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VG-10 steel.

Discussion in 'Spyderco' started by brembo, Dec 8, 2001.

  1. Steve Hayden

    Steve Hayden

    Mar 7, 2003
    The Crucible CPM high vanadium steels don't form the large carbides due to the nature of their solidification process in a vacuum chamber and vacuum welding which keeps particles small and stops the oxidation that occurs with sintered powder metals.
    The fine grained texture gives added strength to the steel. S30V is much like D2 chemically, but with added Cr-2%, V-3% and Mo-1%, yet is stronger due to the CPM process not building large carbides to act as crack tip instigation and propagation sites.
     
  2. Sal Glesser

    Sal Glesser Moderator Moderator

    Dec 27, 1998
    Hi Shgeo. I stand corrected. A large amount of vanadium carbides, not larger in size.

    Also, S30V contains nitrogen. Spec calls for up to 2%. Crucible says they average over 1%.

    sal
     
  3. Franco G

    Franco G

    398
    Dec 29, 2000
    Hi Sal,

    you are probably talking about 0.2 and 0.1 % nitrogen. 1-2 % would be too much.

    I read somewhere that nitrogen acts effectively like an additional carbon - so that 0.1 % nitrogen counts like about 1 % carbon (roughly, I don't remember exact numbers). The article I read was about X-15 TN steel, I think a knife in question was a German Orca.

    Franco
     
  4. Sal Glesser

    Sal Glesser Moderator Moderator

    Dec 27, 1998
    Hi Franco. Yes, you are correct. Spec for the steel is .20, Crucible says they generally get over .10. sorry 'bout that. Need to proof more slowly.

    It is my understanding that Nitrogen essentially replaces the carbon atom in the steel matrix. X15tn uses .21 Nitrogen but a very low .42 carbon. The theory is that the Nitrogen will do the job of the carbon in edge retention but not have the corrosion problem due to the lower carbon content. Busse knives use a Nitrogen based steel as well. H-1 uses .1 Nitrogen and a very low .15 carbon.

    Crucible tried to find the "ideal" combination of C & N in S30V.

    All of these materials seem to have different results in different areas.

    Hitachi's ZDP-189 packs a whoppin' 3.0 carbon and 20% chrome and little else.

    sal
     
  5. dialex

    dialex

    Oct 8, 2002
    Do I read well? A VG-10 Chinook?
     
  6. Sal Glesser

    Sal Glesser Moderator Moderator

    Dec 27, 1998
    Hi Dialex. We made 23 Chinooks in VG-10 to test the steel in our own facility. We used one for a contest for Children's Hospital, one for the museum and we're planning on offering the balance to our collector club.

    sal
     
  7. japansteel

    japansteel

    74
    Oct 28, 2002
    In the case of powder metallurgy,Vanadium carbide is good fine.
    What i wanted to point out is Unbalance of hardness between vanadium carbide and matrix.Ando also it is low efficiency of retention in spite of not so high sharp edge keeping ability.
     
  8. Steve Hayden

    Steve Hayden

    Mar 7, 2003
    S30V holds an edge better than ATS 34, is stronger (4 times the transverse strength according to Crucible Steel) and is more stain resistant.
     
  9. dialex

    dialex

    Oct 8, 2002
    The nitrogen replaces the carbon without "stealing" the chrome, thus stain resistance.
     
  10. japansteel

    japansteel

    74
    Oct 28, 2002
    Shgeo
    @your thinkin is now oldfashion.
    Dialex
    Good fresh.Please more study.
     
  11. dogboye

    dogboye Gold Member Gold Member

    Nov 23, 1999
    Well, I'm dumbfounded. Dazed and confused. Are you saying that S30V does NOT holds its edge better than ATS-34? I'm sorry, but while I cannot directly address S30V in daily casual use, I can address ATS-34, and say that it is ... well, let me just say, "nothing special," when compared to such steels as VG10 even (which is where we started). While I will never again just accept someone else's word that something like S30V or S60V is a wonder steel, I can state what I have observed myself. Unless I am totally misunderstanding you, you are making statements about ATS-34 that do not bear up against my experience with that steel! :confused:
     
  12. Steve Hayden

    Steve Hayden

    Mar 7, 2003
    Japansteel,
    From some of your comments, it would seem that you confuse Crucible's particle metal process with the older sintering of powders. If this is the case then I am not the only one out of date. ATS 34 has never seen the day that it could compete with S30V. Check out the specifications from Crucible.
    Damasteel also produces a superior product to ATS34, RWL 34 by the particle metal process.
     
  13. Flatlander1963

    Flatlander1963 Gold Member Gold Member

    Jan 28, 2008
    Interesting Tread.
     
  14. hoopster

    hoopster

    Jan 12, 2007
    Part of what you're experiencing could be due to the Lum Chinese edge geometry also. It is a wide full flat grind blade. The edge is very thin and mine came scary sharp from the factory.
     
  15. dsmegst

    dsmegst

    Jul 21, 2009
    This is like a history lesson in blade steel adoption. Good read.
     
  16. JNewell

    JNewell

    Nov 18, 2005
    Wow, zombie thread alert! - great historical reading, though. I especially liked the part in bold red below, which is from 2003 (!). By the way, Nutnfancy's YouTube video on the Spyderco 2010 SHOT booth has a great interview with Ed Schempp in which he talks about why he likes VG-10.

     
  17. arty

    arty

    Oct 18, 2003
    I sharpened a VG10 blade yesterday - it was easy.
    I find it much harder to sharpen a blade made of ATS 34 or D2.
    I used ceramic stones.
    D2 is a bear to sharpen.
     
  18. Simple Man

    Simple Man

    Nov 6, 2001
    At risk of quoting myself, it is interesting seeing one's old posts from years before. I have since warmed up to VG-10, and also to much thinner edges, somewhere between 10-12 deg overall. One of the few threads worth reviving. Thanks
     
  19. cotdt

    cotdt

    Oct 2, 2006
    It's amazing how Sal had the idea for the Mule Team back in 2001, and how long it took to make that idea a reality. Good history lesson.
     
  20. 7rip13a

    7rip13a

    902
    Jul 2, 2009
    I agree. It's funny for me, since these guys were talking about stuff at a time when when my knowledge of blade steels, and even basic chemistry, was pretty much nonexistent.
     

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