What's the difference?

[tinfoil hat timmy]

4V is tough, 3V is tougher
3V (delta) has good edge stability, 4V (optimized) is even better
3V has good wear resistance, 4V is better
3V has good corrosion resistance, 4V does not
Knives made in Delta 3V are expensive, knives made in optimized 4V are very expensive.

Delta 3V is a better all-around knife steel for most people, but 4V works well in high performance cutting applications where you're willing to trade some toughness wiggle room and corrosion resistance for the best edge durability and very good wear resistance. Optimized 4V will out cut Delta 3V, though we've managed to break a few in rough testing and it does rust.

All else being equal, you can cut through a nail with optimized 4V with less edge damage than Delta 3V, and that is saying something. It is worth pointing out that industry standard heat treat 4V does not give this performance (we tested it and variations of it) so any prior experience someone may have with 4V may not be applicable.

Most people are going to prefer Delta 3V due to the larger margin for error in rough use and easier maintenance, but for hard core knife nuts optimized 4V is a very interesting material. I would take 4V into a cutting competition and 3V into a war zone.

THIS IS EXACTLY what I was looking for Nathan. I hope the new machining center isn't giving you too many headaches during initial setup.

There are a lot of characters here at the forums that think they know everything there is to know about knives, blades and steel; they need to stop posting for a solid 4-6 months while they read every single one of Nathan Carothers' posts - they might actually learn something for once.

This is a fact. Nathan is a smart fellow, and I learned a few things from him... Such as that the 3v used in his blades actually HARDER than the carbide used to Mill out a blank. I didn't understand this at first, but Nathan just has a way of simplifying things so even I can understand them.

That's no easy thing btw.

Keep up the good work Nathan!

 

[Survivorman23]

I owned two Busse's.. was not impressed with the steel at all. ( For the price) Most of the hype about them comes from the fan boys. I dont remember who said it, but a long time ago, someone on here on bladeforums said, that in reality, as a knife (cutting slicing, etc..) they perform relatively crappy (without you putting a diff edge with your $400 sharpening system, which is what people end up doing with them)

Based on my experience this is due to the very large amount of steel behind the edge, and then the edge itself sharpened at an obtuse angle. I have seen several Busse's that have been sharpened at a lower angle and suddenly they do not perform any better than any other $150 plus knife. The main difference is when the knife is batoned with, and it starts bending a lot, it will spring back to true.

Going back to the middle part, not too long ago I pointed out that Italian Rasul knife, in vanadis 23? I think, chopping thru nails and coming out of it, with barely a scratch. Immediately, I got a load of responses saying the knife may be good at chopping nails, but it is crappy at being a knife.

But when I point that out about busse's, people get on my ass.. double standard is amazing. Its not a big deal, once again, its just shows the fanboyism.

Anyway.. to the second sentence at the top...

I am not bashing Busse, you can spend your money however you want, and by no means am I saying that they are crap, but in reality, the performance superiority compared to other knives such as Esee line up, or a few other knives, is only about 10%.. in reality

When sharpened at 18 or 20 degrees, they perform about the same as an Esee junglas.. The whole deal about people screwing up the heat treat is bull.

I have used 3v before, even without the delta treatment, from my experience it holds a better edge.. although Infi is easier to sharpen.

Believe it or not.. over the years, Ive become a great fan of 5160 and even A2.. 5160 if polished to mirror, actually has pretty good stain resistance, as long as you wipe it off within a couple of hours of usage.. it holds an edge about 10% less than 3v, or Infi, buttttt it is a breeze to sharpen.. same goes for A2.

The bottom line is, you have to decide whether or not you think 10% better performance is worth $400.. I dont even have that much of a problem with a sub $400 knife, as much as I do with the ones going for $1000.

10 inch blade for a 10% better performance, with burl something handles does not equal $1000 knife, so not worth it by a long shot for me..

There are not that many.. but about 3 knife makers on here, that have become my fav.. that use burl all the time.. and sell knives for sub $220 (speaking of the nice handles vs. cost) so the fact that you used burl doesnt justify the $500 hike up, $500 for the blade. Then on top of that they dont even come with a sheath.

Dont bother preaching to me about how a knife maker can charge whatever he wants cause he became a brand name.. or he thinks he is..My mind works on logic.. not fanboyism.. Ive heard it before

$100 worth of steel, plus $60 handles doesnt equal $1200 knife..

Oh, and as far as steel, Nathans is better IMO.. Survive knives is great too. As far as non 3v.. I have about 3-4 knife makers on here that I like, some of them being Milan mozolic, Kelsey creek knife works, Jelio, and maybe a few others..

Great price/value vs steel/performance plus pretty handles ratio

 

[CataD]

I owned two Busse s.. was not impressed with the steel at all. Most of the hype about them comes from the fan boys. I dont remember who said it, but a long time ago, someone on here said, that in reality, as a knife,(cutting clicing,etc..) they perform worse than others, as a tough batoner they are great.

Based on my experience this is due to the very large amount of steel behing the edge, and then the edge itself sharpened at an obtuse angle. I have seen several that have sharpened at a lower angle and suddenly they do not perform astronomically anymore. Then everyone gets on the persons ass for sharpening it at high heat,etc.. bla bla bla

Going back to the middle part, not too long ago I pointed out a Rasul something knife chopping thru nails and it being awesome. Then I got a load of repsonses saying the knife may be good at chopping nails, but it crappy at being a knife

But when I point that out about busse's people get on my ass.. double standard is amazing

Anyway.. to the second sentece at the top...

I am not bashing Busse, and by no means am I saying that they are crap, but in reality, the performance superiority compared to other knives such as Esee line up, or a bunch of others, is only about 10%.. in reality

When sharpened at 18 or 20 degrees, they perform about the same as an Esee junglas.. that high heat bull is just that..

I have used 3v and even without the delta treatment, it hold a better edge.. although Ingi is easier to sharpen

Believe it or not.. over the years, Ive become a great fan of 5160 and even A2.. 5160 if polished to mirror, actually has pretty good stain resistance, as long as you wipe it off within a couple of hours of usage.. it holds an edge about 10% less than 3v, or some others, buttttt it is a breeze to sharpen.. same goes for A2

The bottom line is whether or not you think 10% better performance is worth $400.. I dont even have that much of a problem with the tglb.. as much as I do with the ones going for $1000

10 inch blade for a 10% better performance, with burl something handles.. not worth it by a long shot for me.. there are not that many.. but about 3 knife makers on here, that have become my fav.. that use burl all the time.. and sell knives for sub $220(speaking of the nice handles vs. cost) so the fact that you used burl doesnt justify the $500 hike up

Dont bother preaching to me about how a knife maker can charge whatever he wants cause hes became a brand name.. or he thinks he is..My mind works on logic.. not fanboyism.. Ive heard it before

$100 worth of steel, plus $60 handles doesnt equal $1200 knife..

I don't know, Survivorman23... Nathan himself called Infi 'when it comes to rough use, Infi is the Gold Standard'. So maybe, if you don't listen to fanboys, you should listen to Nathan - you are in his sub-forum after all.

Nathan's quote comes from his Youtube clip:

Hope this helps a bit.

Cheers,
C.

 

[Survivorman23]

Im subscribed to his yt channel.. Ive watched many videos from many makers.. and even more users.. Ive had more than one knife over the years.. starting at $12 pakistani mystery shit to $500 customs

There is a big diff. between pakistani vs. $400 any knife.. but little diff. between esee junglas vs. infi.. this is what Im saying.. Again.. if you want to spend $1000 on a knife that only performs 10% better.. more power to you.. I just like voicing my opinion for the sake of others like me.. who work very hard to save up $400.. I dont make $400 in an hour.. It takes me months.. assuming I dont have car trouble or getting sick, or someone in my family getting sick..

If you are a working class man, you will not see much diff. between a $500 knife and an Esse junglas.. is what im saying. Now thanks to fanboyism.. resale value on the two are not comparable..

Heres an Esse vid too..

5160

There was a guy who makes his own knives out of 1095 nicely heat treated by Peters, chopping through nails, came out with little damage.. cant find it now..

 

[CataD]

Cool, so you knew that Nathan was taking Infi (and maybe other steels) as a benchmark when he was developing his new Delta Protocol..
Personally, I hate knives/steels that rust if you just look at them 'the wrong way'... So, that's why I like Nathan's/S!K's/DanK's D3V and Infi - not mentioning stainless here.
However, I really don't like discussions about prices... What does a Bugatti Veyron ($2 million) do, that a Corolla (insert random decent priced car) doesn't? ETA: < this last sentence was sarcastic, for those who missed it. Everyone is free to buy what they like and they can afford; value is subjective!

Cheers,
C.

 

[Lorien]

I think that the differences in performance between any given known steels- with quality heat treatment- is lost on a lot of cutlery enthusiasts, and that many folks get caught up in the mental masturbation of chemical ingredients and marketing hype. I count myself among them from time to time. Usually when Nate and I talk about this stuff, well let's get real- when Nate talks to me about this stuff- I feel like a 3rd grader. He's such a high level steel nerd that I could never hope to keep up with him. I just hope that some of it finds its way into my brain by osmosis

some of the best performers I've experienced are simple carbon steels made in the traditional method, and some of the worst performers I've used are complex steels made using the new methods. And vice versa. Bottom line is, if your knife maker cares about the performance of the steel they use, (design aside) you will very likely have yourself a great knife regardless of what they use

Wrt Busse, I picked up a BWM a little while ago and found it pretty unusable due to the overabundance of steel left after the primary bevel was applied. My buddy, Stuart, has reground the primary for me, and I'm looking forward to testing the aspects of INFI that make it so desirable and measuring it against the 3V that I've been so spoiled by

 

[cold one]

I'm looking forward to testing the aspects of INFI that make it so desirable and measuring it against the 3V that I've been so spoiled by

I'm looking forward to the results of these tests.

 

[Survivorman23]

"Bottom line is, if your knife maker cares about the performance of the steel they use, (design aside) you will very likely have yourself a great knife regardless of what they use".

Yes, this is good line..

I remember of one of the custom knife makers on here chopping nails with a very narrow not very thick /not sure about the amount of steel behind the edge, PIG STICKER.. I think it was either W2 or W5 steel, with a hammer.. and the edge came out really great after..

I was waiting for the thing to snap in half.. give the fact that the primariy grind but also the narrowness of the blade, were so small.. You dont hear about W2 very often when people talk about

But clearly, this was the case of a maker knowing his heat treat really well.

Cant remember the name of the guy tough..

Although I did remember another maker I like for the price vs value, his name is Philip Patton..

oh, and Nathan too. in case thats not obvious yet..

 

[Casinostocks]

... I picked up a BWM a little while ago...

Lorien, I don't have anything to add to the steel vs steel conversation, but is that Canadian for BMW or do you mean a BMW pick up? Wut?!

 

[Lorien]

I was trying to be cool like those hog dudes with their acronyms- it's Bushwhacker Mistress

 

[CataD]

I thought I'd add some pics . Lorien, thank you for the awesome designs!




Cheers,
C.

 

[Casinostocks]

Lorien, that acronym sounds too kinky

 

[Nathan the Machinist]

Wow, the drama that surrounds the capabilities of high end knives and high end steels...

Describing the capabilities of high end metallurgy to some folks I imagine describing aircraft to ancient humans:

Me: "we have aircraft that can fly among the clouds"
Ancient human: "wow, that's really amazing, I can hardly believe that's even possible"
Me: "We've actually sent people all the way to the moon"
Ancient human: "wow, that's approximately equally amazing to me. I assume you can also fly to all the planets and stars too then?"
Me: "Well no, we can't actually do that, but flying to the moon is a really big deal"
Ancient human: "holy crap, I can also hardly believe this hilariousness cat video on your phone!"

Sometimes people have trouble with scale.

 

[Lorien]

lolz!

 

[TommyGun56]

I have heard these arguments for years! What it really boils down to nowdays is the fact everybody THINKS their knives are the best because they own them! If you don't like Busse and are not happy with their performance, Simply do not BUY THEM! Whenever a new pistol comes out what do they always compare it to? A GLOCK! Wonder Why?
Most of the Busse's I Have purchased do in fact need some work to optimize their performance, That's just the way it is. The reason I am drawn to Nathan's knives are the toughness and edge holding capabilities mostly of D3V. I also enjoy the fact he constantly strives to educate his buyers on the Strengths and weaknesses (Pro's and Con's) of each steel offered, along with his active involvement within his Thread! There are advantages and Disadvantages to both Steels-PERIOD! I will continue to Buy both Knifes {Busse and Nathan's}! I like them Both
By the Way here is a link to the warranty on those $160 Dollar Busse's-Cheers!!
http://www.bussecombat.com/our-guarantee/

 

[PeteyTwoPointOne]

EXACTLY ^^^^...

use YOUR money the way YOU want to!

So many of these "my bargain blade breaks down cardboard boxes as well as <or better> than your blade" guys always around preaching these sermons.

One common theme in all their diatribe is the clearly stated <or subtly implied> mantra of "You've wasted your money!"

Another undercurrent running thru these types of posts is "You're a blind FANBOY...so you're biased!"

 

[on_the_edge]

Wow, the drama that surrounds the capabilities of high end knives and high end steels...

Describing the capabilities of high end metallurgy to some folks I imagine describing aircraft to ancient humans:

Me: "we have aircraft that can fly among the clouds"
Ancient human: "wow, that's really amazing, I can hardly believe that's even possible"
Me: "We've actually sent people all the way to the moon"
Ancient human: "wow, that's approximately equally amazing to me. I assume you can also fly to all the planets and stars too then?"
Me: "Well no, we can't actually do that, but flying to the moon is a really big deal"
Ancient human: "holy crap, I can also hardly believe this hilariousness cat video on your phone!"

Sometimes people have trouble with scale.

+1 on the drama, Nathan. If not steel, it would be something else.

BTW, I thought the moonshot video was done in a studio and the whole thing was made up to demoralize the Russians that we beat them to the moon!!!

Just kidding!!! LOL!

 

[Casinostocks]

Fellas, best to not get dragged into this downward spiraling vortex of arguing back and forth about the notion of perceived value vs actual value, and the dreaded topic of "fanboyism". SM23 has an uncanny knack of bringing his aforementioned prejudices of certain knives and their makers in almost every one of his contributions which I've seen on here. Nothing wrong with conveying opinions and one's own experiences but not to the extend of deriding others and their choices as the core essence of one's own . Constantly belittling fellow forumites is just a very unsophisticated from of self-aggrandizement.

I am on here to learn from my favorite fixed blade manufacturer to this date and to also learn from my peers. Yes, I do often horseplay on here, at times too often, for fun and banter with lots of my forumites but I try to not lose sight of being respectful to Nathan's "house" within Blade Forums. Just for full disclosure, I don't own any Busse products, never had owned any and I have no inclination to acquire or own one down the road. However I do know that many, many of my compadres on here are also owners of Busse knives and Busse's other offshoots, hence the more reason to stay out of head-to-head comparisons so to not come across as an uninformed yet extremely opinionated rube. When the Man of the House states publicly that he is also a fan and he breaks down the characteristic differences, that really ought to be the nexus of your civilized discourse on his subforum. The rest can move to PM and email where no one else cares but the two who wish to waste their precious time!

 

[Survivorman23]

EXACTLY ^^^^...

use YOUR money the way YOU want to!

So many of these "my bargain blade breaks down cardboard boxes as well as <or better> than your blade" guys always around preaching these sermons" < I was not talking about bargain.. $100 Becker is not a bargain for people who make less than $30k a year like me

One common theme in all their diatribe is the clearly stated <or subtly implied> mantra of "You've wasted your money!"<< Not wasted, but there is not need for you to spend $600 in order to get a knife that can baton, and even bend a lot without snapping. Again.. this is ME trying to HELP working class like me.. not "platinum members"

Another undercurrent running thru these types of posts is "You're a blind FANBOY...so you're biased!"

< Which you clearlyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy are.. fucking hell

 

[Nathan the Machinist]

^ easy there Survivorman, chill.

I appreciate that we have passion for the subject matter, but we need to take care to remain respectful of others. From my point of view you're heating up more than the others and taking things back a step is in your court. Communicating on the internet is fraught with potential misunderstandings. If in doubt, bite your tongue. If not in doubt, think again.