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Bad Survive! Deserves A Permanent Post In The Hall Of Shame
- Thread starter ncrockclimb
- Start date
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- Nov 20, 2014
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Wow! That is actually one of the first reports I've heard of S!K Actually refunding a customer. Although there are numerous accounts of people getting their money back through banks/PayPal/credit card, I can't remember how many years it's been since I've seen a report of S!K actually processing a refund on their own. I am happy for you, ffcol.
For others that are trying to get refunds, it might be helpful if you explain the exact steps you took to make S!K give you a refund.
Here’s the biggest piece of advice I can give current customers…
If you purchased an EDC-4 at LEAST three weeks ago and haven’t received a notification that the USPS has your item in their possession (not that a label has been created, but that the USPS actually HAS your item), I would HIGHLY recommend you put in for a refund through PayPal or your credit card now, while you can easily recover your funds.
The EDC-4 is claimed to be “in-stock” with a time until shipment set at 3 - 15 business days.
More to come on Monday.
If you purchased an EDC-4 at LEAST three weeks ago and haven’t received a notification that the USPS has your item in their possession (not that a label has been created, but that the USPS actually HAS your item), I would HIGHLY recommend you put in for a refund through PayPal or your credit card now, while you can easily recover your funds.
The EDC-4 is claimed to be “in-stock” with a time until shipment set at 3 - 15 business days.
More to come on Monday.
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... you're killin me. Do you gave inside information somehow?
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Nah, he's taking lessons from Guy and only doling out the goods in extremely small batches...if at all. Next he's gonna start a YouTube channel.
(Sorry, Brian. It was an easy shot...I had to take it. And now back to your regular programming.
)
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Here is a word salad from Guy in the comments of the video he posted today:
"Anything that is currently available for ordering will ship in a reasonable amount of time. We are getting on top of the rest of our backlog, which was not intentional, but the result of some issues that were outside of our control. We have gotten those things resolved and are moving forward in a very productive manner."
Notice how there are no dates actual time commitments (who knows what a "reasonable amount of time" means to Guy). He also makes a point of blaming "issues that were outside of our control."
He is doing the same thing he has been doing for years.
"Anything that is currently available for ordering will ship in a reasonable amount of time. We are getting on top of the rest of our backlog, which was not intentional, but the result of some issues that were outside of our control. We have gotten those things resolved and are moving forward in a very productive manner."
Notice how there are no dates actual time commitments (who knows what a "reasonable amount of time" means to Guy). He also makes a point of blaming "issues that were outside of our control."
He is doing the same thing he has been doing for years.
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Haha, not at all. I just have a little bit of a better understanding of how the payment systems work, now that I've been taking different payments for awhile.
Shockingly, the USPS just took possession of the final package, so I can spill the beans now. I was holding back from saying anything to prevent thread watchers from Survive piecing together identities.
Now how to explain....
First, the way PayPal and credit card disputes and chargebacks work when you are accepting payments. Every time a dispute is escalated against Survive! on PayPal, they are charged $15. If a PayPal chargeback occurs they are charged $20. If their dispute rate for the month goes above 1.5%, they are charged $30 a pop. Get a few more, and you're no longer able to take PayPal payments. With credit card companies, the penalties are MUCH more severe. For example, with Visa, we're talking $35 a pop until your chargeback rate goes above .75%. From there it usually goes to around $50 for each chargeback. Three months of that and it goes to $100 per chargeback PLUS a $25,000 review fee if you want to continue taking Visa payments.
Two friends and I each purchased an "in-stock" EDC-4 using PayPal Pay Later. I know, I know. We FULLY expected these not to ship. The Survive! website claims they are shipped within 3 - 15 business days. This Friday would have been 15 business days. The USPS has had the tracking numbers, but not the packages since last week. We figured the tracking numbers were provided as an attempt to show they were "shipped" within 15 days. The USPS took possession of all the packages today and yesterday. Had the USPS not had the packages in their possession by Friday, we would have all put in disputes through PayPal. It doesn't take a whole lot to lose access to PayPal, and it's more or less a death knell if you do. We used PayPal Pay Later for a couple of reasons. It has the highest fees as a seller, and if you are in high volume chargeback tier, they hold your funds for about a week. I also figured PayPal was their most important payment processor.
Well, all three knives have now shipped. Color me shocked.
On to step two I suppose.
When the knives arrive they will be sent to Atlas Testing to check the steel composition to ensure they are actually K890, Elmax, and M390. With the frequent changes of steel, and the recent "firings" from other distributors, I'm curious to see if the steel is what they say it is.
From there, they will be given away. The first is being given to someone on Reddit who has been waiting three years, and has been unable to receive a refund. The second to a YouTuber in a similar situation. And the third is being given away here... I just need to find someone who fits the parameters I described in my previous post. Surprisingly, no one has contacted me yet.
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I'll be interested to see what Atlas Testing says...
Interesting. So getting a refund from S!K through PayPal or the bank is better (worse for S!K) than if S!K had just issued the refund themselves. So the question is why would S!K force their victims into doing that to cost S!K more money? If Guy would just give refunds, it would save S!K money and be more consumer friendly (possibly gaining some good will). Things that make you go hmmm...
Way, way worse. Now keep in mind, that’s only if the dispute is escalated. If Survive responds to the PayPal dispute and issues a refund right away, they can avoid the fee. If they ignore it, or it gets escalated, that’s when the fees/trouble starts.
The problem with the escalation/dispute process is that is that must be done within 120 days for most credit cards, and 180 days with PayPal. With a ~21 day shipping window on “in stock” items, that leaves a pretty small window. With knives that aren’t in stock, you’re basically out of luck since it will likely be past the 120 - 180 day window by the time you realize you’ve been had.
If I had to guess, I would think the business depends on people hoping their knife will eventually ship and end up passing the dispute deadline.
If everyone was only purchase “in-stock” knives, and put in for a dispute as soon as the 15 business days had passed, I imagine they’d fold pretty quickly…. Or maybe not, I’m still kind of in shock that the knives we ordered have shipped.
Ok, that is probably why they don't fight disputes (that I know of); don't want the extra fee. I placed my order on Aug 18, 2023. Found this thread Jan 2024 and realized the real situation. I didn't get my credit card dispute submitted until Feb 21, 2024 (after requesting a refund from S!K and getting delay tactics). My bank says 60 days for disputes, but I called them and explained, and they processed the dispute (which was even outside the 120 days you mention).
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To be honest, I'm not. They've clearly been meeting some minimal threshold of deliveries to keep themselves going.
I would have hoped that they would have missed the deadline, however, because I think that's a better representation of what they do.
I'm also not going to be shocked when the testing comes back to confirm the blades are the steels they say they are.
I believe Guy's playing things super close to the vest right now, and if he was to do something deliberately misleading, this wouldn't be the time he'd try it.
Yea, that was part of the reason I was hesitant to mention anything sooner. I was hoping the orders would go through before they were under the microscope. The litigation bombshell came out about a week after the orders were placed.
I would assume they would have tightened things up before that info was made public.
At the very least, a few people who were screwed in the past will be getting an edc-4.
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Cool move, Brian. I suppose there's always a chance the tests could reveal something interesting anyway.Yea, that was part of the reason I was hesitant to mention anything sooner. I was hoping the orders would go through before they were under the microscope. The litigation bombshell came out about a week after the orders were placed.
I would assume they would have tightened things up before that info was made public.
At the very least, a few people who were screwed in the past will be getting an edc-4.
On that note…
If you are a paying BladeForums member, and placed an order with Survive! at least a year ago and have yet to receive your order, or a refund… and can prove you have made an attempt to receive a refund, I’d really like to talk to you.
I know you’re out there.
If you are a paying BladeForums member, and placed an order with Survive! at least a year ago and have yet to receive your order, or a refund… and can prove you have made an attempt to receive a refund, I’d really like to talk to you.
I know you’re out there.
Danny Linguini
Gold Member
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I don’t know, maybe just do a forum giveaway. You know there are people out there who’d take it despite the shady characters whoIf no one contacts me in the next month, what do you guys think?
Bandsaw fodder? Grinder? .300 mag?
There’s no way I’m keeping it.
I don’t know, maybe just do a forum giveaway. You know there are people out there who’d take it despite the shady characters whomadeassembled it. The blades are supposedly decent, according to a few of the few folks who’ve actually gotten one. That is, assuming you don’t want to sell it. I’m sure the creative minds here could come up with some bizzarro criteria to qualify.
I definitely won’t be selling it. I’d feel gross doing that with all the people waiting on a knife from S!K.
I’m sure the forumites here can come up with something.
