Warning! Lots of bad words, thoughts and images.

Originally posted by agincour
If so have lots of money and a good lawyer, cause you're gonna be sued, - - forever.
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Check this out. I know the guy (who defended himself) in the article...great guy...former student of mine.

Shooting Makes Angry Driver Latest Road Rage Statistic

Police said Thursday that Marcus Shane Peacock was shot to death after he "intentionally positioned" his Mercedes-Benz to block the path of a Honda sport utility vehicle.

Several witnesses told police that Peacock cut off the SUV about 6:45 p.m. on Richmond at Shepherd.

When the westbound vehicles came to a stop, police said, Peacock, 38, got out of his car, walked to the SUV and pounded so hard on the driver's side window that it shattered.

The driver of the SUV, David J. Russo, 32, fired his gun four or five times at Peacock, striking him in the chest. Russo is a lawyer who has a permit to carry a concealed handgun.

Peacock was taken to Ben Taub Hospital, where he later died.

Family members told Peters that Peacock, a stockbroker, had been in a coma for a period of time about a year ago.

Russo gave no statement to police at the scene. Late Thursday he told investigators that the aggressive driving started about a mile away near Montrose. Peters said Peacock apparently had been tailgating Russo.

"He (Russo) said he was in fear for his life and that's why he shot (when Peacock approached his car)," Peters said.

The case has been referred without charges to a Harris County grand jury that will have to determine if the shooting was justified.
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Here's another version...

A couple of things to note:

  1. Russo gave no statement at the scene
  2. Russo's lawyer arrived at the scene prior to several of the investigating officers (saw this on tv).
  3. Finally, Russo mentioned to police that he was afraid for his life.
    [/list=1]

    Just thought I'd remind us all of the most important "after the fact" action...call you attorney before you say anthing.
 
Someone mentioned Bram, and the concept of a bio-mechanical cutting. I am not him and can't claim his expertise, but I have had some formal knife training, so I thought I'd at least explain the "other" theory. The discussion so far has been on how to kill, with the sub text that killing will stop an assailant. Agreed. But as you gun people know, killing and stopping do not always go hand-in-hand. That is to say, one can kill with a .25, but a .45 has more stopping power. If you stab someone it may eventually kill them, but how soon, and how much damage will they inflict in the mean while? (I recognize that a relentless attack to the face and neck is being advocated to increase the chance of a quick kill.)

The alternative theory is to mechanically disable your attacker by severing the tendons and muscles which render him a threat, thus achieving stopping power, though not necessarily killing power. The theory goes that if you score a cut across the tendons on the inside of his arm, he will no longer be able to hold a weapon in that hand, no matter how badly he might want to. (I acknowledge that he still has another hand.) Other targets are the biceps and triceps to disable the arm as a whole, or the tendons on his leg so he cannot stand.

These concepts as I understand them have their roots in the Filipino Martial Arts practice of "defanging the snake." Part of the theory is that if your opponent is armed with anything other than a gun, he has to extend his arm or leg to make contact with you, thus opening them up for a disabling attack. While I can't say whether these techniques are effective in the heat of a life-or-death struggle, they have apparently been of use to the combatants of that country over the centuries.

Best regards,
Argyll
 
I agree. I think that defanging the snake is a great technique for a non projectile weapons fight. The reason I clarify this is because if something needs to be put down quick or unarmed I'd use defanging as a prelude to entry.

If you have the luxury to remain at a distance, several methodical limb attacks will go very far.

Then there are many angles from which one can attack the limbs and certainly an unappropriate attack or ill timed can be bad. That's why FMA is great, but that is about the extent of my knowledge.

And I would never ever discount the trauma involved in a stab. I'm sure if someone was stabbed, especially with a Strider or comparable blade it would be horrible. Even someone on crack would be hurting very bad - imagine not only the abdominal muscles tearing but the deep organ disruption. True, they aren't going to die right away, but I don't expect them be very motivated after that.

Unless they still present an imminent thread, a good poke and you might as well back off and let them realize what happened.

I keep thinking about this in terms of a non-gun or non pcp street encounter where it's serious and you have to get out the ugly face. Not some ninja war, not sentry removal, not a hostage situation, no explosives involved, etc... I don't have any idea about those things.

If there are guns or pcp involved and you only have a blade... I think it's pretty much instinct after that.
 
As for dealing with Crack head. You might just piss them off when you injure them. I know this one we have arrested over and over again, who got shot one night by another crack head. The Doc at the ER had to compare an X-ray from the last time he got shot to find out which was the new bullet in him. He was in pain, but also very worked up. I think crack makes you imortal, but makes you a boil on the but of the world at the same time. Thats not even getting into the issue of crystal meth, or PCP. I think if you are in a knife fight with a person that is on drugs, then criple him and run, or kill him as quick as possable. If you have a pistol, then remember to Triple F him(Fire till the Fu*@er falls). Unfortunatly you wont know if they are on drugs till you get the morning news. SOX
 
In reference to the icepick style grip...

I realize that it was mentioned that knifefights rarely happen, but just as the coolheaded gunslinger can sidestep a violent straightforward assault, so can someone with a knife or stick or brick or hands.

It seems to me that the icepick style would limit your effective range, and in the last resort case of a knife being pulled (pucker time) I'd want as much distance as possible. Look at the emphasis on reach in boxing or mixed martial arts (mma) fights. A couple of inches can make a big difference in terms of landing a stiff jab (stab, in this case) versus pawing at the air.

I realize this might sound a little esoteric for some, but other than holding the knife spine on forearm enar/behind thigh to mask the intention, I don't see much advantage in icepick style. Again, never been trained in knifefighting! Only trying to apply what I picked up in MMA stuff.

I'd think the saber style grip allows for a better reach to stab, less commital (no bull style rush) and slashing without leaving your liver open for counter.

Need more info! Thanks...
 
Having been a Military LEO for over 18 years now and currently an instructor, the most iportant part of this whole thing as stated earlier is the mindset. I try to train my students that they MUST win. No matter what is happening, their ultimate goal is to go home after shift.

Apart from that, a very interesting article in this months Police Marksman magazine titled "Stress reactions related to lethal force encounters" by Bill Lewinski offers some interesting info. The article explains about how the senses sharpen and deaden at the same time to focus on the threat. Basically the mind shuts out everything not related to the fight.

Time perception also was affected as aparrently, the information was coming in so fast, that the brain could only process the information at a set speed, making time seem to slow down.

Another interesting thing was about emotional investment in the fight. It seemed that the best outcome was achieved (least amount of loss of perception) was when emotions were suspended, much like the japanese samurai would attempt to divest himself of emotion and self preservation to make the first, quickest and deadliest cut to terminate the fastest, despite the possibility that he would also be killed.

Another thing that has not yet been mentioned is the color coded mindset. The article mentions that the worst reactions, including temporary paralysis occurred when the defender (usually the LEO) was in condition white and went straight into condition black. One must always be prepared and at least in condition yellow to be constantly aware of the threats around them.

I believe that being in condition yellow and escalating at a moments notice has served me well over the years, both on the job and off. Knowing where the danger lies and either avoiding or having even that split seconds amount of time to better prepare for the fight is paramount to the survival mindset.

Then when the encounter has begun, the berserk must begin. Explosive action designed to overwhelm your opponents ability to defend himself is the only way to ensure that you will come out alive. Sure, you want to target the most vital organs when possible, but this explosivity should allow you to work your way towards the vital parts while inflicting as many other wounds as possible. In the life or death struggle, the legal aftermath is the least of your worries and might be best prepared for by engaging in the services of or researching who the best defense lawyer might be. In my case, I believe that Masaad Ayoob is the best expert witness around and would be one of the first to call to help defend myself legally.

Whew! Another long winded, but hopefully informative post. Sorry guys.

And Mick, hope to see you at Blade.:D

Ed
 
JUST SOME THOUGHTS

Rage and stab. Here is a problem unless you are the assailant everyone will face. The attacker, BG or whatever you like to call them has his heart pounding he is full of rage. You the defender in 99 percent of circumstances will be completly unaware until you are attacked. Most of the time your attacker will not have a cool quality knife unless he has stolen it. It will be rubish made in Pakistan or a kitchen knife or screw driver. He may be hyped up on drugs. If thats the case he will take a number of blows before he realises he has been damaged. Psycholigically a persons will to fight is disrupted when he goes to the ground. Quite often guys with fatal wounds still standing continue for some time. Guys with minor wounds knocked off their feet will concede defeat. Stab attacks are usually frenzied with multple wounds the result. Most attackers will stab at the body mass. So if attacked you must become enraged immediatly, not easy to do as your first thought is defence not offence. Its a human thing. Mick is right. Smash the face, puncture the brain and hope if you are hit that surgery will be able to fix it.
 
Hey, Mick -
I hate to come in sideways at this as I already posted on a different thread, but if you're talking about knife fighting, I'd be curious to know about training for such a thing. I'm thinkin' that just because I have a knife in my hand doesn't make me able to fight. Rumor has it you guys might offer said training. Any comment?
Buck
 
Hmmm...
I think everyone has kinda guessed that we are moving towards a training program...
More info will be ready soon.

m
 
Strange Mick did you notice your post counter.... Strider knife and gun course??? As always anything I can do to help ask away guys.
 
Would be an interesting course and would be interested to hear more !!
I agree in whole and in part to several individuals (namingly KaliSIG and Mick <sorry I'm 1/4 Philip>) Martial arts are excellent training tool and supplement to training. Key word here: TRAINING. You have to train and be familiar (with viloence). Or be real lucky. I prefer to train. In a nutshell I prefer slash and stab method with emphasis on the stab (also known as post .45/.223 method). Slashing (actual or feint) to the face/head region clearly takes the mind out of the fight. I agree with Mick, we used it as a training model...YES, you can even tell them what you are going to do...and you will still react the same. Its human instinct to survive (fighting/battle/war). And while I've experienced some fighting courtesy of my dumb-ass, some war courtesy of the Marine Corps, I've only had to pull a knife in a fight once in anger. It was a situation that started as a fist fight, which quickly went to the ground and grappling around. I insisted on fighting this guy with my bare hands (knowing all along I had a knife) until his buddy approached the two of us with a bat. I then drew my blade and let him have a feel in the rib area. He immediately released me and I was outta there. Two (2) guys with (1) one bat against one (1) guy with (1) knife = one (1) guy with knife and one (1) battered head.

No way to predict situations. Train for the worse and hope for the best. Train and try to be prepared mentally. Its really hard to keep focus on anything in a hostile situation. But even in hostile situations...you instinctively react (as Mick stated) the same way to fkin psycho icepick style offensive attacks. If you dont want to get hit throw the first punch. If you dont want to get cut dont get in a knife fight. But if you feel you will be getting cut...best to take it on the front side of your forearms, which happen to be your best defense you have in a knife attack.
Mick, keep us posted. Us out-o-towners will need some advanced warning.
 
okay guys just reviewed this thread and i thought i would ad my two cents worth. as rob simonich said have a gun and practice with it. in the tueller drill(21 foot drill) in my experience the ones who really get there eyes opened are the ones who don't practice with there handgun. if you carry a gun a good goal is to get it from concealment and first shot off in 1.5 sec. i have done it in 1.2 but i shoot approx. 500 rounds per week.. the second thing i wanted to say was that useing your forearms for protection doesn't really make allot of sense from a medical stand point all of the tendons and ligaments not to mention circulatory things that can get damaged. if you take a cut in your knife weilding forearm you are going to drop your knife. the other thing is blade length. you need a blade that is at least 9 1/2 inches if you think this is wrong handle a bagwell hells belle sometime a very lively knife.
 
tacmedic45, where and how do you carry your hells belle? Don't get me wrong, I'm all about big knives, but, once you go past a certain point I think your knife spends more time off you than on you.
I agree a big knife can do more damage in a shorter amount of time than a small one, if one knows how to employ it corectly.
Training, attitude and the weapon.
Train the way your going to fight. Pick a style or method that fits you, not what is "in" or looks cool.
Have the attitude that no matter what, how many or how big I'm going right through you, tear you a new ass on the way in and out, and look for the next target.
Pick your weapon that fits your training and attitude.
tacmedic45 I'm not badmouthing the HB but I don't feel the 9.5 inch rule is as set into concrete as Bill Bagwell has written about.
Take care. Dean
 
The first thing that I wanted to say was that from a medical standpoint...getting cut anywhere can damage whatever your cutting. Like I stated in my last post...if you dont want to get cut dont get into a knife fight. I guess you train with using your face or abdominal area as your defensive mechanism? What else is there, logical, that you would use in the event of a knife attack? The second thing I wanted to say is that a hells bells 9.5 inch knife is illegal to carry in most if not all of the upper 48 and impractical to carry with respect to the law. Hypothetically, a 5" GB will do just as much as damage as a 9.5" hell bell. Won't ask why you would carry an illegal knife but I guess I'm just trying to stay within the law.
PS: In the event of a knife attack use something other than your head to block with.
 
Dean c. and Q, Q especially I do not train to block with my face and abdomin. this started as a kind of what would you employ in a knife fight as far as tactics and knives. In a perfect world i would employ a barrett .50 at 800 yards. and as far as what knife true the belle is ilegal to carry in many states but last time i checked so was knife fighting. a shorter blade will work in a pinch but get ahold of a belle and practice with it you will be definately surprised at the chopping power and the speed of the blade and not to mention the #1 and #2 backcuts can be absolutely devastateing. Now with that being said my daily carry knives are a Strider MT and a crkt Carson M16.
 
I was being a bit sarcastic, nonetheless, in terms of training, I was always taught to fight with forearms foreward. There obviously are less veins/ligaments and vitals than the back (wrist) side. I wasnt suggesting sacraficing your forearms but you understand what I meant. It would be nice to carry a larger knife/blade, however; I am leaning towards training with my daily carry blade (Strider GB and/or CRKT Crawford Kasper). Folders are just easier to carry and in a sick kind of way, more socially acceptable. Nice finish though, you're exonerated for mentioning your Strider (you are in his forum :) )
Sorry Fred!
Q
 
Killing with a knife. Thats what Mick wanted this thread to be about, not so much the weapon or who made it, but how to end the others life prior to them ending yours.
Hell a screwdriver will work very nice. Or just ask any prison guard, sure they don't see too many high end knives on the inside.
Buddy of mine was at the post where we were holding the Cuban boat people down in Panama when a riot broke out and with in minutes the Cubans had with rocks and other hard objects smashed flat the aluminum legs and spreader bars of the hamocks they were given and soon had home made sharpened aluminum swords. F*cked up some of our guards before they brought it under control.
All this dancing and spinning with the blade won't work. Simple is better. Unless you train in jeans, boots or however you normally dress you are not going to be as nimble as you are in your workout clothes.
In the military you throw on 50 lbs of LBE/vest and your fine nimble mobility just went out the window, same with ERT/SRT type cops.
The fight, unless it is going by the term "sentry removal" won't be by your terms, it will probably start with both parties unarmed, or with weapons that are less effective than knives at bad breath range and whoever can draw and close with the other fastest will win.
The whole thing will be over in seconds.
This is where I know a med. knife (8-5 inches) works for you. Speed of presentaion and faster and less cumbersom in close quarters.
If I were meeting the man I was going to kill for a duel at the dueling oak a 13 inch bowie would probably be the heat.
But there is a differance between killing and dueling.
Enough rambling for one night. Later. Dean
 
Hell if we are talking dueling I'm coming with my 36inch kukri ceremonial sword or a 28inch katana.... but you are right dueling is not what we are talking about...the thought most people have not grasped at times here is that while most of us have trained or will train...or at the very least are buying knives of such quality and price that it is stupid not to use them and practice with them. ...but what some people here sometimes lose sight of is this; most BGs dont. Unless they are training for military or spec ops....of course then we are not talking bad guy we are talking opposition...as few BGs will be training with their knife...comfort and ease of use are my second best friends next to GB...There are always exceptions to the rule, but my guess is most bad guys are not profficient with thier weapons of choice...again another plus on my list for me...For my purposes I play with my GB at least one hour a day. Getting cut....well Mick has said you will get cut....choosing where to get cut hmmmm. Forearm? Abdomen? damn the choice sounds simple but it aint your choice unless you offer up that item instead of the deadlier -(is that a word)- of the two? that being said I will take the slash to the arm or even a poke through it as opposed to getting slashed across the abdomen or stabbed there...logically it makes a lot of sense at least to me.... but hey what do I know I am writing with about 2 hours of sleep in the last 48 so....

GOOD NITE GRACIEs
 
you'll find my stance on this hasn't changed. Brandon is accurate. Practice/Train. Confidence/Mindset. In a duel I'd personally take a PR24 over all knives and most swords. But were not talking dueling here.
In the unfortunate event of a knife fight/attack it is practical to use ones arms/forearms for defensive mechanisms. Not alot of other choices unless your holding a shield during your attack.
I'll say it again. If you dont want to get cut, dont get into a knife fight. Dont look forward to it, but I'd bet on it. Then have a back up plan.

Sorry Fred!
Q
 
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