I Tested the Edge Retention of 48 Steels

[occidentalist]

Larrin, thank you for all your hard work and expertise. I thoroughly enjoy your work.

Have you done any testing with S7?

I have a machete (Bolo) in S7 steel made by Scott Gossman. Kevin Estela famously shot a blank of S7 with a .308 and...nothing happened.

Just curious where S7 falls on your chart.

 

[Larrin]

S7 has low wear resistance and high toughness but I haven’t tested it.

 

[Rusty Shakleford]

God bless you for this. This is very interesting and useful information. There aren't many resources that compare and contrast the properties of knife steel. The Rockwell hardness scale seems to be the base line reference but it doesn't apply a real word use.

Id like to see a flexibility/bending force test done on all these steels to see how much of a beating each steel can actually take. Every knife that has broken on me has been because it snapped at some point. Generally the weakest.

 

[Kennybill50]

Very impressive article...and incredible dedication to control all the variables. Thanks a lot for your work Larrin (and thanks also to Shawn)
One small critic : it would have helped to have colored dots and full steel labels also in the "Toughness-Edge Retention Balance" charts instead of all-blue dots.

Interesting to see 3V beat A8 Mod in edge retention with same toughness.
Also interesting to see S30V with same result than M4.

I have one question about 1095 : what is the purpose of this steel? Why is it so popular for knives companies ? It has very low edge retention and very low corrosion resistance. And, compared to other low alloy steels, the toughness is unimpressive (for instance compared to 5160 or 52100).
Why the myriads of knives in 1095 steel (ESEE, TOPS, Ontario, Ka-Bar...etc)?
Why not using something like S35VN? You have MUCH better edge retention, MUCH better corrosion resistance and same toughness (around 10 ft-lbs).
I understand the purpose of 5160 or 52100 (high toughness) but IMHO it makes no sense to use a low toughness low alloy steel like 1095 or 01. You have all possible downsides and no upsides.

I think paying $150-$200 for a 1095-1070 knife is rediculous with Lion Steel Knives with superior quality price similarly to an Tops, Esee or Ka Bar top end knives.

 

[Marcella231]

If you could answer my one question concerning 1095, that would be great. Why do you think knife manufacturers love it so much? Poor corrosion resistance and edge retention characterize it. Toughness is also subpar when compared to other low alloy steels (for instance compared to 5160 or 52100).
The plethora of 1095 steel knives (ESEE, TOPS, Ontario, Ka-Bar, etc.) begs the question: why so many?

 

[dtcls100]

Never understood why Nitro V is more popular and/or more expensive than 14c28N. The latter has better toughness and corrosion resistance and the same edge retention.

 

[NJCutter]

If you could answer my one question concerning 1095, that would be great. Why do you think knife manufacturers love it so much? Poor corrosion resistance and edge retention characterize it. Toughness is also subpar when compared to other low alloy steels (for instance compared to 5160 or 52100).
The plethora of 1095 steel knives (ESEE, TOPS, Ontario, Ka-Bar, etc.) begs the question: why so many?

1. My guess is that it is cheap enough to manufacture, sell and stand by lifetime warranty, while still making profit
2. abundant supply so you can make millions selling thousands of 1095 Kabar etc, vs selling thousands of other steels
3. Easy to work with and heat treat relative to other steels

 

[Carboniferous]

If you could answer my one question concerning 1095, that would be great. Why do you think knife manufacturers love it so much? Poor corrosion resistance and edge retention characterize it. Toughness is also subpar when compared to other low alloy steels (for instance compared to 5160 or 52100).
The plethora of 1095 steel knives (ESEE, TOPS, Ontario, Ka-Bar, etc.) begs the question: why so many?

Part of it is just what people want. Even if 1075 is arguably a better cutlery steel, when companies switch from 1095 to 1075 people complain. Better chance of a proper heat treat and basically identical performance but folks consider it low quality.

 

[NJCutter]

A bush

If you could answer my one question concerning 1095, that would be great. Why do you think knife manufacturers love it so much? Poor corrosion resistance and edge retention characterize it. Toughness is also subpar when compared to other low alloy steels (for instance compared to 5160 or 52100).
The plethora of 1095 steel knives (ESEE, TOPS, Ontario, Ka-Bar, etc.) begs the question: why so many?

One more fan of 1095 and why...he designed the Tops Bushcrafter Kukuri.

 

[frankieswanson]

Nice

 

[Dr Rez]

1. My guess is that it is cheap enough to manufacture, sell and stand by lifetime warranty, while still making profit
2. abundant supply so you can make millions selling thousands of 1095 Kabar etc, vs selling thousands of other steels
3. Easy to work with and heat treat relative to other steels

This is 100% the correct answer. People want it as its reputation far exceeds its ability. Its cheap and plenty-full. Its easy to grind. Its easy to heat treat reliably and consistantly. You can make a ton of money selling it.

 

[Deino]

I wonder if Larrin will do some more test sample with the 4116/X50CrMoV15 steel, considering it has about the same C and Cr as 420HC, while getting other good elements that is known to make the difference from one to an other even with a small amount.

Everytime I link Larrin's website, I find it unsettling as some thinking that it is poor 420 grade. While, in reality, it is widely used by quality makers.

 

[chalby]

I wonder if Larrin will do some more test sample with the 4116/X50CrMoV15 steel, considering it has about the same C and Cr as 420HC, while getting other good elements that is known to make the difference from one to an other even with a small amount.

Everytime I link Larrin's website, I find it unsettling as some thinking that it is poor 420 grade. While, in reality, it is widely used by quality makers.

I think you are overestimating 4116 and underestimating 420HC.

420HC is widely used by quality makers as well, but both are fairly basic budget steels. Nothing wrong with them, but nothing special either.

 

[DeadboxHero]

I wonder if Larrin will do some more test sample with the 4116/X50CrMoV15 steel, considering it has about the same C and Cr as 420HC, while getting other good elements that is known to make the difference from one to an other even with a small amount.

Everytime I link Larrin's website, I find it unsettling as some thinking that it is poor 420 grade. While, in reality, it is widely used by quality makers.

What do those other elements do?

 

[Dr Rez]

I wonder if Larrin will do some more test sample with the 4116/X50CrMoV15 steel, considering it has about the same C and Cr as 420HC, while getting other good elements that is known to make the difference from one to an other even with a small amount.

Everytime I link Larrin's website, I find it unsettling as some thinking that it is poor 420 grade. While, in reality, it is widely used by quality makers.

IIRC he did, and the samples were extremely different in grain size leading to very different results.

 

[Larrin]

4116 has 2% more chromium than 420HC which is a significant difference. That makes it more difficult to control the carbide size. I think the carbide structure could have been better than in the bar that I had. But if my bar was like that then there are certainly others.

 

[Dr Rez]

4116 has 2% more chromium than 420HC which is a significant difference. That makes it more difficult to control the carbide size. I think the carbide structure could have been better than in the bar that I had. But if my bar was like that then there are certainly others.

I have seen a few older videos from Crucible detailing the CPM process in one of their factories. Would really like to see something more recent from any one of the steel giants. I suppose they dont want to reveal too much however.

Side note: While I love my Knife Engineering book, when are we getting the audiobook version? Lmk if you need me to send over some tea and throat lozenges before hand.

 

[Larrin]

I have seen a few older videos from Crucible detailing the CPM process in one of their factories. Would really like to see something more recent from any one of the steel giants. I suppose they dont want to reveal too much however.

Side note: While I love my Knife Engineering book, when are we getting the audiobook version? Lmk if you need me to send over some tea and throat lozenges before hand.

I don’t think audio is a good format for Knife Engineering since so much of it relies on charts and images.

 

[Dr Rez]

I don’t think audio is a good format for Knife Engineering since so much of it relies on charts and images.

Haha sorry, I should have put a /s.

Definitely not the subject matter for an audiobook...unless you got someone like Steve Downes (masterchief's voice)...

 

[Larrin]

Haha sorry, I should have put a /s.

Definitely not the subject matter for an audiobook...unless you got someone like Steve Downes (masterchief's voice)...

It is possible to make something for audio but it would have to be made with that in mind I think.