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VG-10 steel.

Discussion in 'Spyderco' started by brembo, Dec 8, 2001.

  1. Sal Glesser

    Sal Glesser Moderator Moderator

    Dec 27, 1998
    We found that ATS-34 and ATS-55 were close enough in edge retention and corrossion resistance (CATRA & "Q"-fog) to both work equally well as a knife blade.

    However, as we work with and test other steels, I'm sure we will continue to "evolve". We are no longer making ATS-55. It was a propriotary steel, but we had to make wuite a bit of it. Many of our current ATS-55 blades will be replaced with VG-10 or ? as the supply runs out. I'm currently carrying one of our new Delicas PE with VG-10.

    There was a time whtn Gin 1 was the best production knife steel. Aint modern teknology grand?

    Joe, you are correct about the moly in both ATS steels. The moly was originally added to stainless steel (Crucible's 154CM) to stop the "high temperature creep" associated with stainless steel in jet turbines. Carbides are as you mention but testing did not reveal a great difference in abrasion resistance..

    We are also testing Crucibles new S30V and another new powdered metal. both are looking very good. You will more than likely see those on our "steel menu" in the future.

    Hi Malex. Takefu mades VG-10 in a variety of custom thicknesses. We are currently testing a run of Chinooks that we made from VG-10. Maybe we'll use one for a contest?


    sal
     
  2. Jeff/1911

    Jeff/1911

    Mar 22, 2001
    Sal,

    It's sure fun to hear about future plans for Spyderco. Thanks for the "window" through which to peer excitedly.

    Jeff.
     
  3. John Frederick

    John Frederick

    491
    Apr 17, 2001
    VG-10 Chinooks :eek: Awsome!! :D :D
     
  4. fudo

    fudo

    Aug 27, 1999
    Hi Sal!
    First, I wish you and all at Spyderco a very Merry Christmas and my congratulations for a job well done.
    Second, May we have plain-edge military's with VG-10 blades? PLEASE???(whine)
     
  5. japansteel

    japansteel

    74
    Oct 28, 2002
    Takefu is a only marchant. They dont have any melting furnece
    ,mill machin etc.They buy steels from Hitachi-Yasuki-Hagane.So their possiblity is limited.If hitachi decide stopping to supply law steel,they will die soon.Notification will come, since Takefu is haughty.
     
  6. calyth

    calyth #!/bin/sh of a man

    Feb 23, 2002
    VG-10 Chinook! Goodness!
    Well I love VG-10, however sharpening experience is exactly the opposite. It sharpens easily.
    I manage to shave my beard with a VG-10 Navigator out of the box ;)
     
  7. Blade Santa Cruz

    Blade Santa Cruz

    321
    May 6, 1999
    fudo,

    A new run of Millies with S30V has been made. Evidently this is now the standard Military blade material, but it will take a while to move the older stock through. S30V outperforms VG10, so your prayers have already been answered (along with mine).
     
  8. Jeff Clark

    Jeff Clark

    Apr 27, 1999
    One of the reasons that you had trouble raising a burr that you could feel is that VG-10 abrades so smoothly that it form less of a burr. You might do better looking edge-on at the blade with a strong light behind you. As you work on your bevel you can see the edge reflection disappear. Then work the other side. This might save time and steel compared to trying to raise a noticeable burr.
     
  9. japansteel

    japansteel

    74
    Oct 28, 2002
    Edge of VG-10 dont have so excellent performance.
    If you buy this steel blade, it is not recommended.
    Feature of this steel is high grindability and beautiful finish.
    But wear resistance of this steel is inferior to ATS-34.
    I think that you must buy beautiful finished knife made from ATS-34
    which is high wear resistance.

    But if you want to make your new knife,VG-10 may be recommended.
     
  10. Sal Glesser

    Sal Glesser Moderator Moderator

    Dec 27, 1998
    Hi Japansteel. I understand that you work for Hitachi and we really appreciate and respect the loyalty that you have. We have been using Hitachi Steels for more than 20 years and we also appreciate their efforts. Gingami and ATS have been our mainstays in steel for 20 years.

    However, in our testing, which we do a great deal of, I must disagree with you on the edge retention. In our testing, the "king" of edge retention in production steels must go to CPM-S90V (Crucible) and ZDP-189 (Hitachi).

    In the high quality ingot steels, we are getting better results from VG-10 both in our lab testing and customer response. I respect your knowledge and opinions, but I must humbly disagree with your conclusions.

    sal
     
  11. japansteel

    japansteel

    74
    Oct 28, 2002
    I am sad about the state of the latest choice of edge steels.I am trying to say two things.

    First,if we continues depending on edge steel, nobody will stop feeling the charm of a knife. Although you may understand, if the wear resistance of edge steel is raised -- a special grinder -- needed -- just -- being alike -- those who make a knife from an personal motive will be shut out.This may be cause of the end of American knife curture.Is there other improvement area?

    Second,a fear of tendency that we depend on edge steel too much with few try and error, and we becomes impossible to judge whether good or not good edge steel is felt.Considering treating ZDP-189 as same rank as CPM-S90V containing high Vanadium, the further confusion of future edge steel is predicted.Vanadium is taken up by the elementary textbook of metallurgy as an element which raises wear resistance. However, it is not added to ZDP-189.Do you consider why?
    Although it may carry out by written things in the textbook as reference at first, the composition with which we actually make,hear many opinions that users say,and also re-make was will not become like S90V at last.
     
  12. dogboye

    dogboye Gold Member Gold Member

    Nov 23, 1999
    Nothing personal toward Hitachi or japansteel, but I'm going to be a bit more blunt. VG-10 is much better than ATS-34 in my experience and my use. It takes a finer edge, and holds it longer. I care not for finish, as far as looks. I care what kind of edge a steel takes, how long it keeps it, and how long it takes to restore the edge once blunted. If VG10 is available in a given knife, I wouldn't push for a change to even S90V or S30V, as good as those are supposed to be. For me, VG10 is a known; S30V, and especially S90V, are unknown variables to me. I'd just as soon go for the sure thing, and VG10 ranks up there in the top few in the list of every steel I've ever used.
     
  13. japansteel

    japansteel

    74
    Oct 28, 2002
    On the basis with few reliability, determination a rank of steels is not best way. Most, reliable evaluation is a user's voice. However, it has been continued to controll this evaluation by knife makers too much,in the case of limitation on web. Therefore, that the judgment standard became uncertain may cause one of the confusion of the latest opinions of edge steels.

    In addition, I didnt write comments with any lie always. Therefore, various persons put me under pressure.But in my opinion,Spyderco is considered to have taken a most sincere attitude against the qualities of steels.

    japansteel
     
  14. ajrand

    ajrand

    166
    Aug 30, 2001
    I don't want to join the @issin' match, but my vg-10 PE Calypso Jr's. (don'cha love full flat ground leaf-shaped blades?) are so sharp that the hairs on my arm just surrender and fall off every time I open one of them. Don't even have to get the blade near them!
     
  15. dogboye

    dogboye Gold Member Gold Member

    Nov 23, 1999
    To be honest, and I mean no disrespect (no lack of respect), I'm having a hard time following the language in your posting, japansteel.

    If I understand what you wrote, then I must say that I did not intend to say you were lying. What I would say is that if you are saying that ATS-34 gets sharper than VG10 and stays sharper longer you seem mistaken, when compared with my experience with both steels. However, I'm sure you are speaking of ATS-34 heat treated ideally, to Hitachi specs. It could very well be that I have never experienced ATS-34 treated ideally to Hitachi specs, and that could be the source of my error. :)
     
  16. Simple Man

    Simple Man

    Nov 6, 2001
    In day in/day out usage, I have had much better results with S30V over VG-10. This could be due to grinds though. My Millie has a <30 deg angle (thanks Sal) whereas the Endura was more like <40 somewhere.
     
  17. Sal Glesser

    Sal Glesser Moderator Moderator

    Dec 27, 1998
    Hi Japansteel. You mentioned:

    "On the basis with few reliability, determination a rank of steels is not best way".

    This is probably true since a rank is only in one direction. Comparison is what the knife user is seeking. Rank in each area would be a better analysis.

    "Most, reliable evaluation is a user's voice. However, it has been continued to controll this evaluation by knife makers too much,in the case of limitation on web. Therefore, that the judgment standard became uncertain may cause one of the confusion of the latest opinions of edge steels".

    This is also true. We try to listen to the user's voice from all areas. This type of information is difficult to obtain. We are fortunate to have different experts such as yourself to help further our understanding. In the absence of "facts", the judgements and opinions are very important and are always considered.

    "In addition, I didnt write comments with any lie always. Therefore, various persons put me under pressure.But in my opinion,Spyderco is considered to have taken a most sincere attitude against the qualities of steels".

    I do not think that anyone here is telling lies. And there is also no pressure in this sharing of information. I'm sorry that you feel Spyderco is taking an attitude against the qualities of steels. We try to always consider the qualities of steels. Spyderco obtained it's reputation using Hitachi steels for over 20 years. We have great respect for the Genius in Hitachi steel development.

    You must also consider that the market demand has great influence in the makers directions. At this time, the market is asking for VG-10.

    You must also consider that the market in the USA is different. Finishes like the beautiful angel hair finish used by Japanese makers is not in demand here. Our first Moran was ground hamaguri but the number of customers that could appreciate the grind and pay the price was too small, so we had to change to flat grind.

    I personally appreciate your visiting and contributing to our forum. We can all learn much from each other. You had mentioned in your email that you had hopes to develop a superior knife steel. When this is accomplished, Spyderco would be honored to bring it to the marketplace. We have brought a number of new steels to the marketplace. We would also be pleased to run any test steels through our own testing if this would speed up develoment.

    Hey RockSpyder. Your tag is similar to my auto license plate.

    sal
     
  18. dogboye

    dogboye Gold Member Gold Member

    Nov 23, 1999
    HEY!! I bet it is! I hadn't thought about that, but that's really COOL! I got the Native American name from Rob Simonich, based on my userid.
     
  19. japansteel

    japansteel

    74
    Oct 28, 2002
    Hi sal.
    I understand your baisis.
    Is it true that major tendency is VG-10?
    Why do US-people like high vanadium steels?
    What do you think about Crucible who likes vanadium?
     
  20. Sal Glesser

    Sal Glesser Moderator Moderator

    Dec 27, 1998
    Hi Japansteel,

    Is it true that major tendency is VG-10?

    At this time, yes, in the USA marketplace and we are also seeing the tendency in Europe. It seems to be the tendency in the Western world to compare all and seek the "best". Then the "best" gets an unfair share of the attention. In America, more "horsepower" or "cutting power" is the greatest measure of the "best" in knife steels.

    In Nippon, we have Maguro, Tako & Uni. "All good" just different". This is an attitude that I prefer and try to teach. Each steel has advantages and disadvantages. I have thought about starting a "steel club" making "mules" ("test knives") of the many steels so it would be possible to see the beauty in all steels, but it is a large undertaking for one with little spare time.

    Why do US-people like high vanadium steels?

    High Vanadium steels have large vanadium carbides that feel sharp and cut aggressively. There is also good abrasion resistance. Also, a certain part of the attraction may be in advertising and opinions of the users which are very influencial. I have seens "fad" in Nippon happen very quickly such as the ladies coloring their hair European style. I think much information in the knife industry in America moves in that direction.

    What do you think about Crucible who likes vanadium?

    Crucible is an old steel manufacturing company that tries hard to be at the front of technology and improvement, much like Hitachi. They are easy to work with, probably because they are a smaller foundry. We do testing for them in our lab on newer materials. We have tested steel with 15% vanadium. Very good abrasion resistance, very difficult to cut and grind. Crucible sends representatives to the knife shows, answering questions and propmoting their company.

    Hitachi has not been properly promoted in the USA. Perhaps with ZDP-189 we might have an opportunity to do so. Or if you and Hitachi are able to come up with a unique new steel, we can do the same.

    sal
     

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