CPM-M4 vs CTS-20CP/CPM-S90V

can you list the 10 steels that you were putting before M4?
for information sake, i like to know what's what, it would only help

I know of cts-xhp, Elmax, K390...what others?
 
if you can copy/paste their graph on here would be great, it still isn't working for me
 
Ankerson said:
TOO many variables to just talk about steels in general or to answer your original question, it just won't happen because the answer would change as the variables do.

No one steel is perfect at everything across the board....

The are no free lunches with steels at all, to get something we have to give up something else or a number of things.

The only real answer is that there isn't an answer.

There is a graph on Crucibles website, but that is just for reference.

http://www.crucible.com/PDFs/Knifemaker REV June 2010.pdf
Click to expand...

That's a nice link, Jim. I'd not seen that one before. Saved that one on my hard drive. THANKS!

I agree with you. There is no one steel that is optimal for all uses, even if you vary the heat treat. There isn't even a single steel that is the best for a single use.

As you say, the problem is too complex to be boiled down into a simple graph. The most I've ever tried to do is to chart a rough comparison of edge retentions of alloys that are pretty much the same hardness using a measuring method that minimizes the effects of blade shape.
 
robino said:
can you list the 10 steels that you were putting before M4?
for information sake, i like to know what's what, it would only help

I know of cts-xhp, Elmax, K390...what others?
Click to expand...

Just about anything stainless around S30V performance wise and up for general use. ;)

For a hard use field blade... Chopper ect just about anything non stainless lower alloy would be a better choice, very long list there.

But that all depends on what the knife is, what it's designed to do and what the real use will likely be and the HT, tempering of the steels, blade grind, edge profile and finish.

But then that all could likely change depending on day to day use or different use on a given minute, hour, day, week, month or year.

Like I said no real answer to the question because the question is way to broad and there are way too many variables.
 
For anyone having trouble viewing the graph (probably a problem with your browser's Adobe Reader plugin, since it's within a PDF file), I took a screenshot and hosted it as a JPEG.

72035bc5.jpg
 
knarfeng said:
That's a nice link, Jim. I'd not seen that one before. Saved that one on my hard drive. THANKS!

I agree with you. There is no one steel that is optimal for all uses, even if you vary the heat treat. There isn't even a single steel that is the best for a single use.

As you say, the problem is too complex to be boiled down into a simple graph. The most I've ever tried to do is to chart a rough comparison of edge retentions of alloys that are pretty much the same hardness using a measuring method that minimizes the effects of blade shape.
Click to expand...

No problem Frank. :)

It's a nice general reference chart that gives a nice overview of the steels. :D

Yeah the question is just way too broad to even begin to think about even getting started to even think about answering the question. :confused:

Too many steels...

Then start talking about Customs and the world just opens up to even more possibilities.
 
Last edited:
Again, I would put up M390 as the best all-rounder. The only one I have in production is from Benchmade, and they did pretty good with that as the edge retention seems to match the CPM-M4 in my Spyderco Gayle Bradley. Haven't done much to test toughness, though it didn't chip short of cutting into dirt, but that would ruin any edge:thumbdn:.

Stainless M4, what more could you need? I hear Spyderco runs it a little harder, though their HT always tends to push the limits harder than other makers.

Not sure if M4 is a good all-rounder given that it isn't stainless(though still shows more corrosion resistance than my Shirogami Chef's knife), but I happen to like it as a knife blade. S90V could be fine depending on your uses. But I feel the deal breaker in M390 is that it seems to sharpen up the same as S30V(maybe a little longer), though not nearly as much of a pain to sharpen as S90V and similar steels. For those of us not obsessed with that little bit of edge retention, I feel the tradeoff is very fair when you look at the general picture.
 
knarfeng said:
What Spyderco calls CTS-20CP, using the "CTS" which indicates a Carpenter alloy, Carpenter apparently calls "Micro-Melt 420-CW Tool Steel. The compositions are a dead match. I fear you will need to log in to the Carpenter web site to view it, but the datasheet is here, though the format is so different from that of Crucible that I fear you'll not have much luck with a comparison:
http://www.cartech.com/techcenter.aspx?id=1692&searchtext=cts-20CP
Click to expand...

Checking out this URL and digging down to their wear resistance test gets you to this page.
Scroll down to Wear Resistance and look at the table.
The number progression is pretty impressive.

http://cartech.ides.com/datasheet.aspx?E=339&FMT=PRINT

You may have to click on the quoted URL first to access the second one.
 
Last edited:
shunsui said:
Checking out this URL and digging down to their wear resistance test gets you to this page.
Scroll down to Wear Resistance and look at the table.
The number progression is pretty impressive.

http://cartech.ides.com/datasheet.aspx?E=339&FMT=PRINT

You may have to click on the quoted URL first to access the second one.
Click to expand...

A11 is the one that is impressive, at 63 HRC it shows a 40% increase over 20CP at 60 HRC in that test, for those who don't know that is a HUGE difference. :)

For reference that A11 class of steels also includes CPM-10V and K294, they can be taken to harder than 63 HRC also....
 
Last edited:
robino said:
can you list the 10 steels that you were putting before M4?
for information sake, i like to know what's what, it would only help

I know of cts-xhp, Elmax, K390...what others?
Click to expand...

He already did in this thread.

You can't talk about "steel." You have to take into consideration hardness, primary grind, secondary bevel, etc. Differences that seem small can make a big difference.
 
Last edited:
JNewell said:
He already did in this thread.

You can't talk about "steel." You have to take into consideration hardness, primary grind, secondary bevel, etc. Differences that seem small can make a big difference.
Click to expand...

Everything matters for sure, then there is perception or perceived performance of one steel over another, and don't forget Urban Legends.....
 
What I use mostly at work these days is S30V (Spyderco Para 2) and I also EDC S30V most of the time (CRK ZAAN) if that tells anyone anything.

That will change I believe once I can get my hands on a M390 Military though, or ELMAX for that matter.

I do need to take my XHP Military to work for about a month or so to see how that does.
 
Ankerson said:
M4 really isn't all that great, well maybe to some who haven't seen or used that many steels it might be, but there are a lot of better choices out there. ;)

Most balanced steel?????

Compared to what?

Doing what?

M4 is OK, but not even in my top 10 of steel choices.
Click to expand...

I have come to this conclusion also recently. I have put M4 to the test and it does perform fairly well, but not nearly as good as some of the other steels in it's range - and it's not even stainless. It gives nothing that you can't get in another steel that is actually stain resistant.
 
I don't have any experience with S90V, but have put Spyderco's M4 and 20CP to use.

M4 is a good steel. My Gayle Bradley took a mean edge, and held it well. I did get M4 to rust fairly easily on me, but that's not entirely M4's fault. I was carrying and using it this Spring and Summer for a couple months, and I was chronically drenched in sweat. Whether it was doing field work, hiking, or fishing, it was hot and humid. RemOil just wasn't enough for it.

I've been carrying my Para 2 in 20CP for about 2-3 months straight now, and have been using it constantly. It definitely holds an edge longer than the M4. No rust yet, and I haven't been very liberal with the RemOil. Concrete and metal staples haven't caused any edge damage either. I don't know if the M4 is significantly stronger than the 20CP, mainly because I'm not doing much prying or chopping with a 3.5" folder. I prefer the 20CP.
 
In the real world M4 is a great steel regardless of what 10 may be better or newer. Naming 10 knives with better steels than CPM-M4 is going to be the real challenge.

Most people don't prefer high wear steels because of how the edge breaks down in use. M4 holds a sharp edge longer and gets crazy sharp with little effort and that's what people like.
 
CrimsonTideShooter said:
I have come to this conclusion also recently. I have put M4 to the test and it does perform fairly well, but not nearly as good as some of the other steels in it's range - and it's not even stainless. It gives nothing that you can't get in another steel that is actually stain resistant.
Click to expand...
Until M390 was introduced into the knife industry, I think M4 provided high edge retention along with the ability to take and hold a razor sharp edge. Sure, S90V would hold an edge longer, but S90V is quite the rare animal aside from an occasional sprint run and a couple of customs. M4 is actually used in production knives, though I only trust Spyderco with the heat treat.

You have to consider the context of the steel in the past tense as well, as looking at things that way could explain why S30V was considered the premium steel in its day.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top