Customs Pricing – Opinions and Views?

[Don Hanson III]

Kevin, Joss, you two are both assets to this forum. Now lets shake hands and move on

This has been a very interesting thread.

 

[Kevin Jones]

Kevin, Joss, you two are both assets to this forum. Now lets shake hands and move on

This has been a very interesting thread.

I've already moved on; no hard feelings here.

 

[Kohai999]

to pull the "fine art" thing out for a moment, "benefactors" have been buying for hundreds of years....

In the case of the fine forged blade, they have been around long enough for the masses to be collecting, for what 20 years? And the last 10 is when we have seen a body of quality large enough for many to covet.

Remember that the first Knifemakers Guild meeting was in something like 1973, man, that makes me feel old, because I can remember back that far.

My friend collecting since the '60's corrected me today, and said that he saw those that hoped to realize a profit as "investors", not "collectors".

The bottom line is that we have a lot of new makers, and need as many new "collectors" OR "investors" coming into the community as we can get to ensure that there is some degree of balance, and KEEP them here, or we are going to lose a lot of talented makers who cannot make it to the next level due to lack of patronage.

There is some gloom and doom for you.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[Keith Montgomery]

The bottom line is that we have a lot of new makers, and need as many new "collectors" OR "investors" coming into the community as we can get to ensure that there is some degree of balance, and KEEP them here, or we are going to lose a lot of talented makers who cannot make it to the next level due to lack of patronage.

Do you think there are enough new collectors coming into the market, or are the new makers already starting to produce more knives than can be assimilated?

 

[Kevin Jones]

Do you think there enough new collectors coming into the market, or are the new makers already starting to produce more knives than can be assimilated?

STeven thanks for bringing this up as I don't seem to get much traction on this point.

Keith, as I have made reference to many times, I fear the collector/maker ratio is or will be in jeopardy unless things change.

That's why I'm so passionate in recruiting, educating and keepings new collectors interested.

You have more new knifemakers coming on every month, and you have both new and established collectors leaving the industry.

That's why I like seeing the ABS becoming more in-tune with the collector to in turn help the maker.

 

[Keith Montgomery]

There has been an explosion in the number of new makers over the last half dozen years. I wonder how many knives that are being sold by these new makers. I realize that most of them are part time and don't need to sell very many knives, but what opportunities are there for these makers to go it full time? I'm actually quite amazed at the number of people there are making knives.

 

[Kohai999]

Do you think there are enough new collectors coming into the market, or are the new makers already starting to produce more knives than can be assimilated?

There are not ENOUGH new collectors coming into the market, and there never will be "ENOUGH".

"Enough" collectors is when it becomes a sellers market across the board, instead of it just being the top 5 %.

My collector friend from the '60's also points out that the collectors back then were collectors first and foremost because there was NO market for custom knives. Obviously that has changed.

Don't like just pointing out problems, like solutions as well. So here is my take.

The "outdoors(hunting/fishing)" market is on the wane, as our Western males become more emasculated.....ok, that is pretty much fact...well if we CAN get the art community onboard, which requires the enlisting of the academics at the undergraduate university level(maybe could happen) that would be a start.

So would knifemakers as a group submitting grant proposals at the local government level for art/craft funding.

Just two random ideas. The idea of collecting seminars at shows is a good one, but you are really preaching to the choir there.

One of the other problems is that there are not too many art forms that become lethal weapons like immediately. We may have to promote the not edged/not pointy art obects that artists like Gay Rocha and Virgil England produce in order to get full acceptance from the "art fucks".

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[Keith Montgomery]

We may have to promote the not edged/not pointy art obects that artists like Gay Rocha and Virgil England produce in order to get full acceptance from the "art fucks".

I don't think there are a lot of makers that want to produce those kinds of knives.

 

[Kevin Jones]

The bottom line is that we have a lot of new makers, and need as many new "collectors" OR "investors" coming into the community as we can get to ensure that there is some degree of balance, and KEEP them here, or we are going to lose a lot of talented makers who cannot make it to the next level due to lack of patronage.
There is some gloom and doom for you.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

I had never seen an industry where business owners or artisans welcome and even train potential competition the way many established knifemakers do.

It’s a very noble and admirable jester, but you have to start to wonder if they may start contributing to their own demise at some point?

Just an observation.

 

[Kohai999]

I had never seen an industry where the participants welcome and even train potential competition the way many established knifemakers do.

Any industry where the demand is grossly higher than the supply.

Explosives engineers right now are in such high demand that there is a University program in Montana specifically designed as a feed to the industry.

Same thing with tailors, cobblers, nurses, stone masons, electricians and plumbers(yeah, them again )

Unfortunately we are seeing MUCH more training of knifemakers than we are collectors, so the balance is hugely out of whack. There is no professional requirements to meet in order to be able to call yourself a knifemaker, and there ARE enough dill holes out there to cause damage to a significant portion of new AND veteran collectors...Allan Blade, Dale Reif at one point, Larry Chew....and a fair amount of others.

That kind of damage is really insidious, because it is almost impossible to undo.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[Kevin Jones]

Any industry where the demand is grossly higher than the supply.

Explosives engineers right now are in such high demand that there is a University program in Montana specifically designed as a feed to the industry.

Same thing with tailors, cobblers, nurses, stone masons, electricians and plumbers(yeah, them again )

Unfortunately we are seeing MUCH more training of knifemakers than we are collectors, so the balance is hugely out of whack. There is no professional requirements to meet in order to be able to call yourself a knifemaker, and there ARE enough dill holes out there to cause damage to a significant portion of new AND veteran collectors...Allan Blade, Dale Reif at one point, Larry Chew....and a fair amount of others.

That kind of damage is really insidious, because it is almost impossible to undo.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

A little different though, as the entities you describe are training worker bees for the companies or industry, where as makers in most cases are not training helpers but knife makers that in many cases will directly compete against them.

For example, in my industry, an electrical contractor company will send an electrician's helper to trade school to become a Journeyman electrician to support their workload, but after completing training the Journeyman is not going to compete against the electrical contractor, he's going to support them.

 

[A. G. Russell]

Remember that the first Knifemakers Guild meeting was in something like 1973, man, that makes me feel old, because I can remember back that far.

STeven Garsson

June 1970 Tulsa, OK at the Kenny Ligget Antique Arms Show

 

[John T Wylie Jr]

perhaps the first step in getting more collectors is to first get more users , once they can appreciate using a great knife , perhaps then they will move into the collecting aspect of it.

I take every chance I get , when someone asks about a knife I am carrying , if they express interest I will get their email and send them an email with links to the various forums , knifemakers and dealers sites.
just a thought.....

 

[ThreeWorlds]

As an aspiring collector that has many properties that Steven says he wants to see in "new collectors" (in my 20s, just out of university), I feel I should throw in my 2 cents.

First, I think if you want to get the art community onboard, especially the young art community, politically, the general environment may have to accept that you may have to become more PC in casual interaction. I know that many BF members are salty old die-hard Republicans, which is fine, but ragging people who say stupid things with "Liberal!" like it's a bad name, is not going to win friends among the art community and young university students. I'm not saying that anyone needs to change who they vote for and who they burn effigies of, but a more neutral public front might be helpful. I don't think getting the art community involved necessarily means makers need to start making knife-like art objects. After all, the phrase "form follows function" came from an artist and was popularized by architects.

Secondly, on the issue of youth in collectors. We live in the internet age. Just about everyone under the age of 30 spends a good portion of their daily life on the internet. And yet, a good number of makers (and knife organizations) don't have a website, or don't have a good website, or don't update their website. This is a problem. :grumpy:

Third, on the Western/outdoors market. I've seen so many posts about how people nowadays are growing up without pocketknives. So, is that really so surprising? If you grow up not knowing what a slipjoint is, or the difference between a wharncliff and a drop point, or that (gasp!) the two of them have different purposes, it will be very difficult to appreciate a good outdoors knife. But, this can be taught, to girls as well as boys, and I'm pretty sure that you'd get a fair amount of interest.

Finally, learning (oh-so-very-very-slowly) about knife collecting is tiring. Very tiring. There's a lot of terminology which can be bewildering to the newbie. It takes years. So does collecting anything, I suppose, but the learning curve could be a lot less laborious than it is currently. And getting the smackdown for being new and ignorant (even though you're trying) from the experienced collectors is no fun either.

 

[Kevin Jones]

perhaps the first step in getting more collectors is to first get more users , once they can appreciate using a great knife , perhaps then they will move into the collecting aspect of it.

I take every chance I get , when someone asks about a knife I am carrying , if they express interest I will get their email and send them an email with links to the various forums , knifemakers and dealers sites.
just a thought.....

John, you are addressing the problem by using good follow-up in hopes of getting a potential new customer. Real estate, car and investment salesmen do this all the time.

When a potential new collector takes the bait, you have to set the hook so to speak. More makers need to do that in my opinion. The successful knife makers are good salesmen. Making a great knife is only part of it.

I like your idea on getting folks to use customs; however there are just not that many opportunities for a mainstream male to use a knife these days.
I assume you hunt and fish, so do I, but most of the population doesn't. We need to go outside the existing parameters to get new collectors.

 

[John T Wylie Jr]

one of my downfalls as told to me by friends is I dont market myself , I am a hobbyist maker , dont take orders , work at my own pace , I instead refer them to an established maker , dont want their views of the custom world tainted by my meager offerings Just like to share my love of knives with others.

funny though , I do not hunt and do not fish , however the majority of the guys at the gun club do , especially on the rifle range , I always make sure to take a couple old issues of knife mags , to lend to those who ask questions about knives.

I agree that going outside existing parameters is a great way to get collectors , not sure how to go about that , anything we as a community can do to show others is a step in the right direction.

 

[jdm61]

Steven...I would disagree somewhat that the "outdoors" market for knives is shrinking. It may, however, be "polarizing" A growing market or a polarizing market where folks are either buying Wal Mart or High End are the only two explanations that I can think of for the runaway success of companies like Busse, Strider, Spyderco, Benchmade, etc. who offer knives that are priced significantly higher than they typical mass market blade. Ditto for the firearms biz. Some of the old line firms have dropped the ball at various times over the past couple of decades and a couple like Colt and Winchester have fallen prey to union stupidity and corporate chicanery, but how many firms were making hot rodded 1911's 25 years ago? How many companies were bringing back high end double shotguns and Mauser style bolt actions and building "custom shop" rifles and pistols? IF the market is polarizing as opposed to growing, then the good news is that it seems to be polarizing in one direction that favors the custom knife maker.
Perhaps something that has not been factored in is the question of how many of the new knife makers were or would have been custom knife buyers and does the fact that they are now making knives reduce the number they might have bought and by how much?
The good news is that we knifemakers, like others, occasionally receive a gift from some unexpected place that spikes the interet in knives. The most recent example that I can think of is the bushcraft craze in the UK.

 

[Kevin Jones]

Steven...I would disagree somewhat that the "outdoors" market for knives is shrinking. It may, however, be "polarizing" A growing market or a polarizing market where folks are either buying Wal Mart or High End are the only two explanations that I can think of for the runaway success of companies like Busse, Strider, Spyderco, Benchmade, etc. who offer knives that are priced significantly higher than they typical mass market blade. Ditto for the firearms biz. Some of the old line firms have dropped the ball at various times over the past couple of decades and a couple like Colt and Winchester have fallen prey to union stupidity and corporate chicanery, but how many firms were making hot rodded 1911's 25 years ago? How many companies were bringing back high end double shotguns and Mauser style bolt actions and building "custom shop" rifles and pistols? IF the market is polarizing as opposed to growing, then the good news is that it seems to be polarizing in one direction that favors the custom knife maker.
Perhaps something that has not been factored in is the question of how many of the new knife makers were or would have been custom knife buyers and does the fact that they are now making knives reduce the number they might have bought and by how much?:D

Good point Joe, I hadn't considered that angle. Just another reason why we need more new collectors.

 

[jdm61]

Good point Joe, I hadn't considered that angle. Just another reason why we need more new collectors.

One of the issues that I have talked about before is that people who buy.....and indeed ones who sell high end guns (personal experience from visiting Purdey and Asprey in London) either don't know or don't care that there are knives out their that are the equal to their guns and should be paired with them. Some of the "tactical" custom gun shops like Wilson have done a decent job at this, but they are the exception. We have been seeing folks like Beretta and Brownig team up with custom makers, but how many folks who buy at the Beretta Gallery in Dallas drop tens of thousands of dollars on an SO grade shotgun and yet think that the Beretta Loveless authorized knife is just a good at $200 because Beretta has it in the display case?

 

[John T Wylie Jr]

The guys at Yost-Bonitz have been pairing up custom 1911's with custom knives in their displays at places like Shot Show.