Customs Pricing – Opinions and Views?

Architect said:
"Collectors" vs. "Dealers" - geez, what a load of cr*p. You boys trying to place yourselves above the fray - get a life. If you want to be a "patron" - put your money in serious art - the price of admission starts at $1M and goes up. If you can't do that, too bad. No, I can't either, but I know way more about the serious art world than you do about the "serious" knife world, so one-upsmanship is game you won't win.
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Yunno....I have had a table at the OKCA show in Oregon until this year, for the last 12 years....you wanna bang on Les, but how come I don't know who YOU are, Archie?

The discussion is knives, not anything else, specifically customs pricing. Did you add anything of quality or value to the discussion of knives with your contributions, beyond a lesson in etymology? Not really.:eek:

Do you know more about collecting knives than Kevin? Not from what I have seen in your writings. Did you know that Kevin is going to present a collector's seminar at the ABS Exposition in Reno next year?

Even though we were having a personal disagreement, Kevin and I still managed to keep it on track about the discussion at hand, the new collector and their involvement with pricing...you are so self-righteous....but no one here knows who you are...that makes what you have to say, more....questionable.

STeven Garsson
 
HI AG,

LOL, we both know that you are more than a "Watch Salesman". You have obviously been very successful in the Knife Community...all kinds of knives.
We both know my post was not meant to "put you in your place". You already have your place in Arkansas and are doing very well with.

Architect:

You call it reptitiave..I call it consistent. Consistency is not something you see a lot of these days.

There is only one forum I don't use my name on...this one. Oddly enough you don't use your real name here either. Is that lack of judgement on your part.

What a horrible miscue on my part. Makes you wonder how it is I am writing for two different knife magazines and doing seminars for both makers and collectors. :D

John T,

A cheap shot??? If you own a car dealer ship that only sells Chevy's doesn't that make you a Chevy Dealer? And if you are selling Mercedes or Porches you better believe those buiness's make a very clear distinction of exactly what product they are selling. You can say to them "Aren't you take a cheap shot at Chevy and they will tell you no". Why becaue of the type of car they are selling.

Why is it when you go to a Chevy dealership the Corvette's are never on the lot? You always have to go inside to see the Corvette. Why because even Chevy discriminates among its own vehicles. When I bought my Suburban it was only $5,000 less than the Corvette. Yet the lot was full of Suburbans...Why do you thiink that was.

Custom knife dealers sell only custom knives. See you weren't around 7 years ago when Iwas pointing out that Chris Reeve knives and Randall's were not custom knives. People swore up and down they were. Guess what..they are not.

Man you must be a Liberal! You like to take the part that serves your point and leave out the rest:

You forgot the second part of the "Custom" definition that is that the term "Custom" is a MARKETING TERM used to identify a particular type of knife.

If you are going to take a shot at me, at least have the courtesy to include the total quote. However, if you did that then you wouldn't have been able to make that second statement.


Hi Kevin,

Don't worry about Architect, if he wasn't taking shots at me I would think something was wrong. He is consistetnt...oh sorry Retatitive in this. :D

WWG
 
Hi STeven,

Thanks.

Hi STephen,

Very nice, Im going to "borrow" that post. :D


HI Keith,

For the record, I do not consider myself a dealer or a purveyor.

I am a Custom Knife Entrepreneur.

As I do not merely buy and sell custom (or any other kind of) knives.

WWG
 
Kevin Jones said:
Joss, just because you don't choose to buy knives that can later be sold at a profit, or can't collect knives without losing money...
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Kevin - with all due respect you simply don't know what you are talking about when you start commenting on other people's history or track record.

Do you know how many millions of dollars have been make in collector cars over the last 15 years?

Go to some of the major classic cars auctions and tell the collectors that are speechless as they just made thousands on cars they have owned less than two years that you can't buy something and re-sell it for a profit.
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I didn't say that. I said you could make money at it but then you would have to treat it as a job, and work hard at it.

Your analogy has several problems:

1 - The car market might have been very strong recently (I don't know), but it doesn't mean that it will continue. People used to make thousands on Enron and eToys too.

2 - I'd be willing to bet that you would also find collectors who lost money during that time, no? Surely there are cars that were hot 2 years ago but are not so hot now (maybe not if the entire market is going up).

3 - You need to factor in ownership costs - maintenance, parts, time spent taking care of the car, renting a garage, insurance, inflation, etc. Did you do that?

I suspect that the vast, vast majority of people who bought a classic car 15 or 50 years ago and kept it in prime condition have lost money on it, when compared to the benefit they would have made by just putting their money in the S&P500 and forgot about it. A $1 invested then is now worth $1,552.50 (based on the value of the GSPC index) - can car (or knife) collecting match that? Is the average classic car paid $1,000 in 1950 worth $1.5M now, net of ownership costs? I think not.
 
Stephen F said:
I think this is one of the most interesting threads I have read in some tme.


Great open and honest dialogue between STeven and Kevin in the last couple of pages .... some of the comments and opinions expressed there give a real insight into the dilemmas and principal differences between the different types of collectors and "investors".

My contribution for what its worth is as follows:

PRICING AND BUYING: What have I learnt in the last few years?

1 - How do you make money on knives?

Patience: Get on the list of one of the top makers - you know the names. Someone new to the game or without the patience will pay you a hansome premium when the knife is ready.

Attend Shows: Get there early or pre-purchase!

Arbitrage: Have some inside info, contacts, or plain luck that allow you to buy below the market price.

Talent Spotting: Identify the next big thing, buy early and promote them.

Investment: Put your money in the great names and sit back and admire them for a some years.

Research: This is your time investment and is needed for any of the above. To know who and how much.

2 - How do you lose money on knives?

By making the wrong decision or choices in any of the above.

3 - Is "buying what you like" worth it?

Yes - if maintenance of value is not your primary goal or you can afford it and are happy to trust to luck. For some the pride of ownership is the primary factor. Type A collectors.

No - if you want to have more certainty in the value of your collection. Type B collectors.

Some collectors are "split personalities" and combine A and B philiosophies into a collection "portfolio" - This is quite common.

Note: This Type A vs Type B is the bone of contention between many collectors, and neither is right or wrong ..... providing we maintain a BALANCE: The reality is that for the market to survive you need BOTH behaviours in existence, someone to take the loses, someone to take the gains. Also, you can see in various threads that "new" collectors are expected to take some of the loses as part of their education process.

.....now back to my hole!

Stephen
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WOW! . . . took me years to learn. . .You have put it into a nutshell. If they learn, but most will not.
 
This is a great thread, lots of meat and potatoes and lots of fuss and feathers too.

I detest folks who say "can't we all just get along?", but, everybody is here because they share a passion for knives. We should manage a verity of opinions without calling names. A modicum of irony and a bit of sarcasm works fine but this "I know so much more than you" gets old pretty quick. Almost everybody in this thread is a friend of mine and should be friends with each other. Everybody play nice now!
 
I agree with A.G. that Stephen F's post is dead right. I know that I am a "split personality" between Type A and Type B collectors. I would like all of my knives to increase in value, which they probably won't, but I also want to collect knives that I just like. JimTreacy
 
WWG, anybody that takes on the risks and responsibilities of a business is an entrepreneur.

When it comes to pricing, I believe that makers should keep their knives value priced. By that I mean that their prices should reflect their position in the marketplace, but be such that a collector feels good about the price they are paying. That does not mean underpriced. It just means realistically priced.

People can purchase knives for whatever reason they want, but I do not consider someone that purchases knives for the sole purpose of quickly turning them over for a profit to be a collector. To me, that is a dealer.

Collectors that take the time to learn which makers knives are likely to go up in value over the short and long term are smart. These knives are attractive to other collectors. If you are the type of collector that sells so they can get something different, or likes to trade, having knives from these makers will lead to a much greater enjoyment of your hobby.

What I think is the most important thing for a new collector to do is to learn as much about the market as you can before jumping in. As Kevin mentioned, and probably others, be patient. Don't just purchase a knife on a whim, unless you don't care what you will get for that knife if you want, or need, to sell it later. I was lucky. Long before I ever got into collecting custom knives, I was a fan. I studied the makers and had a good idea of which one's knives would hold or increase in value. However, it wasn't until I had read a great many posts by Les, that I started to think that it was important to not only like the knife I was going to purchase, but that I should also be considering how the knife's value will hold up in the secondary market. Thank you Les.

I tend to soak up the great amount of information that is provided on this forum by collectors, makers and dealers that are knowledgeable in areas that I am not. That has added enjoyment and passion to my collecting. I will continue to take advantage of all the information freely offered by those that take part here, and in other areas of Bladeforums, and when I can, I will gladly pass it along to others in the future. My thanks to all of you.
 
What we need is an "International Custom Knife Pricing Regulatory Committee" or ICKPRC,… not. :)
 
Joss said:
Kevin - with all due respect you simply don't know what you are talking about when you start commenting on other people's history or track record.



I didn't say that. I said you could make money at it but then you would have to treat it as a job, and work hard at it.

Your analogy has several problems:

1 - The car market might have been very strong recently (I don't know), but it doesn't mean that it will continue. People used to make thousands on Enron and eToys too.

2 - I'd be willing to bet that you would also find collectors who lost money during that time, no? Surely there are cars that were hot 2 years ago but are not so hot now (maybe not if the entire market is going up).

3 - You need to factor in ownership costs - maintenance, parts, time spent taking care of the car, renting a garage, insurance, inflation, etc. Did you do that?

I suspect that the vast, vast majority of people who bought a classic car 15 or 50 years ago and kept it in prime condition have lost money on it, when compared to the benefit they would have made by just putting their money in the S&P500 and forgot about it. A $1 invested then is now worth $1,552.50 (based on the value of the GSPC index) - can car (or knife) collecting match that? Is the average classic car paid $1,000 in 1950 worth $1.5M now, net of ownership costs? I think not.
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Well Joss, in my 50 years I’m sure last night was not the first nor will it be the last time I make a fool of myself. If that’s what I did. Guess I’m just tired of your holier than thou negative attitude towards everyone, especially new collectors on this forum when they are just trying to participate and learn.

I normally would not give examples, but since you found it necessary to call me a fool (the fact that you edited it out after the post does not change anything) perhaps I will share a couple that instantly come to mind:

Was it really necessary for you to make Mike Lovett appear to be illiterate just because he does not have your computer savvy. It does not make him less. Thousands viewed that thread. Could you have not just as easy contacted him privately and helped him out?

An example in your making a fool out of yourself when not knowing what you are talking about would be in regard to my Hendrickson Southwest Bowie and your persistence to insist that the turquoise were reconstituted rather than whole stones both on and off the forum, even after I assured you they were. Did you think that nor Jay Hendrickson or I know the difference? Or were you insinuating that I was lying? I finally had to e-mail you a photo of the raw stone before being cut to the handle before you conceded.

And thanks for the lesson on classic car investing and the investment indexes even though I have been involved in it for almost 30 years. And I’m not talking about buying a car in the 50s and holding it until now, and keeping up with the indexes after adjusting for expenses, I’m referring to collectors/investors buying then selling classic sports cars short term and making thousands.

Steven, defended you last night quite admirably, and I admitted this morning I may have been a bit out of line, so your unedited post calling me a fool was definitely out of line.

Joss, the glass can be half full.
 
A.G,
If you're refering to THIS Russ, I'm doing well....watching, reading,
maybe even learning......Thanks.

How've you been...?
 
Les , I wasnt taking a cheap shot , if I was I wouldnt have added the ;) at the end.

The car dealer theory doesnt hold up , they are all made by the same parent company on a chevy lot :)
 
Kevin Jones said:
I normally would not give examples, but since you found it necessary to call me a fool (the fact that you edited it out after the post does not change anything) perhaps I will share a couple that instantly come to mind:
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Sure, I responded too fast and called you a fool, which was inappropriate, and I then decided it was a stupid action and changed it. I was wrong to call you a fool, I'm sorry you or anyone saw it, and I apologize for it.


Was it really necessary for you to make Mike Lovett appear to be illiterate just because he does not have your computer savvy. It does not make him less. Thousands viewed that thread. Could you have not just as easy contacted him privately and helped him out?
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I'm not going to argue with you on this. Let's agree to disagree. Mike's actions on various threads speak for himself. I don't think he's illiterate, to the contrary.

An example in your making a fool out of yourself when not knowing what you are talking about would be in regard to my Hendrickson Southwest Bowie and your persistence to insist that the turquoise were reconstituted rather than whole stones both on and off the forum, even after I assured you they were.

Did you think that nor Jay Hendrickson or I know the difference? Or were you insinuating that I was lying? I finally had to e-mail you a photo of the raw stone before being cut to the handle before you conceded.
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Wow... I had no idea you held grudges like that. This is the thread in question:
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=469365

I made one post on 4/21 at 11:09am, which I edited at 11:42am. I don't recall what was in my initial post, but if I mentionned that I thought it was reconstituted turquoise (I doubt it), I obviously edited that out as quickly as possible. I do recall your emailing me asking me for my opinion on the piece, and my telling you that I didn't like it for several reasons, and that at that time I thought the turquoise was reconstituted. You corrected me on this, and as far as I know, that was it. Maybe there was one more exchange where I said "you're sure?" or something of the sort, but really I think you're blowing this out of proportion. I'm really surprised you took that so personally. I'll try to keep that in mind in the future.
 
A. G. Russell said:
Knifemakers should be investing in, steel, handle material, supplies.

Knife dealers should be investing in the work of makers that experience has told them will go up. For me that means, Loveless, Moran, Scagel, early Randall. Talk to Rhett Stidham and ask what he invests in. Rhett and Janie are probably more successful than the next three custom dealers put together

Collectors should be investing in the pleasure of owning the things they love. If they are buying for profit they are dealers, not collectors. Lots of my customer/collectors have become dealers over the years, people like J. W. Denton and many, many others. If you can love the knives of makers like Michael Price and Bill Scagel then your knives will always be worth more year by year.
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A.G, for me, thats the BEST piece of advice in this whole thread.
First time I ever met Rhett was at a show in 87. I kept looking at a Loveless drop point but was very hesitant because of the price. I was amazed at the fit and finish but also at the price!!(think it was 650 at the time)
Rhett said, "young man, the value of that knife can only go up." Boy, was he right. Even at that time, I remember a lot of people telling me that Loveless knives have reached their limit. Even today, there are guys saying that all the time.
To Rhett, Paul Basch, Dave Harvey, J.W. Denton, the late Joe Drouin(who patiently answered endless questions), a BIG THANK YOU!
You guys are the veterans of the custom knife world and have contributed a lot to me and countless others on how we value our knife collections.
 
Joss said:
Sure, I responded too fast and called you a fool, which was inappropriate, and I then decided it was a stupid action and changed it. I was wrong to call you a fool, I'm sorry you or anyone saw it, and I apologize for it.

I'm not going to argue with you on this. Let's agree to disagree. Mike's actions on various threads speak for himself. I don't think he's illiterate, to the contrary.
Wow... I had no idea you held grudges like that. This is the thread in question:
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=469365

I made one post on 4/21 at 11:09am, which I edited at 11:42am. I don't recall what was in my initial post, but if I mentionned that I thought it was reconstituted turquoise (I doubt it), I obviously edited that out as quickly as possible. I do recall your emailing me asking me for my opinion on the piece, and my telling you that I didn't like it for several reasons, and that at that time I thought the turquoise was reconstituted. You corrected me on this, and as far as I know, that was it. Maybe there was one more exchange where I said "you're sure?" or something of the sort, but really I think you're blowing this out of proportion. I'm really surprised you took that so personally. I'll try to keep that in mind in the future.
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No grudge Joss, (not that I'm not a sensitive guy) ;) it just stuck with me as I thought it odd that you were implying that I was trying to make something seem something it was not. As I remember there was more back and forth via e-mail on the subject then you remember.
I only mentioned the stone in the Bowie's description in the first place as it was a difficult process working it into the handle. Much more difficult than working with reconstituted stone.

When I came on this forum 9 months ago (my first ever forum experience), I was a little nervous interacting with all you experts, but I was treated with respect and several times I got put into my place (even by Kohai999, :eek: that guy was scary) but in a positive and constructive manner so I stayed and have learned quite a bit from all the regulars here including you Joss.
So I tend to want other newbies to have the same experience.

Anyway, lets move on to more constructive subjects.
 
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