discussion going on regarding your new design, Sam, or the great pics, but I have more info regarding the article I mentioned in an earlier post. The magazine is Knives Illustrated, the December 2013 edition. The article is called "The Return of the Hollow Handle Survival Knife," and the knife it mentions, whose name I forgot earlier, is imported from CAS Iberia: http://casiberia.com/product/survivalist-aus8-bead-blast/kk0075

Always nice to read about HH knives in a printed publication. :cool:
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That's no big deal, bowie. I have a feeling this will be a looong thread. We'll get back to the Buckmaster. I have never seen that CAS Iberia knife before. I would be interested in knowing more about how the handle is attached, although it looks pretty straight forward. I cant say I'm a big fan of having those slots cut in the handle, but if the tang extends sufficiently past that point, it could be quite solid. It looks like the handle is Dural, which I think is some type of trade name or short for Duralumin or something like that. I believe basically its hardened aluminum. I'm sure that shaves some weight. I don't know how much space is in the handle, but it's definitely got a neat military look to it.
 
I've thought of this very subject off/on over the years. I really wanted to like the the Buckmaster(BM). But having carried for a reasonably long time(deer hunting for a couple seasons+ living with it 2 weeks straight in the bush while doing paramilitary training exercises), I just could get past its issues.

But..make it thinner. Better serrations of some sort(what about a smaller version of those badarse small fold-out hand saws. The kind that can fit into a glove box. My son and I use those when out on our 4 wheelers on old grown up logging roadbeds that go up the mtn here near the house. I'm always amazed at how efficiently they cut. A small hardwood tree as big as my forearm or ankle is cut thru in like 15-20 seconds). What about the possibility of a entire titanium handle assembly? Yes it might affect using the other end as a hammer of some sort(something I personally would never want to do)..but it could possibly go along way in changing the handle-heavy balance issue they're so infamous for, putting more weight bias toward the blade. But I've never made a knife so I dunno if that practical or if would even make enough diff.

And use a good proven steel. For me that means maybe 3V, S30V, D2, 154CM, etc.
 
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KDucky's brother said:
I've thought of this very subject off/on over the years. I really wanted to like the the Buckmaster(BM). But having carried for a reasonably long time(deer hunting for a couple seasons+ living with it 2 weeks straight in the bush while doing paramilitary training exercises), I just could get past its issues.

But..make it thinner. Better serrations of some sort(what about a smaller version of those badarse small fold-out hand saws. The kind that can fit into a glove box. My son and I use those when out on our 4 wheelers on old grown up logging roadbeds that go up the mtn here near the house. I'm always amazed at how efficiently they cut. A small hardwood tree as big as my forearm or ankle is cut thru in like 15-20 seconds). What about the possibility of a entire titanium handle assembly? Yes it might affect using the other end as a hammer of some sort(something I personally would never want to do)..but it could possibly go along way in changing the handle-heavy balance issue they're so infamous for, putting more weight bias toward the blade. But I've never made a knife so I dunno if that practical or if would even make enough diff.

And use a good proven steel. For me that means maybe 3V, S30V, D2, 154CM, etc.
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Those are all along the same thoughts I had. I was thinking 3/16" stock instead of 1/4", along with a full flat grind would make a huge difference right off the bat. If you look at the BM, the blade is only ground about halfway or so up. Doing a full flat grind would get rid of a lot of metal, and make a bigger difference than you might think. Titanium would be nice, but quite expensive. I believe the SS tube that I use now would be alright. And I use an aluminum instead of SS cap, which will save some weight. I think the big things would be using thinner stock, the proper sized handle/cap, and getting rid of the giant guard they come with. I was thinking about just using the same basic guard I put on my other knives. It's a slim oval guard out of SS, and does the job without looking super tactical or having threaded ends for spikes.

On the saw, I think the big thing to remember is that any sawback will have limited usefulness on a large knife like that. Part of the reason they are so slow in the first place is that the blade is so wide that you have a large kerf. Those thin saws cut so well in part because they are so thin that little wood has to be removed for the blade to pass through. So a knife sawback is never going to be as efficient. But a good sawtooth pattern (again, for those that want it), will do a decent job at sawing through branches, and a great job at making notches. Oh, and an even better job at looking awesome! :D

As far as steel, I think having 1095 or 5160 as the carbon option, and CPM 154 as the stainless option covers the bases for most. Special order steels could be done. What do you think?
 
While you guys figure out the BuckMaster revamp, let's talk compasses. :D

For those of you who carry a mini compass in the handle of your knife, do you prefer it to be permanently installed in the buttcap or not? I prefer not installed for the following reasons:

1) Convenience - With each bearing, the buttcap does not need to be removed.
2) If the buttcap is used for pounding or the blade for chopping, the compass could be damaged from impact.
3) Permanent installation makes replacing a damaged compass more difficult.


Here is my mini compass collection. Please feel free to post your compasses as well. :thumbup:

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1) Karl Mfg., .25" brass, dry, USA (1980s)
2) Marbles, .50" brass, dry, USA (mid 80s - early 90s), used by Randall
3) Marbles, .50" brass, dry, USA (70s - early 80s), used by Randall, Lile, and Timberline
4) Maker unknown, .50" plastic, liquid, Japan, current Randall compass
5) Pyser-SGI NATO Survival, .50" brass, dry, England, current Wilson Custom Knives compass
6) Maker unknown, .50" brass, dry, USA (late 80s) used by Timberline
7) Stocker & Yale, .75" brass, dry, USA (1980s)
 
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