What do you think about knives on school grounds?

[not2sharp]

....

Sorry friend there's no argument in the world that is going to make me think a child should be able to have a knife at school. If you can legally buy it that's a different story ,but kids no way.

So do you plan to cut their steak for them at the kitchen table until they turn 18? Would you trust your own kid with a pocket knife? Knives are tools and kids can benefit from learning how to use them. There are some people who, regardless of age, shouldn't have access to sharp objects, blunt objects or even other people. It is not an age thing. I would rather weed the crop of these feral savages than slow the progress of the entire population for the sake of political correctness. I grew up during a different cultural period. We had knives and guns in schools and we were free to talk about them without sanctions. Yet we had few if any problems at school. Today we prohibit these objects and even images and speech of these objects, but we have far more assaults and injuries. The problem isn't the objects or the kids. It is the adults who have forgotten, or who refuse, to run a safe and competent school system.

We put the kids in school to learn and we should make every effort to teach them. We should expose them to common objects and teach them how to use these tools safely; and, if in doing so we discover kids who refuse or are unable to learn, then these should be physically segregated from the population and given special attentions. There is no mystery about how to teach correctly, we have been doing it for centuries; we are just currently handicapped by a bunch of idealistic non-sense in an environment that rewards spineless and mindless administration (see Zero Tolerance).

If you really have an interest in making our schools safe again, then you should start by firing many of the present teachers and administrators and forcing change on our current educational culture. It is time to stop quivering at the sight of a butter knife in school. The real problem is that we no longer have anyone at our schools with the guts to admit that somebody's little Johnny doesn't belong there.

n2s

 

[Peter Hartwig]

If you are from my time(62 now) there was a holistic approach to raising kids to do right-from good knife ownership and gun habits to pledge allegiance to the flag, God(in most cases) to home care(most mothers were stay at home), censored tv(good won over evil) and control of students at school( you didn't get much out of line before there was a penalty) and I am sure much more that doesn't come immediately to mind. Much of this is missing today, and I don't think the schools can handle knives in the general population right now. I do encourage you to continue educating kids on knives, but one part of the education now is not to bring them to school. Schools are having a hard enough time with educating .

While political correctness may factor in the penalty faze, liability of the school is most likely the biggest factor in the rule. Couple that with low need for knife carry in the school education process, and a very low percent of want to be knife carriers(outside rural areas).

 

[RX-79G]

It doesn't make sense at all. In high school you are allowed to drive your car onto school grounds. So, we allow kids to have a 3000lb projectile that can travel 100mph on school property, but not a pocket knife. It doesn't make sense. When I was in high school, only 10 years ago, we have a shop class. We had access to arc/mig/tig/oxy-acet torches, with only one teacher supervising 30 kids. Miraculously nobody murdered anybody. We also, as I mentioned, had baseball offered as a class an an extra cirricular. Most kids had their own bat that they took with them

Kids are allowed to drive to school because those same kids are encouraged to take part in extra curriculars that don't work well with busing. Additionally, driving TO school is not driving IN school. It would be mighty distracting to have cars inside the classroom, but they are fine out in the parking lot.

So do you plan to cut their steak for them at the kitchen table until they turn 18?

Did your children have to wait until kindergarten to learn to use dining utensils? School is not for learning how to eat, keep clean or put on clothes. School is a place you send your kids to learn critical thinking skills in subjects that are often not easy for the average adult to convey to a young person. Things like history, mathematics, reading comprehension, biology. And this is done in an environment that is focused on learning those things.


There is a growing belief among American parents on both the left and right that school is actually just day care, and while the kids are at day care they should be parented like they would at home. That isn't what school is for. If you want your children to grow up to be useful people, do the parenting stuff at home (love, respect, basic life skills, entertainment) and expect them to concentrate on comprehending knowledge while in a school.


I would be hard pressed to imagine any class, except for an advanced vocational culinary course, where the use of as simple a tool as a knife would require the expertise of a professional educator to convey. Unless parents can't teach their kids to do things like make a bed or cut a steak, knives and bed sheets don't need to fight for the attention of students in a learning environment.


So I'm a little stumped why some parents take it upon themselves to lobby for more distractions in school. I guess they don't think the education part has any value at all.

 

[oguruma]

Kids are allowed to drive to school because those same kids are encouraged to take part in extra curriculars that don't work well with busing. Additionally, driving TO school is not driving IN school. It would be mighty distracting to have cars inside the classroom, but they are fine out in the parking lot.



Did your children have to wait until kindergarten to learn to use dining utensils? School is not for learning how to eat, keep clean or put on clothes. School is a place you send your kids to learn critical thinking skills in subjects that are often not easy for the average adult to convey to a young person. Things like history, mathematics, reading comprehension, biology. And this is done in an environment that is focused on learning those things.


There is a growing belief among American parents on both the left and right that school is actually just day care, and while the kids are at day care they should be parented like they would at home. That isn't what school is for. If you want your children to grow up to be useful people, do the parenting stuff at home (love, respect, basic life skills, entertainment) and expect them to concentrate on comprehending knowledge while in a school.


I would be hard pressed to imagine any class, except for an advanced vocational culinary course, where the use of as simple a tool as a knife would require the expertise of a professional educator to convey. Unless parents can't teach their kids to do things like make a bed or cut a steak, knives and bed sheets don't need to fight for the attention of students in a learning environment.


So I'm a little stumped why some parents take it upon themselves to lobby for more distractions in school. I guess they don't think the education part has any value at all.

No. Kids are allowed to drive to school. Being involved in extracurricular activities it not a prerequisite I have ever heard of. Either way the premise remains the same: it's moronic to trust a 16 year old with a 3000lb killing machine, which is FAR more dangerous than an assault rifle, but not trust that same kid with a pocket knife. Eventually that kid will reach the age of majority and will be disposed to voting for these ridiculous laws that impinge upon the rest of us.

If your kids are too retarded to control the impulse to hurt somebody else with a knife, then you better lock little Jimmy up somewhere, but definitely keep him away from the rest of the kids that have functioning cognitive abilities. I'm tired of my tax dollars subsidizing the lowest common denominator.



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[RX-79G]

No. Kids are allowed to drive to school. Being involved in extracurricular activities it not a prerequisite I have ever heard of. Either way the premise remains the same: it's moronic to trust a 16 year old with a 3000lb killing machine, which is FAR more dangerous than an assault rifle, but not trust that same kid with a pocket knife. Eventually that kid will reach the age of majority and will be disposed to voting for these ridiculous laws that impinge upon the rest of us.

If your kids are too retarded to control the impulse to hurt somebody else with a knife, then you better lock little Jimmy up somewhere, but definitely keep him away from the rest of the kids that have functioning cognitive abilities. I'm tired of my tax dollars subsidizing the lowest common denominator.



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The premise of this thread is what goes INSIDE the school. Cars and knives don't go inside the school, because they have nothing to do with school.

Kids are allowed to drive outside of school. Kids are also allowed to use firearms and knives - outside of school. You're not really connecting the dots what the function of a knife in school is to educating children. Nor are you articulating why a knife might be so important to activities immediately preceeding or following school that it must come to school with the kid.


Whether knives are dangerous or distractions isn't really an item of debate. To some kids, anything can be dangerous and distracting, and other kids nothing is.


Even back in the '80s, there was a knife incident in my otherwise tranquil high school. One of the heavy metal kids, who was continually bullied for smoking at school by a huge football player, pulled out a knife when he had enough. The jock knocked the knife out of his hand and the knife kid got suspended (not expelled). This in a suburban school with the highest SAT scores in the state and no real poverty.


As far as why our kids are distracted, have autism numbers climbing like gangbusters, low IQs, obesity and emotional problems, I think you can blame lots of different factors, but the absurdly bad diets parents AND schools feed children is such an easy and obvious starting point that you don't even have to start in on politics.

Want to champion something to improve local schools? Get all the sugar, processed flour and transfats out of the cafeteria. Kids didn't ruin themselves - they've had a lot of help.

 

[Jens Schuetz]

That killing machine, the car, isn't in their pockets. They couldn't pull it out and do weird stuff during that few minutes they are angry for some reason or the other.
It takes much more to premeditated murder somebody with a car after school, many hours after an incident than stabbing somebody right there and then in a rage in front of your locker for example.
After all most people are murdered and injured with what's at hand that very moment. Kitchen knives in their homes for example. Know a guy who got stabbed with a scissor of all things. :-O
The less dangerous things are at hand in these situations, in school, the better.

Of course hypothetically it would be even better to identify unstable kids and not restrict tools. Is that possible?

 

[stabman]

Just bans kids from school.
No kids at school means that no kids can stab, shoot or punch each other.
It will make schools so safe that there won't even be any skinned knees!
No bullying either...

Yep, I just solved the whole problem. :thumbup:
You're welcome.

 

[Faiaoga]

Unfortunately, our social and political climate in the USA is such that a no knives policy is probably necessary. As a teacher, I see no reason to allow students to have knives in school, allowing knives is only asking for trouble. It is unfortunate that our modern society cannot seem o understand that misuse of a knife is the problem, not the3 possession of a cutting tool on campus or on the school bus - but common sense and tolerance seem to be lacking.

I have taught overseas where students were told to bring their machetes to school for work days cleaning up the campus, but that society viewed knives as tools and did not have a tradition of carrying belt knives or pocket knives. In the USA today, students look for excuses to shout "He's got a knife" in order to disrupt a class and create a diversion. The real problem seems to the "zero tolerance" laws and administrators who fear using common sense when enforcing regulations.

I support a policy of not allowing knives on campus, but also removing pointless enforcement of zero tolerance laws. Adults, especially teachers, should be able to carry a pocket knife for utility use. If a student inadvertently brings a knife to school, the student should be able to bring the knife to the school office and have a parent retrieve it without involving police, politicians and law courts.

 

[Jens Schuetz]

Just bans kids from school.
No kids at school means that no kids can stab, shoot or punch each other.
It will make schools so safe that there won't even be any skinned knees!
No bullying either...

Yep, I just solved the whole problem.[emoji106]You're welcome.

You solved much more. It would save the tax payers lots of money.

Also some stay at home dads and moms are more qualified, motivated and invested and willing to teach their own little guys. You should see what they can learn when the teachers attention isn't divided among 30 kids. My daughter isn't doing 4th grade math in 1st grade because she is special. It's just that I taught her 3 days a week instead of preschool. Now it's a battle in public kindergarten and and 1st grade to stay at that level. I gave up on improving already since she's trapped in school until 3pm and there's only so much you can do the rest of the day during the more tired hours.
Homeschooling would be great but CA doesn't make it easy. Oh and back to topic. Being a dad teaching her, she's also pretty good at sport and knows how to handle her Kukri and other cool stuff.

 

[RX-79G]

It makes you wonder why schools were ever started back in the days when everyone worked from home.

 

[Jens Schuetz]

It makes you wonder why schools were ever started back in the days when everyone worked from home.

True haha. If you work from home, when will you teach? Also not everybody who stays at home and could teach would have the educational background or be up to date on science.
If my grandparents would have taught me instead of school uh oh. Due to the war they missed a lot of school and couldn't swim for example. They probably could have taught me other things though not really relevant when applying for jobs for example. Maybe if totally motivated they could have learned along with me. My dad would have been a pretty cool teacher but lots of work so he couldn't even if he'd like to.
My main point is a parent who can afford to do it will likely do better and not waste time on crowd control and not take care that others aren't left behind.
I'm not American thus cant compare how it was 20 years ago. But I talked to a kids doctor from an on average less privileged part of society and he also complained how little the young ones learn these days. He had to put his kids in private school and is still not happy with it. He blames it on no child left behind. Now everybody is left behind but nobody has to feel bad anymore. Crazy world. ;-)

Edit:
Luckily in America there are many opportunities parallel to schools and who can afford to follow them increases his chances for scholarships and better universities.

In my home country on the other hand general education might be a tad better however there's no almost no possibility to rise above the masses though one doesn't need to since all the universities are pretty much the same as well.

 

[Spartan00]

No. Kids are allowed to drive to school. Being involved in extracurricular activities it not a prerequisite I have ever heard of. Either way the premise remains the same: it's moronic to trust a 16 year old with a 3000lb killing machine, which is FAR more dangerous than an assault rifle, but not trust that same kid with a pocket knife. Eventually that kid will reach the age of majority and will be disposed to voting for these ridiculous laws that impinge upon the rest of us.

If your kids are too retarded to control the impulse to hurt somebody else with a knife, then you better lock little Jimmy up somewhere, but definitely keep him away from the rest of the kids that have functioning cognitive abilities. I'm tired of my tax dollars subsidizing the lowest common denominator.



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Retarded has nothing to do with it . I spent a few years working with teens and kids in their early teens . Some were mentally disabled some were there because they had gotten into trouble and we're sentenced there .

Until you have walked a mile in a child's shoes that has a disability it may be best not to make statements saying they are too retarded to control themselves .

FWIW all the attempted suicides or attempts to harm themselves in the facility i worked at were with sharp objects. From trying to cut their wrist or stab themselves woth scissors ,to trying to break a window to get the glass to pencils and pens. Never saw a kid gonaftwr themselves or anybody else with a blunt object . It was always something sharp or pointy wit an attempt to cut or stab . Now I don't have a degree or anything but it was a pattern

A lot of it has to do with the parents ,some are born that way . Whatever the case is my kid shouldn't haft to be at risk . FWIW I'm talking younger kids like too young to drive

 

[gadgetgeek]

Not a problem that is solvable. No disrespect to you older folks, but we've moved so fast as a culture that the realities that kids in school face are nothing like what you or I (only 30) faced. All of the problems have been mentioned, not one is a single factor, but they all play a part. Some of you were taught how to be adults by the time you were 10-12-14, but you had a purpose. These kids have all the adult problems with none of the background and skills to understand them. And I suspect that even though you felt really adult getting to do some things (hunting on your own, driving early) the reality is an adult set those situations up for success. Or at least prevent most of the stupidity. You might have been taught budgeting because your family needed to be careful with funds. Now all kids know is that money is scary and makes mom and dad yell. The time is filled up by far more things.

That being said, I work with kids every week that would never have gone to school were they my age, and would have been in "care homes" were they born 20 years before me. Kids that are learning how to adapt themselves to the world because it refuses to adapt to them. ADHD kids who are too creative for their own good, who when I was in school were drop-outs because life was more interesting, and Spectrum kids who would either stay at home behind mom's skirts, or might find a spot that fit their particular interest set. We all know that old guy who knows everything about every john deere from before 1980. If they were lucky that is. If not they ended up in an asylum.

Point is, there's no argument. School as it is, is better for more kids than its ever been, not as great in some ways. But that's life. You want to fix schools, go ahead, fix'em. fix any other part of society. Anything else is just thinking about the good old days, and wishing the world hadn't changed. That doesn't get us anywhere. If you find, create, discover an environment, group, school where its appropriate for your kid and others to carry knives, then that's pretty awesome, and a goal I think is worth working toward. I'd love it if more kids got to do more. Because that's the world I want to live in.

 

[Peter Hartwig]

Just for a little clarity(for those viewing this as ancient history, long before their time)I think when most of us old timers refer to carrying pocket knives in school, we are referring to slip joints(Barlows, Imperials, Swiss Army, Case & Buck). There was nothing tactical about the knives I carried in the 60's. Knives were viewed as tools, and they were very needed tools for the kids of the small farmers(not that the knife fight wasn't yet invented, just more of a hood and drunken adult event). About mid 70's I found the lock back and carried a small Gerber. The knives of this period were also clipless(at least all mine were). I can't remember when the liner lock became popular, but the frame lock is fairly new(early ones 90's). So not only have the rules & attitudes changed, but so have the knives. Not that the slip joint isn't still a nice knife, but my guess would be that the young would gravitate to the more tactical.
In the 60's most men carried a knife of some sort(though it may not have been very big at all) & a large number of woman carried a small knife in their purse.

So ends your history lesson for today
Maybe tomorrow I will cover the demise of sword carry in public places-times change

 

[Spartan00]

I'm in my 30s .FWIW

 

[stabman]

Not a problem that is solvable. No disrespect to you older folks, but we've moved so fast as a culture that the realities that kids in school face are nothing like what you or I (only 30) faced.

Sure they are.
We had bullying, pregnant teens, full-on junkies, and suicides.
Not having internet didn't stop people from passing around (and copying) naked photos of girls, or showing pics of their junk.

"Oh, my problems are SO NEW that you just wouldn't understand! My life is hard!!!" is the eternal cry of the teenager.

 

[Peter Hartwig]

Sure they are.


"Oh, my problems are SO NEW that you just wouldn't understand! My life is hard!!!" is the eternal cry of the teenager.

LOL-so true. Though I must say it has gotten much easier for me to solve lifes problems(as well as see them coming) with 45++ years of mistakes to reflect on.

 

[glistam]

Just for a little clarity(for those viewing this as ancient history, long before their time)I think when most of us old timers refer to carrying pocket knives in school, we are referring to slip joints(Barlows, Imperials, Swiss Army, Case & Buck). There was nothing tactical about the knives I carried in the 60's. Knives were viewed as tools, and they were very needed tools for the kids of the small farmers(not that the knife fight wasn't yet invented, just more of a hood and drunken adult event). About mid 70's I found the lock back and carried a small Gerber. The knives of this period were also clipless(at least all mine were). I can't remember when the liner lock became popular, but the frame lock is fairly new(early ones 90's). So not only have the rules & attitudes changed, but so have the knives. Not that the slip joint isn't still a nice knife, but my guess would be that the young would gravitate to the more tactical.
In the 60's most men carried a knife of some sort(though it may not have been very big at all) & a large number of woman carried a small knife in their purse.

So ends your history lesson for today
Maybe tomorrow I will cover the demise of sword carry in public places-times change

This is true, however when I've done research into knife-related assaults and murders, the knife is almost always a kitchen knife or a slipjoint. Come to think of it, I have yet to encounter a murder or malicious wounding done with any kind of tactical knife.

Also for what it's worth, I see a few of you saying how it was all good and safe "back in the day" when everyone was carrying knives to school, I was just flipping through the Bureau of Justice Statistics. The stats don't really support that perception. For example, there were 2,424 edge-weapon murders in 1970. There were 1,589 in 2012. The number has been steadily declining for more than 25 years. This just a personal peeve of mine that so many people present their perceptions and personal experiences as though they are statistically significant conclusions. That kind of thinking is what got switchblades banned.

 

[not2sharp]

Sure they are.
We had bullying, pregnant teens, full-on junkies, and suicides.
Not having internet didn't stop people from passing around (and copying) naked photos of girls, or showing pics of their junk.

"Oh, my problems are SO NEW that you just wouldn't understand! My life is hard!!!" is the eternal cry of the teenager.

I also remember that we had corporal punishment. Quite a few teachers kept well equipped racks with varying sizes of paddles, and it wasn't unusual to go home at the end of the day with a marked inability too sit down. But, you would try anyway, because if your parent found out they would make sure that you wouldn't be able to sit for a week. Back then, kids were not encourage to act out or be themselves; they were in school to learn and there was a clear connection between discipline, good grades and fufilling employment. It can be hard for people to stay focused when their future holds a wellfare check or career as a french fry maker at a fast food joint. We were more disciplined and we had good reason to be.

n2s

 

[Peter Hartwig]

I also remember that we had corporal punishment. Quite a few teachers kept well equipped racks with varying sizes of paddles, and it wasn't unusual to go home at the end of the day with a marked inability too sit down. But, you would try anyway, because if your parent found out they would make sure that you wouldn't be able to sit for a week. Back then, kids were not encourage to act out or be themselves; they were in school to learn and there was a clear connection between discipline, good grades and fufilling employment. It can be hard for people to stay focused when their future holds a wellfare check or career as a french fry maker at a fast food joint. We were more disciplined and we had good reason to be.

n2s

I don't know about teachers, but the vice principal sure kept busy, or at least that is what good little boys like me heard