Tidings and the return of Schatt and Morgan?

[Norcaldude]

Like Queen and Canal Street Cutlery/Canal Street Co-Op?

The problems with Queen at the end have been posted about plenty of times before. They didn't go under because they competed against GEC, they went under because they were shipping a lot of junk to discerning knife enthusiasts.

I don't know why Canal Street went under, I haven't looked into that too much.

My apologies, but it appears to me, that every small company producing a well made knife that goes toe to toe with GEC don't last too long.

So rather than trying to beat a small company at their game you think this new company running on 100 year old tools should go against the giants of the industry?
Case has over 350 employees and is a well known brand.
Victorinox has nearly 2000 employees. They make about 45,000 knives every day. Some guy in Ohio that bought some used up tooling isn't going to take them on.

 

[STDK]

I have been following gilbertcooper on the bay for several years. He has been selling off an amazing collection of knives for several years. Most have the Bluegrass cutlery connection.

 

[Camillus]

Maybe some of us mean something different than you do when we say 'quality control'? Otherwise I'm not sure what you mean by this.

So what I mean is that every single time that QC comes up, we get an endless discussion about what happened to their knife quality in the last few years as the company was going under, and how Queen dealers lost money. It all seems very disproportionate. It’s not like we do the same with Camillus, Schrade, Winchester or any of the other big cutlery companies. We simple appreciate their knives and deduct points if the f&f is not up to spec.

Quality control is only one part of a product. And not the most important part. It has never been the reason to buy an expensive traditional knife, yet reading some sections of these forums would make you think that’s the only aspect of product quality (e.g. the 8 dimensions of product quality) anyone cares about.

I would be very happy to discuss the best patterns that S&M made and whether the rights to those patterns lie with Gilbert or SMKW...

 

[Norcaldude]

So what I mean is that every single time that QC comes up, we get an endless discussion about what happened to their knife quality in the last few years as the company was going under, and how Queen dealers lost money. It all seems very disproportionate. It’s not like we do the same with Camillus, Schrade, Winchester or any of the other big cutlery companies. We simple appreciate their knives and deduct points if the f&f is not up to spec.

I don't understand why it bothers you that people talk about Queen having a quality problem at the end. The quality issues are pretty much the direct cause of Queen going out of business and there are many badly made Queen knives floating around out there for sale. People were buying pallet loads of bad Queen knives and I'm assuming they were not buying those to destroy them and preserve Queen's good name. They bought them to flip them and chances are, they are trying to sell them at high prices.

I have no problem with buying a Queen made knife, if I had the chance to examine it in person myself. Buying one based on just a picture, especially one priced at GEC or higher prices, is not something I would do, especially not if it was made in those last few years.

As for "It’s not like we do the same with Camillus, Schrade, Winchester or any of the other big cutlery companies.", there isn't much talk about those companies here. They went out of business before this slipjoint revival. Most of the people that are driving the GEC sales were not around buying slipjoints back during the heyday of those companies.

Quality control is only one part of a product. And not the most important part. It has never been the reason to buy an expensive traditional knife

This is why I don't think we mean the same thing. I don't buy expensive traditional knives that don't have good quality control. That means they make bad quality knives.
What is the reason to buy an expensive traditional knife if not because it's well made?

 

[Camillus]

‘I have no problem buying a Queen knife as long as I have the chance to examine it in person’.

That is the kind of point I am making. Every aspect of that knife has been subsumed by examining how tightly it has been machined.

I don’t know why it happened, but somehow the whole point of having a knife - using it - or collecting a knife - appreciating every aspect of it - has become subservient to judging its quality by the fit and finish.

Quality takes many forms.

What about all the other things that go into making a knife? A thousand choices, a thousand aspects of manufacturing, of history, of sentiment, of aesthetics. The list is literally endless - and each and every one is important.

 

[Misplaced Hillbilly]

I just want to chime in on the "old machines" aspect. I worked as a welder in a machine shop that produced/refurbished continuous miner heads. A small company with maybe 15-20 employees at any given time, so no "big money" backing it. They had a vertical milling machine with an 8 foot rotating table that was ww2 vintage. That thing probably milled turret rings for Shermans back in the day, then was auctioned off and bought by the Clinchfield Coal Company and used in a company machine shop. And believe me if anyone is hard on equipment its coal company employees. THEN it it was auctioned off again and bought by the owner of the company I worked for,who was a former Clinchfield machinist. I worked there in 2002 and lets say it was a 1942 machine that would be 60 years of almost continuous use. The best of my recollections the table was a couple thousandths of an inch off,so if rotated to 0° it would be 2 thousandths off from center. And the machinists that ran it knew to account for that. Old doesn't mean shoddy or worn out in machinery, proper care and they'll last several lifetimes. And if a machine is out of spec by a little bit the operator will usually know how to compensate. Oh and it had a new three phase electric motor installed in the 1970's because the guy I worked for worked in the coal company shop then and remembered it being changed.

 

[Misplaced Hillbilly]

Oh and as a welder I had some basic machinist training in college, I could probably have set the machine up to do a simple task back then. But I guarantee a part made by me would have been shoddy compared to a seasoned and trained machinist. And if the cutter heads needs replacement even an excellent machinist would turn out a shoddy piece, so maybe in the end Queen wasn't spending the money on cutters and such. To that end an employee can only do as good as his equipment.

 

[mbkr]

Good luck with your endeavour Gilbert! How come there are some S&M's being made by SMKW.

Russell

Very strange having S&M knives being made by one person in Ohio and yet S&M knives by SMKW in china. The only Queen cutler I believe still making knives is for Tuna Valley Cutlery.

I've never seen or heard of S&M's made in China or that SMKW owns S&M. Where did you read this? Link?

 

[Quiet]

So what I mean is that every single time that QC comes up, we get an endless discussion about what happened to their knife quality in the last few years as the company was going under, and how Queen dealers lost money. It all seems very disproportionate. It’s not like we do the same with Camillus, Schrade, Winchester or any of the other big cutlery companies. We simple appreciate their knives and deduct points if the f&f is not up to spec.

Quality control is only one part of a product. And not the most important part. It has never been the reason to buy an expensive traditional knife, yet reading some sections of these forums would make you think that’s the only aspect of product quality (e.g. the 8 dimensions of product quality) anyone cares about.

I would be very happy to discuss the best patterns that S&M made and whether the rights to those patterns lie with Gilbert or SMKW...

Uhhhh...I'm lost. Can you more clearly explain your assertion above? Quality control absolutely IS one of the most important parts, if not the most important part of the knife for many. I don't care how nice the pattern or design is, if the knife comes with significant flaws because it was allowed to leave the factory in that condition due to poor QC, or worse, the company thinking that was acceptable. In the past, I've bought at least a couple of S&M knives on the Big Auction Site that came to me with shield cutouts in the scale that looked like they were done with a flat-tip screwdriver and a hammer, and the shield was simply glued or pinned into place. One of the two also had significant blade play. I returned the both of them immediately, because no matter how nice they were, they had made it out into the wild in that condition.

To address your other point, I have bought multiple old knives from other companies you mention and none of them had these issues. Soooo....I mean, these are issues Queen was known for, and they were a direct result of poor or nonexistent QC. So, I disagree with your assertion that it's not the most important part. At the price these knives cost, it objectively is. EVERYthing else stems from that. I have many knives which are objectively very high quality, with all facets of the knife in a very high level of condition if I need to cut something. So, when I was spending money on Queen knives, I wanted a nice knife, which I expected at the price they command today on the secondary market. Out of the...I'd say seven or eight I've purchased, today I own three. The rest were either given to friends who didn't mind some aesthetic issues, or else they were sent back for severe flaws. I bought a new-in-box large Jack that had a blade ground so thin it was bent.

Someone with working eyes would have caught that if they'd been paying attention.

 

[Norcaldude]

‘I have no problem buying a Queen knife as long as I have the chance to examine it in person’.

That is the kind of point I am making. Every aspect of that knife has been subsumed by examining how tightly it has been machined.

I don’t know why it happened, but somehow the whole point of having a knife - using it - or collecting a knife - appreciating every aspect of it - has become subservient to judging its quality by the fit and finish.

Quality takes many forms.

What about all the other things that go into making a knife? A thousand choices, a thousand aspects of manufacturing, of history, of sentiment, of aesthetics. The list is literally endless - and each and every one is important.

Quality control doesn't mean "How tightly it's been machined". The 'quality' that is being controlled is just checking to make sure the knife meets certain minimum standards when it's done being made. Queen had a reputation for making good knives and they made good knives that many people were willing to pay a premium for, even if they bought it mail order, because Queen had decent quality control and they didn't ship knives that had problems. That meant people knew that when they bought Queen, they were going to get a quality knife.

Then Queen stopped doing this. They shipped knives that were not worth what they were charging. Retailers were giving the knives away rather than trying to sell them!
Nobody is staying in business when your product is so bad you have to give it away. I don't care what the history of the brand is or how nice the people are that work at the factory if the product they make is bad.

If a few people are willing to buy poorly made knives because of, honestly, I'm still not sure what you are talking about, those 'thousand choices', then good for them. But there aren't enough people that are going to want to pay Queen prices for Rough Ryder quality knives.

 

[Old Engineer]

Old Machines that are well maintained can still do a job . We saw that with a company that made some gears for us . 100 % Inspection is not 100 % effective . The Process determines the Quality . You can not inspect Quality into a product . In a Shop , 80 % of your total problem is caused by 20 % of your issues . Of those 20 % ,,, 80% of the those issues are most likely caused by a white collar issue . It took me a while to learn all of that . Been there , done that .

Harry

 

[B.F.U]

I'm sure this has all been gone over by now, but it's Gilbert Cooper (and his sons, it seems) who purchased S&M and will be making them. I've been trying to get ahold of Gilbert to ask some questions for an article for a little while now. Hopefully soon!

 

[B.F.U]

Good luck with your endeavour Gilbert! How come there are some S&M's being made by SMKW.

Russell

SMKW isn't making any Schatt & Morgans. They own the Queen Cutlery and Queen City brands / trademarks, not Schatt & Morgan.

I believe SMKW owns Bluegrass Cutlery, and there seems to be a connection between the owner of Cooper Cutlery and Bluegrass. From that same AAPK thread it sounds like Cooper was at the auction on behalf of Bluegrass, but Cooper Cutlery is a separate entity? I'm not positive.

I don't think SMKW owns Bluegrass Cutlery (maybe you're thinking of Blue Ridge Knives?), and I spoke with BlueGrass Cutlery and (although they're known to each other and Gilbert Cooper makes some knives for Bluegrass) Gilbert Cooper's purchase of Schatt & Morgan was not associated with Bluegrass Cutlery.

 

[Dadpool]

maybe you're thinking of Blue Ridge Knives

I bet I am! Thank you for clearing that up.

 

[cudgee]

Of those 20 % ,,, 80% of the those issues are most likely caused by a white collar issue

I like that, you've made my day.

 

[Camillus]

Uhhhh...I'm lost. Can you more clearly explain your assertion above? Quality control absolutely IS one of the most important parts, if not the most important part of the knife for many. I don't care how nice the pattern or design is, if the knife comes with significant flaws because it was allowed to leave the factory in that condition due to poor QC, or worse, the company thinking that was acceptable. In the past, I've bought at least a couple of S&M knives on the Big Auction Site that came to me with shield cutouts in the scale that looked like they were done with a flat-tip screwdriver and a hammer, and the shield was simply glued or pinned into place. One of the two also had significant blade play. I returned the both of them immediately, because no matter how nice they were, they had made it out into the wild in that condition.

To address your other point, I have bought multiple old knives from other companies you mention and none of them had these issues. Soooo....I mean, these are issues Queen was known for, and they were a direct result of poor or nonexistent QC. So, I disagree with your assertion that it's not the most important part. At the price these knives cost, it objectively is. EVERYthing else stems from that. I have many knives which are objectively very high quality, with all facets of the knife in a very high level of condition if I need to cut something. So, when I was spending money on Queen knives, I wanted a nice knife, which I expected at the price they command today on the secondary market. Out of the...I'd say seven or eight I've purchased, today I own three. The rest were either given to friends who didn't mind some aesthetic issues, or else they were sent back for severe flaws. I bought a new-in-box large Jack that had a blade ground so thin it was bent.

Someone with working eyes would have caught that if they'd been paying attention.

I could explain further, but you are actually doing the explaining for me. My point is that fit and finish are by no means a measure that should be used to judge a knife. I don’t want to descend into management philosophy but its only one part of the overall quality of a knife. It’s part of the assessment, not the assessment.

Some people seem to have decided that because Queen struggled to make knives of consistent fit and finish for a few years, then that is a measure to judge the brand, and because that measure is used to judge Queen, then that is the measure that is used to judge all manufacturers. I am saying this is illogical and wrong.

Let’s talk about Queen’s 2016 catalogue sometime. https://queencutleryhistory.com/index.php/queen-catalogs/ Yes 2016 - but it looks like it was put together in 1994. How does that compare to GEC’s customer engagement? Then let’s discuss the importance of good blade design, and how Queen’s blade designs compare to GEC and Case.

That’s the kind of holistic discussion this topic warrants. If old Queen’s knife quality is discussed, then we should be discussing all aspects of brand and product quality, because a knife is the sum of all of those things. The 8 dimensions of quality if you want to use a common paradigm.

(By the way, I bought a Queen second, a Cougar Creek Teton Mountain, this morning on the bay. I can’t buy that knife anywhere else, no one else made it. Serious question, much do I care if it has some blade play? Answer, I would prefer mint operation but its not a show stopper)

 

[Rusty1]

To ask another question. The small toothpick knives bearing the Schatt & Morgan name with Titusville tang stamp that are being sold. Who are, or who were these made by? They do not look like genuine Schatt and Morgan (Queen) factory made but look more like a Bear and Son production. Don’t want to link to a sales page, an easy search will bring them up.

Russell

 

[B.F.U]

To ask another question. The small toothpick knives bearing the Schatt & Morgan name with Titusville tang stamp that are being sold. Who are, or who were these made by? They do not look like genuine Schatt and Morgan (Queen) factory made but look more like a Bear and Son production. Don’t want to link to a sales page, an easy search will bring them up.

Russell

I'm pretty sure I know what you're referring to, and I was told those are knives that weren't finished that were purchased and put together after Queen's bankruptcy auction.

 

[Quiet]

I could explain further, but you are actually doing the explaining for me. My point is that fit and finish are by no means a measure that should be used to judge a knife. I don’t want to descend into management philosophy but its only one part of the overall quality of a knife. It’s part of the assessment, not the assessment.

Some people seem to have decided that because Queen struggled to make knives of consistent fit and finish for a few years, then that is a measure to judge the brand, and because that measure is used to judge Queen, then that is the measure that is used to judge all manufacturers. I am saying this is illogical and wrong.

Let’s talk about Queen’s 2016 catalogue sometime. https://queencutleryhistory.com/index.php/queen-catalogs/ Yes 2016 - but it looks like it was put together in 1994. How does that compare to GEC’s customer engagement? Then let’s discuss the importance of good blade design, and how Queen’s blade designs compare to GEC and Case.

That’s the kind of holistic discussion this topic warrants. If old Queen’s knife quality is discussed, then we should be discussing all aspects of brand and product quality, because a knife is the sum of all of those things. The 8 dimensions of quality if you want to use a common paradigm.

(By the way, I bought a Queen second, a Cougar Creek Teton Mountain, this morning on the bay. I can’t buy that knife anywhere else, no one else made it. Serious question, much do I care if it has some blade play? Answer, I would prefer mint operation but its not a show stopper)

I'm sorry, I got to "My point is that fit and finish are by no means a measure that should be used to judge a knife." and as that is objectively false, I really couldn't finish your narrative. I am not even sure how you could arrive at such a conclusion, really.

 

[afishhunter]

But there aren't enough people that are going to want to pay Queen prices for Rough Ryder quality knives.

Question:
Have you ever owned or handled a Rough Rider?
I only have 60 or so Rough Rider, around six or seven Case, and a couple off shore made Colt, Schrade, and Marbles, and two GEC.
All the Case and the GEC were gifted to me by very generous members here.

I can honestly say the Case Amber Jigged Bone CV canoe and TB610228W DAM Tear Drop I have, are in every way that matters equal to my GEC 85 and 61 in quality and fit/finish.

I cannot think of a single RR I have that isn't equal to my Case knives in over-all quality, fit/finish, walk and talk, etc.
None of my RR have excessively hard pulls. All are a Buck 301-ish 4 to 5, in fact. Amazingly consistent for all the blades on a single knife, regardless of pattern.
Rough Ryder isn't low quality junk.

Do all my RR equal the fit and finish of my GEC's? Some equal or exceed. Mind, my GEC's are not "perfect". They both have need a bright light to find them gaps between the liners and springs, for example. My 85 has a slight ... ridge ... I suppose you could call it, that you can barely feel at one bolster/cover transition. (big deal. Cosmetic "defects" that have no effect on usability/function.)
Do all my Rough Ryder equal my Case knives in quality? I can't think of one that don't.
I will admit from what I've heard, and read on the Case website, the Case two spring stockman have one thing my two spring Rough Ryder stockmans don't have.
Blade rub.
On Case's website they claim blade rub is to be expected on a two spring three blade stockman, and isn't covered under warranty as a manufacturing defect.
Yet my $9.99 to $17.99 Rough Ryder stockmans with two backsprings and three blades lack that feature.