CPM-M4 vs CTS-20CP/CPM-S90V

robino

robino

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Aug 11, 2011
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can't find a graph showing edge retention and toughness that compares these three steels on one graph.

i've read numerous opinions on all, but would like to see a graph showing the real numbers between them

anyone have something?

PS- If M390 is on the same graph I wouldn't mind either
 
bladesteel50Kview-1.jpg


I did find this graph but it only compares edge retention, S90V and CTS-20CP isn't mentioned but i've read edge retention is pretty similar between M390 and M4
Knowing that 20CP is pretty much the same as S90V...how would either of these compare in edge retention, to M390 and M4?

I'd like to see a comparison on TOUGHNESS...a lot of great edge retention steels suck at toughness (i know M4 is pretty fairly balanced)

Just which one is KING in both aspects?
 
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Well that's a chart I generated (for which proper etiquette would be to give credit, BTW), but I fear I cannot help you much further. I have not the equipment to test toughness. And I've never tested CTS-20CP nor CPM S90V.

Comparing alloys from different manufacturers using data sheets is often difficult, as their charts seldom match up.

But you could look at this one for Crucible S90V:
http://www.crucible.com/PDFs//DataSheets2010/dsS90v1 2010.pdf

And this one for Crucible CPM M4
http://faq.customtacticals.com/datasheets/m4.pdf

What Spyderco calls CTS-20CP, using the "CTS" which indicates a Carpenter alloy, Carpenter apparently calls "Micro-Melt 420-CW Tool Steel. The compositions are a dead match. I fear you will need to log in to the Carpenter web site to view it, but the datasheet is here, though the format is so different from that of Crucible that I fear you'll not have much luck with a comparison:
http://www.cartech.com/techcenter.aspx?id=1692&searchtext=cts-20CP

Jim Ankerson has tested more alloys than I. It would likely be worth asking his opinion.
 
I didn't know you generated the graph, i did a google images search for steel comparison graphs and saw it.

I suppose they're all great steels, just wanted to know for information sake which is the best all around edge retention and toughness, since all these seem to be the new popular steels I thought someone might have tested all of them
 
Edge retention wise, S90V and CTS-20CP will be better at that, though it's hard to say exactly how much better. In normal use, you'd have to constantly use the knife everyday for months before the edge dulls to the point where you can't slice paper unless you're cutting fiberglass or cardboard all day.

As for the toughness issue, M4 should be considerably tougher, possibly above S30V since Benchmade made a big chopper out of it. Though frankly, I've never chipped S90V unless I nicked stone or metal with it, so it's hard to say whether toughness is really an issue.

I would suggest M390 however. It's basically stainless M4, and the edge still tends to roll rather than chip at Rc 62. Ankerson also swears the edge retention gets up there with S90V at Rc 61+, but I personally don't use my knives often enough to tell the difference:rolleyes:.
 
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Noctis3880 said:
Interesting graph, but I sincerely doubt S90V has the same toughness as S30V:thumbdn:.
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Depends on the hardnesses at which you're comparing the two steels. If the S90V data sheet is any guide, the S90V wear resistance and toughness they've used for the chart in the S35VN data sheet are for S90V at 58 HRC. At the actual hardnesses the steels are run incutlery applications (58-59.5 for S30V, ~61 for S90V), then yeah, S30V will be noticeably tougher.
 
Noctis3880 said:
Interesting graph, but I sincerely doubt S90V has the same toughness as S30V:thumbdn:.
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neuron said:
Depends on the hardnesses at which you're comparing the two steels. If the S90V data sheet is any guide, the S90V wear resistance and toughness they've used for the chart in the S35VN data sheet are for S90V at 58 HRC. At the actual hardnesses the steels are run in cutlery applications (58-59.5 for S30V, ~61 for S90V), then yeah, S30V will be noticeably tougher.
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I dunno. It was my understanding that S90V got it's performance from a higher carbide loading, in particular, more Vanadium Carbides. I'm not certain that the higher percentage of Vanadium Carbide would affect the toughness. So, as Neuron says, it would depend on the hardness to which they were heat treated. My Buck Vantage Pro has an S30V blade that tested at 59.7. I've never tested an S90V blades, but Jim Ankerson listed the hardness for two S90 blades as being 59 and 60.

So at the end of the day it looks like S90V and S30V, when used in knives, might indeed have the same toughness.
 
so that basically makes the M4 the best of both worlds, right?
it's the most balanced steel it seems, plenty tough and lots of edge retention, up there with the best.

Does anyone make a steel that is comparable to the CPM-M4?

The same way CTS-20CP is similar with S90V, is there another steel that copies the same values as M4?
 
robino said:
so that basically makes the M4 the best of both worlds, right?
it's the most balanced steel it seems, plenty tough and lots of edge retention, up there with the best.

Does anyone make a steel that is comparable to the CPM-M4?

The same way CTS-20CP is similar with S90V, is there another steel that copies the same values as M4?
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M4 really isn't all that great, well maybe to some who haven't seen or used that many steels it might be, but there are a lot of better choices out there. ;)

Most balanced steel?????

Compared to what?

Doing what?

M4 is OK, but not even in my top 10 of steel choices.
 
from what i read ELMAX is tougher than cpm-m4 and has just as good of edge retention if not better

as for toughness i find cpm-154 (the best steel i have atm next to sr-101) to be very very tough, tonight i cut a piece of wood off a 2x4 that would of caused vg-10 or ats-34 chip like mad but it didnt even dull my cpm-154 blade, this stuff amazes me.
 
kimberfan said:
from what i read ELMAX is tougher than cpm-m4 and has just as good of edge retention if not better

as for toughness i find cpm-154 (the best steel i have atm next to sr-101) to be very very tough, tonight i cut a piece of wood off a 2x4 that would of caused vg-10 or ats-34 chip like mad but it didnt even dull my cpm-154 blade, this stuff amazes me.
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Not sure about tougher than M4, at optimal hardness M4 is pretty tough, but at a loss of edge retention, it's not 3V how ever.

CPM-154 is just a great steel. :)

I like ELMAX also, it's very nice, tough and with a good HT at proper hardness range it really holds an edge extremely well.
 
Ankerson said:
M4 really isn't all that great, well maybe to some who haven't seen or used that many steels it might be, but there are a lot of better choices out there. ;)

Like What?

Most balanced steel?????

Yes, as in equally tough and equally capable in edge retention, i saw 3V being much tougher but much lower in edge retention, based on what these gents above are saying S90V and 20CP are great at edge retention but nowhere near the toughness of M4.

Compared to what?

You tell me, that's what the thread is all about, give us some examples of the top 10, I'd be happy to hear them, I'm here to learn how they would compare against M4, 20CP and S90V

Doing what?

Doing tough stuff and cutting stuff. Pretty self explanatory, tough means chopping, edge retention means cutting, so a great all around, toughest and great edge retention, but equally balanced in both, which is why i wanted to see a graph in the first place, to see how they all stack up

M4 is OK, but not even in my top 10 of steel choices.

By all means, list them
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robino said:
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Tough stuff like what?

Compared to what?

Chopping what? And with what????

A 4" folder?????

How tough does a steel really need to be in a 4" folder and one might want to still cut stuff with it too so thickness might be a factor?
 
:eek: this is going to be interesting... BTW dude.. Ankerson is a steel god
 
who was talking about folders or 4"?

I was asking about steel in general

I asked for a graph showing various steels and how they compare in all toughness and edge retention. Graphs are typically based on tests, toughness as far as i know is tested in terms of a Charpy test. Is there any data showing these steels and their performance?

Steel is steel, i'm not asking how tough a 4" folder needs to be, obviously a 4" folder should primarily be able to cut well and keep an edge for a long time, obviously toughness means little as you're not going to be chopping through 2x4's with it.

I saw that Benchmade went with M4 in their competition chopper and i've seen that in those competitions, they mix chopping of hard objects with finesse slicing of straws, so i'm guessing a blade that can do both well would be picked...in which case Benchmade picked M4, what other steel might they have picked to be better in a chopping competition knife? Let's start with that.

Again, this wasn't supposed to be 4" folder vs chopper, this was merely an informational question to see which steel has BOTH qualities equally balanced, not just one up to one extreme and the other down to the other extreme (such as 3V which seems to be super tough but fairly sucky at edge retention).

I find it hard to believe that on this huge forum nobody took the latest steels to put them against one another in various cutting/chopping tests and determine which holds an edge longer and which chops best before chipping. I've seen plenty of S90V vs 20CP but those we already know are pretty close to one another, I was searching for answers on those steels up against M4 or M390 (and feel free to add the other 10 steels that you say are better, don't hold out).
 
furfmonkey said:
:eek: this is going to be interesting... BTW dude.. Ankerson is a steel god
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I think people get carried away with M4 due to Blade Sports, but M4 isn't the only blade steel that is used in Blade Sports and the knives used are one of a kind CUSTOMS (Read EXPENSIVE) tailor made just for that with very detailed CUSTOM Heat Treats and Tempering and blade grinds and edge profiles just for Competition cutting.

They aren't the same or even in the same world as production knives....
 
robino said:
who was talking about folders or 4"?

I was asking about steel in general

I asked for a graph showing various steels and how they compare in all toughness and edge retention. Graphs are typically based on tests, toughness as far as i know is tested in terms of a Charpy test. Is there any data showing these steels and their performance?

Steel is steel, i'm not asking how tough a 4" folder needs to be, obviously a 4" folder should primarily be able to cut well and keep an edge for a long time, obviously toughness means little as you're not going to be chopping through 2x4's with it.

I saw that Benchmade went with M4 in their competition chopper and i've seen that in those competitions, they mix chopping of hard objects with finesse slicing of straws, so i'm guessing a blade that can do both well would be picked...in which case Benchmade picked M4, what other steel might they have picked to be better in a chopping competition knife? Let's start with that.

Again, this wasn't supposed to be 4" folder vs chopper, this was merely an informational question to see which steel has BOTH qualities equally balanced, not just one up to one extreme and the other down to the other extreme (such as 3V which seems to be super tough but fairly sucky at edge retention).

I find it hard to believe that on this huge forum nobody took the latest steels to put them against one another in various cutting/chopping tests and determine which holds an edge longer and which chops best before chipping. I've seen plenty of S90V vs 20CP but those we already know are pretty close to one another, I was searching for answers on those steels up against M4 or M390 (and feel free to add the other 10 steels that you say are better, don't hold out).
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TOO many variables to just talk about steels in general or to answer your original question, it just won't happen because the answer would change as the variables do.

No one steel is perfect at everything across the board....

The are no free lunches with steels at all, to get something we have to give up something else or a number of things.

The only real answer is that there isn't an answer.

There is a graph on Crucibles website, but that is just for reference.

http://www.crucible.com/PDFs/Knifemaker REV June 2010.pdf
 
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i was cutting some boxes and accidentally cut into the metal shelving unit with s90v. it did not chip and actually notched the shelf a bit. i consider that decent results in a toughness oriented test. the edge was damaged in that spot but it just deformed with no chip out. as an aside, i love m4 but my uses have me leaning more to stainless steels. i'd love to see spyderco or BM give me some elmax with a decent cutting profile as the ZT 0551 does not really showcase that steel
 
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