Tool marks

[Londinium Armoury]

I'll take an ugly but nearly indestructible knife, any day ,over a beautiful but fragile wall hanger .

Some even will pay extra for a distressed , post-apocalyptic finish .

+1 for me too, cosmetic finish can be sanded and fixed by end users with no training needed. Good heat treatment, quality materials, and a nice warranty to back up the product if it fails is what I look for.

 

[brownshoe]

+1 for me too, cosmetic finish can be sanded and fixed by end users with no training needed. Good heat treatment, quality materials, and a nice warranty to back up the product if it fails is what I look for.

"Don't buy no ugly knife"

Most "end users" don't want to finish a knife,that's what they pay the maker to do. If a knife has to be "fixed" it's broken or at least unsatisfactory. The finish is often the discriminator between cutler and hobbyist. Some less experienced or lazy makers put premium scales on poorly ground blades...you can put lipstick on a pig, but it's still a pig

 

[Londinium Armoury]

"Don't buy no ugly knife"

Most "end users" don't want to finish a knife,that's what they pay the maker to do. If a knife has to be "fixed" it's broken or at least unsatisfactory. The finish is often the discriminator between cutler and hobbyist. Some less experienced or lazy makers put premium scales on poorly ground blades...you can put lipstick on a pig, but it's still a pig

Differen't cultures and different knife making traditions have varying views on this practice honestly, this is a "high end modern production knife" standard for sporting knives and hobbyist knives. The attitude is quite differen't in say Japanese traditional custom knife making. Where it can actually sometimes be seen as an insult to demand a Japanese master smith finish his knives past 1000 grit water stones for the customer.
The Japanese blade smith is not a togishi and will expect his professional level chef clients who buy his knives to take his rough polished knife and then polish it himself to whatever standard he demands for his own kitchen. The chef is expected to be a master of his own knife sharpening and polishing.
So you can pay 500+ USD for a premium knife that you are expected to then finish on water stones yourself.
Also
I just thought about this, if the end users of today were more like the end users of the 1600's - 1700's in Europe they would be getting premium grade knives for a better price, because as demand for flawless fit and finish from enthusiast customers rises, the cost of production rises to meet those fussy demands of the end user.
Where as if the end users just used a bit of sand paper, some files and really very standard light finishing skills, they could stop worrying about mirror finish Vs satin, Vs tumbled Vs distressed etc etc. Because all of those finishes are easy to put on knives. You can get a satin finished blade and turn it mirror, or etch it and tumble it yourself. Which will greatly reduce the cost of the knife for the customer.
So really the end user is the one losing out here, not the knife maker, knife makers can easily ferric etch your knife, or sand paper finish it to whatever level you want, but then they are gonna charge you for that finish.
What would you rather have the exact premium knife in rough finish for 200 dollars. Or (insert chosen standard of finish) for 350 dollars. You can make the 200 dollar knife look like the 350 dollar knife anyway with minimal finishing experience.

 

[Richard338]

Differen't cultures and different knife making traditions have varying views on this practice honestly, this is a "high end modern production knife" standard for sporting knives and hobbyist knives. The attitude is quite differen't in say Japanese traditional custom knife making. Where it can actually sometimes be seen as an insult to demand a Japanese master smith finish his knives past 1000 grit water stones for the customer.
The Japanese blade smith is not a togishi and will expect his professional level chef clients who buy his knives to take his rough polished knife and then polish it himself to whatever standard he demands for his own kitchen. The chef is expected to be a master of his own knife sharpening and polishing.
So you can pay 500+ USD for a premium knife that you are expected to then finish on water stones yourself.
Also
I just thought about this, if the end users of today were more like the end users of the 1600's - 1700's in Europe they would be getting premium grade knives for a better price, because as demand for flawless fit and finish from enthusiast customers rises, the cost of production rises to meet those fussy demands of the end user.
Where as if the end users just used a bit of sand paper, some files and really very standard light finishing skills, they could stop worrying about mirror finish Vs satin, Vs tumbled Vs distressed etc etc. Because all of those finishes are easy to put on knives. You can get a satin finished blade and turn it mirror, or etch it and tumble it yourself. Which will greatly reduce the cost of the knife for the customer.
So really the end user is the one losing out here, not the knife maker, knife makers can easily ferric etch your knife, or sand paper finish it to whatever level you want, but then they are gonna charge you for that finish.
What would you rather have the exact premium knife in rough finish for 200 dollars. Or (insert chosen standard of finish) for 350 dollars. You can make the 200 dollar knife look like the 350 dollar knife anyway with minimal finishing experience.

Interesting point of view. I think if the knife in this thread was delivered at 1000 grit finish, then we wouldn't have a thread.
While even a hobbyist maker can modify a knife, it is unlikely for a one-off to be as easy and efficient as for the maker to do it.
I think a maker or company should have some pride in what they are shipping out.
The bottom line for me is that I wouldn't want this knife for free... it's just clutter.

 

[Londinium Armoury]

Interesting point of view. I think if the knife in this thread was delivered at 1000 grit finish, then we wouldn't have a thread.
While even a hobbyist maker can modify a knife, it is unlikely for a one-off to be as easy and efficient as for the maker to do it.
I think a maker or company should have some pride in what they are shipping out.
The bottom line for me is that I wouldn't want this knife for free... it's just clutter.

I was more talking about the shinogi and ha finish being left at 1000 grit. Which are then taken by customer too 6000-8000+
As for the spine, handles flats of the blade and choil area. Lots of Japanese makers leave them rough with sharp corners. You pay extra to have a polished choil. Which most pro chefs in kitchens around Japan don't bother looking for, because it is seen as fussy and not utilitarian, the chef can easily polish his own choil and spine if it's too rough.
Most professionals who need knives for work and use them until they have been sharpened down through years of use. The modern hobbyist and knife enthusiast who doesn't use knives for work, usually looks for something more fussy than a dedicated professional utilitarian high grade work tool.
They have things called safe queens and knives they don't even use and just want to look at.
Lots of pride goes into Japanese knives and they have show pieces that are for artistic pleasure as well. But there is also a market for ultra functional hand made professional tools, and these are far less fussy and not made for enthusiasts as safe queens, they are what the heart of the Japanese food trade uses day to day. Sure the head chef might own a hand polished Honyaki, that cost him 4000 USD polished by professional togishi. But that's not what he's using in his sushi kitchen everyday or his chefs.

 

[David Mary]

I'm a maker so finishing a production knife myself is no big deal. If I ended up with that knife, it would take me a few minutes with my grinder on the spine, a dremel and sanding drums on the underside of the handle, then hand sand the whole thing with worn ceramic belts.

 

[sodak]

I have some knives that are both beautifully finished and are NOT "fragile wall hangers". One has nothing to do with the other.

 

[Londinium Armoury]

I have some knives that are both beautifully finished and are NOT "fragile wall hangers". One has nothing to do with the other.

I don't think anybody said they are mutually exclusive. But 21st century men are a lot more fussy and prissy than their old school counterparts who used to use rough forged tools and not complain about the spine or handle being too rough.

 

[Richard338]

It's not that it's rough on my sensitive hands. It's shoddy workmanship. I don't recall seeing anything like that at the last couple shows I went to. I simply wouldn't buy a knife if I can quickly make a better one myself. If someone posted that in the customs and handmade section it would be crickets and cringe.

 

[brownshoe]

Differen't cultures and different knife making traditions have varying views on this practice honestly, this is a "high end modern production knife" standard for sporting knives and hobbyist knives. The attitude is quite differen't in say Japanese traditional custom knife making. Where it can actually sometimes be seen as an insult to demand a Japanese master smith finish his knives past 1000 grit water stones for the customer.
The Japanese blade smith is not a togishi and will expect his professional level chef clients who buy his knives to take his rough polished knife and then polish it himself to whatever standard he demands for his own kitchen. The chef is expected to be a master of his own knife sharpening and polishing.
So you can pay 500+ USD for a premium knife that you are expected to then finish on water stones yourself.
Also
I just thought about this, if the end users of today were more like the end users of the 1600's - 1700's in Europe they would be getting premium grade knives for a better price, because as demand for flawless fit and finish from enthusiast customers rises, the cost of production rises to meet those fussy demands of the end user.
Where as if the end users just used a bit of sand paper, some files and really very standard light finishing skills, they could stop worrying about mirror finish Vs satin, Vs tumbled Vs distressed etc etc. Because all of those finishes are easy to put on knives. You can get a satin finished blade and turn it mirror, or etch it and tumble it yourself. Which will greatly reduce the cost of the knife for the customer.
So really the end user is the one losing out here, not the knife maker, knife makers can easily ferric etch your knife, or sand paper finish it to whatever level you want, but then they are gonna charge you for that finish.
What would you rather have the exact premium knife in rough finish for 200 dollars. Or (insert chosen standard of finish) for 350 dollars. You can make the 200 dollar knife look like the 350 dollar knife anyway with minimal finishing experience.

Wow! That might be true in your world, but I've been to world class knife shows and never seen a $500 knife you put the edge on yourself. I think you are slinging some serious BS.

The cutlery store down the street sharpens the knives for a host of restaurants as in many cities.

My family member who is a chef buys knives with edges for his kit. We got him a Shun Kramer paring knife for Xmas and he used it out of the box. Only when he worked in a Miami top tier restaurant as a fish cutter, did he get a Japanese knife, already sharp, and put a custom edge on it. He said fish require a differnt and more customized edge than most anything else.

People want and expect knives that cut. Most people don't know squat when it comes finishing a blade and cutting in an edge. That's why cutlers and mastersmiths existed since knives were first made.

 

[sodak]

I don't think anybody said they are mutually exclusive. But 21st century men are a lot more fussy and prissy than their old school counterparts who used to use rough forged tools and not complain about the spine or handle being too rough.

Certainly true. But their old school counterparts certainly didn't pay as much for rough forged tools either. I think we're talking at a certain price point, some things should be done correctly, and not left rough.

 

[Londinium Armoury]

Certainly true. But their old school counterparts certainly didn't pay as much for rough forged tools either. I think we're talking at a certain price point, some things should be done correctly, and not left rough.

I think it depends on the type of knife yoou are buying. Is it a collectors show piece, is it a professional work tool, what standard of finish should a utilitarian wood workers tool have, proobably not the same level of finish a collectors show piece would have. I think the "every knife must be show piece finish or it's not good" is a terrible attitude to have especially towards utilitarian workers tools.
Lets take carpenters for example, you can say cheap chinese made chisels actually have better level of fit and finish than hand forged japanese chisels, and it's true, the chinese ones are polished and have no rough spots, what you would call "well finished"
Where as the hand made Japanese chisels cost x5 more maybe x10 more and they have rough kurouchi finish, with sharp corners and blemishes on the handles. In your opinion the Chinese polished chisels are better finish, but in reality the Japanese hand forged ones are far superior quality even though they look less "finished"

 

[Londinium Armoury]

Wow! That might be true in your world, but I've been to world class knife shows and never seen a $500 knife you put the edge on yourself. I think you are slinging some serious BS.

The cutlery store down the street sharpens the knives for a host of restaurants as in many cities.

My family member who is a chef buys knives with edges for his kit. We got him a Shun Kramer paring knife for Xmas and he used it out of the box. Only when he worked in a Miami top tier restaurant as a fish cutter, did he get a Japanese knife, already sharp, and put a custom edge on it. He said fish require a differnt and more customized edge than most anything else.

People want and expect knives that cut. Most people don't know squat when it comes finishing a blade and cutting in an edge. That's why cutlers and mastersmiths existed since knives were first made.

Your very limited personal viewpoint is 100% false in Japan.
Yes Japanese chefs are expected to be able to polish and sharpen their own knives.
Japanese smiths do not polish their own knives to 8000+ grit.
Yes Sushi needs very fine edge, and the chef is the one who needs to put that 16000 grit edge on his own knife, no blade smith is going to sit there and polish his knife to 16000 grit.

 

[Londinium Armoury]

Wow! That might be true in your world, but I've been to world class knife shows and never seen a $500 knife you put the edge on yourself. I think you are slinging some serious BS.

The cutlery store down the street sharpens the knives for a host of restaurants as in many cities.

My family member who is a chef buys knives with edges for his kit. We got him a Shun Kramer paring knife for Xmas and he used it out of the box. Only when he worked in a Miami top tier restaurant as a fish cutter, did he get a Japanese knife, already sharp, and put a custom edge on it. He said fish require a differnt and more customized edge than most anything else.

People want and expect knives that cut. Most people don't know squat when it comes finishing a blade and cutting in an edge. That's why cutlers and mastersmiths existed since knives were first made.

How often do you practice shinogi flattening on your Japanese hand made knives?
Because if you do have experience with hand forged japanese knives, you would know there is a process called shinogi flattening.
Why do you think shinogi flattening is even needed with 90% of Japanese knives? if the smith polished and perfected the shinogi himself, why do all chefs need to flattern their shinogi?
Because news flash, the smith is busy making more knives, you can flattern the shinogi yourself, and if you don't know how to do that with water stones you have no business even buying this type of knife lol.

 

[Londinium Armoury]

For those who want a reference point to look up quickly about my arguments. Lets use the Japanese well respected name Shigefusa as our example.
Their budget knives atart at around 300 USD. Where you will recieve a kurouchi rough blacksmith finish knife. Possibly with wavy shinogi line and unpolished flats and spine and choil.
If you want a knife from Shigefusa that has been hand polished with no kurouchi black finish and polished spine and choil. You aren't getting that for 300 USD budget price. Shigefusa will tell you "Nah that's budget prices, you wan't premium finish, you pay us 900 USD"

 

[Richard338]

I like japanese knives and culture as much as the next guy, but I'm not sure how we got to discussing practicing shinogi.
To recap, the OP bought a knife for which the best feature is its return policy. He returned it and bought a CPK. He has moved on to starting threads about Sheeple in the CPK subforum.
We should start a new thread about japanese knives if we need to...

 

[Londinium Armoury]

I like japanese knives and culture as much as the next guy, but I'm not sure how we got to discussing practicing shinogi.
To recap, the OP bought a knife for which the best feature is its return policy. He returned it and bought a CPK. He has moved on to starting threads about Sheeple in the CPK subforum.
We should start a new thread about japanese knives if we need to...

Fair point, I was just trying to show peoople the difference between expectations in varying knife making and buying traditions. I read lots of posts on forums about "complaints" and especially for "Hard use" outdoors knives.
You would expect people buying "Hard use outdoors knives" to be a little harder and rugged, but it seems like 95% of people buying "hard use" knives are hung up on very unrugged things, like the handle being too rough for delicate hands.
Aren't you hard use guys supposed to be tactical barrel chested men, who can sharpen their knives on river stones etc.
Hard use rugged knife for the modern metrosexual man.

 

[sodak]

[...] In your opinion the Chinese polished chisels are better finish, but in reality the Japanese hand forged ones are far superior quality even though they look less "finished"

Do not EVER, I mean EVER, put words in my mouth. I said what I meant. You are perverting what I said.

 

[Tyson A Wright]

I don't think anybody said they are mutually exclusive. But 21st century men are a lot more fussy and prissy than their old school counterparts who used to use rough forged tools and not complain about the spine or handle being too rough.

This is a silly bit of weird false nostalgia. I seem to recall that you are a fellow HEMA practitioner. Go look at some period rapiers (not reproductions). The fit and finish is excellent. For that matter, go look at some period bronze swords - same. The expectation of rough finish for higher-priced items because they are for "hard use" is a modern concept. ("Higher priced" in this case meaning: no non-knife knut is going to spend this much on a knife in this category - they will go buy one of the big Buck knives, which will work pretty well and have a finished spine, for less than this.)

 

[Londinium Armoury]

This is a silly bit of weird false nostalgia. I seem to recall that you are a fellow HEMA practitioner. Go look at some period rapiers (not reproductions). The fit and finish is excellent. For that matter, go look at some period bronze swords - same. The expectation of rough finish for higher-priced items because they are for "hard use" is a modern concept. ("Higher priced" in this case meaning: no non-knife knut is going to spend this much on a knife in this category - they will go buy one of the big Buck knives, which will work pretty well and have a finished spine, for less than this.)

You're right, there were and still are exceptional intricate pieces, especially some of the more fancy ornate swords, I do collect antique swords and knives as well. There's different grades of sword though, the very fancy non regulation swords usually officers, nobles, royals, aristocracy would carry very fine pieces, they would also pay a very pretty penny for them.
Your average peasant, conscript or anybody lower than a "Man at arms" position would typically have less fine swords and daggers etc, even pocket knives and such would be more rough utilitarian and bare bones.
I've seen some amazing blue gilt officers swords, and seen Italian, British, French, Hungarian etc swords in displays, some of them are true works of art (Well at least on the show side, the hidden sides on the non show side were sometimes unfinished, because nobody see's that part of the scabbard or sword when carried.
That's why I distinguish two types of well made blades, ornate show pieces (still functional, like custom gilt officers sabre) then you have basic infantry or regulation equipment, made by companies like Pillin and Wilkinson etc, or local production. These would be much lower grade.
I'm not putting ornate show pieces Vs functional utilitarian.
I'm saying there used to be an accepted difference, now in the modern world, everybody wants royalty level, even when performing dirty grunt work. Good quality and fully functional doesn't have to mean custom officer grade gilt sabre, there is still a place for regulation functional utilitarian, but if a modern person sees some rough forge marks, or a little kurouchi or rough spine they freak out, even though they claim they are going to be getting down and dirty with the tool hardcore op style.
It's funny as well because if you take say the Sebenza 21 community, which I am a part of. You will quickly find out that hardly anybody likes the sand blasted sebenza fancy finish on the scales. They prefer when it looks like its been 10 rounds with a grizzly bear looking scuffed up.
Chris and Tim Reeve should have just kicked all the 21's across the workshop floor before sending the knives out, to make sure the finish is nice and scratched up. They basically wasted thousands in finishing costs.