I Tested the Edge Retention of 48 Steels

Larrin said:
It is possible to make something for audio but it would have to be made with that in mind I think.
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I'd definitely listen to it if you did decide to do a spin of it in audio. Some of us have plenty of time to listen to podcasts and books while we're working, but not too much time to read when we're off. Just thought I'd say I'd be a customer since it was brought up.
 
LimpCroissant said:
I'd definitely listen to it if you did decide to do a spin of it in audio. Some of us have plenty of time to listen to podcasts and books while we're working, but not too much time to read when we're off. Just thought I'd say I'd be a customer since it was brought up.
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Me too. I spend a lot of time driving. Podcasts and audio books are a thing for me.
 
Hello Larrin!

Hope you and yours are doing well.

You state that 'a used CATRA' machine was used. Have you repeated your research with a 'new CATRA' machine?

Would this make a diiference?

Did this make a difference?


Did you involve any of your mentors or fellow researchers in the study?

If so, what are their conclusions?
 
Delgadonine said:
Hello Larrin!

Hope you and yours are doing well.

You state that 'a used CATRA' machine was used. Have you repeated your research with a 'new CATRA' machine?

Would this make a diiference?

Did this make a difference?


Did you involve any of your mentors or fellow researchers in the study?

If so, what are their conclusions?
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knifesteelnerds.com

Testing the Edge Retention of 48 Knife Steels - Knife Steel Nerds

I tested the edge retention of 48 knife steels using the same knife design and sharpening. Which steels cut the longest? Which are the most balanced?
knifesteelnerds.com knifesteelnerds.com

A little more info here regarding the catra process fyi
 
The CATRA test is standardized so it is a fixed weight of the card stock on the knife, a fixed stroke length, and a fixed speed. So as long as the machine is operating at those parameters it doesn’t matter what the age of the machine is.
 
Larrin said:
The CATRA test is standardized so it is a fixed weight of the card stock on the knife, a fixed stroke length, and a fixed speed. So as long as the machine is operating at those parameters it doesn’t matter what the age of the machine is.
Click to expand...
Thank you.

When I don't know, I ask.
 
Hi there, steel nerds ;)
I'd be very much appreciated if anybody can help.

So the thing is I'm a hiker & landscape photographer, thus I prefer stainless, light yet sturdy blades. Among others I have two favs for my hikes: chinese Ruike Hornet (105 g)
dsc06171-jpg.21669949
- a real lightweight backpacking champ & spanish Muela Kodiak II
dsc07111jpg_proc-jpg.21669972
- declared as a handmade, a bit heavier (186 g) but much more comfortable to grip. Both have V-edges and made of Sandvik 14C which I love a lot! It's just impossible to get em rust, piece of cake to sharpen and these blades have decent toughness, you know. But what I became interested in is a new, slightly bigger knife, convex grind, 5-6 in, same (or at least close) rust resistance as 14C has, and a lot tougher. This big boi is a really good example of what I mean, Joker Nomad
Joker-Nomad-2-23-1.jpg
The one I would be able to crush logs with, having no mercy to, being confident it won't brake though. Not much heavier desirable. Obviously, the question is the steel. Ok, if that sounds as a dreamlike alloy I'm ready to compromise in that rust resistance and even edge retention levels. Of course I heard about 3V, but probably you guys also know some other options? What your thoughts about S35VN, N695 particularly?

Please share your experience.
Thanks!
 
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Skogsnatt said:
Hi there, steel nerds ;)
I'd be very much appreciated if anybody can help.

So the thing is I'm a hiker & landscape photographer, thus I prefer stainless, light yet sturdy blades. Among others I have two favs for my hikes: chinese Ruike Hornet (105 g)
dsc06171-jpg.21669949
- a real lightweight backpacking champ & spanish Muela Kodiak II
dsc07111jpg_proc-jpg.21669972
- declared as a handmade, a bit heavier (186 g) but much more comfortable to grip. Both have V-edges and made of Sandvik 14C which I love a lot! It's just impossible to get em rust, piece of cake to sharpen and these blades have decent toughness, you know. But what I became interested in is a new, slightly bigger knife, convex grind, 5-6 in, same (or at least close) rust resistance as 14C has, and a lot tougher. This big boi is a really good example of what I mean, Joker Nomad
Joker-Nomad-2-23-1.jpg
The one I would be able to crush logs with, having no mercy to, being confident it won't brake though. Not much heavier desirable. Obviously, the question is the steel. Ok, if that sounds as a dreamlike alloy I'm ready to compromise in that rust resistance and even edge retention levels. Of course I heard about 3V, but probably you guys also know some other options? What your thoughts about S35VN, N695 particularly?

Please share your experience.
Thanks!
Click to expand...
My experience with Ruike has been very good. I suspect Sanrenmu is the OEM for their knives, and Sanrenmu (people's ethical opinions aside) make very well made stuff. Additionally they seem to do a fine job heat treating the 14c28n folders I own from Ruike.

To answer your question however, it depends on what you plan on using the knife for and what your priorities are. (Assuming the same hardness)14c28n is considerably tougher than both s35vn or n965. In order of highest edge retention to lowest it would generally go s35vn>3v>n695>14c28n with toughness being much higher for 14c28n and 3v.

Personally I find steel choice less important than blade geometry and design. What will it be used for? The nomad is quite heavy and has a tough full convex grind but will you actually need that from a knife? Do you care if it can rust? How will you be sharpening it, in the field/at home? Will you be skinning/bushcrafting with wood only/filleting/digging etc etc.

No steel is best, and no design is best...they are simply better at specific things. I highly suggest you read the Steel Ranking Charts Larrin wrote on his website as it gives a very good rough overview of most commonly found steels. I think he would be the first to agree that no steel is perfect or is the best, it's always a compromise. (Some more than others of course)
 
Much obliged, Rez!

As I mentioned above, my new knife have to be tough for some forest foolery mostly. Chopping, tinder fungus tearing and smashing etc. I agree with you on geometry is first, yet I see the steel isn't much less important, because, for instance, there are tests which show that two blades can be the same toughness being different in its thickness (like 3V vs N690).
You're also right as for the weight of the Nomad, but that's fine as I plan it just for day hikes and not for some high elevation gain multi day routes with much load on the back. Thus I'd buy Joker if I sure with the N695, but that's the whole point - it's less reliable than 14C, according to my investigation

>>> The nomad is quite heavy and has a tough full convex grind
Well not exactly, it rather has only a convex bevel
 
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Skogsnatt said:
Hi there, steel nerds ;)
I'd be very much appreciated if anybody can help.

So the thing is I'm a hiker & landscape photographer, thus I prefer stainless, light yet sturdy blades. Among others I have two favs for my hikes: chinese Ruike Hornet (105 g)
dsc06171-jpg.21669949
- a real lightweight backpacking champ & spanish Muela Kodiak II
dsc07111jpg_proc-jpg.21669972
- declared as a handmade, a bit heavier (186 g) but much more comfortable to grip. Both have V-edges and made of Sandvik 14C which I love a lot! It's just impossible to get em rust, piece of cake to sharpen and these blades have decent toughness, you know. But what I became interested in is a new, slightly bigger knife, convex grind, 5-6 in, same (or at least close) rust resistance as 14C has, and a lot tougher. This big boi is a really good example of what I mean, Joker Nomad
Joker-Nomad-2-23-1.jpg
The one I would be able to crush logs with, having no mercy to, being confident it won't brake though. Not much heavier desirable. Obviously, the question is the steel. Ok, if that sounds as a dreamlike alloy I'm ready to compromise in that rust resistance and even edge retention levels. Of course I heard about 3V, but probably you guys also know some other options? What your thoughts about S35VN, N695 particularly?

Please share your experience.
Thanks!
Click to expand...

Dr Rez said:
My experience with Ruike has been very good. I suspect Sanrenmu is the OEM for their knives, and Sanrenmu (people's ethical opinions aside) make very well made stuff. Additionally they seem to do a fine job heat treating the 14c28n folders I own from Ruike.

To answer your question however, it depends on what you plan on using the knife for and what your priorities are. (Assuming the same hardness)14c28n is considerably tougher than both s35vn or n965. In order of highest edge retention to lowest it would generally go s35vn>3v>n695>14c28n with toughness being much higher for 14c28n and 3v.

Personally I find steel choice less important than blade geometry and design. What will it be used for? The nomad is quite heavy and has a tough full convex grind but will you actually need that from a knife? Do you care if it can rust? How will you be sharpening it, in the field/at home? Will you be skinning/bushcrafting with wood only/filleting/digging etc etc.

No steel is best, and no design is best...they are simply better at specific things. I highly suggest you read the Steel Ranking Charts Larrin wrote on his website as it gives a very good rough overview of most commonly found steels. I think he would be the first to agree that no steel is perfect or is the best, it's always a compromise. (Some more than others of course)
Click to expand...

I don't have experience with N695 but 14C28N is hard to beat in a big fixed blade. It's among the toughest stainless steels. It has excellent corrosion resistance. It is relatively easy to sharpen and usually has decent edge retention.

Obviously, heat treatment matters. Lots of companies seem to run 14C28N on the softer side, like 55-58. Luckily, it doesn't seem to take as big of a hit on edge retention from being run a little soft versus M390, S35VN, etc. Lots of production knives in super steels have a target range of 58-60HRC, which is already on the low side for their optimal edge retention. Sometimes, they come in below that target range (and there can be other issues). So if you are comparing the average budget knife in 14C28N and the average $150ish production knife in S35VN or M390 with the respective edge retention ratings for those steels; the super steels tend to fall far short of expectation while the 14C28N may be surprisingly okay by contrast.

Honestly, unless we are talking about a custom or higher end knife with a great heat treatment, I'll reach for 14C28N in a harder-use fixed blade. Even then, I might request 14C28N in a larger custom. It's just amazingly well-suited to the job. Of course, David Mary David Mary 's recent use of MagnaCut in a ridiculously large fixed blade might change my mind.
 
Skogsnatt said:
Much obliged, Rez!

As I mentioned above, my new knife have to be tough for some forest foolery mostly. Chopping, tinder fungus tearing and smashing etc. I agree with you on geometry is first, yet I see the steel isn't much less important, because, for instance, there are tests which show that two blades can be the same toughness being different in its thickness (like 3V vs N690).
You're also right as for the weight of the Nomad, but that's fine as I plan it just for day hikes and not for some high elevation gain multi day routes with much load on the back. Thus I'd buy Joker if I sure with the N695, but that's the whole point - it's less reliable than 14C, according to my investigation

>>> The nomad is quite heavy and has a tough full convex grind
Well not exactly, it rather has only a convex bevel
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Ah my bad, I thought the Nomad was fully convexed. Looking at the picture I see it now...

I think the nomad looks great for a heavier use knife as long as you dont mind the weight. While I dont particularly think I would ever get n695 for a hard use knife, I would trust whatever Joker does to it. I own the Joker Montanero/Campero/Ember F all in full flat 14c28n, and each one is pretty incredible for being about 80 bucks... I did have quality issues with two however. The Campero came with the spine somewhat overground on both sides. Basically whomever ground this at the small factory they own went a little overboard. It does not affect the function however. The other just came with a thick shit edge. It had to be thinned on a stone.

I highly recommend Joker IF you are comfortable doing small correction or modifications to your knives. Personally I would go with a Varusteleka Terävä Jääkäripuukko 140. Only about 80 bucks, light AMAZING scandi 80crv2 deferentially tempered hard use fixed blade. Also comes with the best sheath I have ever seen for a knife.
 
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Chronovore, it's so nice to hear those warm words about Sandvik 14C, hehe!
Also thanks for that valuable info about Joker quality. As for $150 knife which they ask for the Nomad - I don't wanna have any issues with it.
Varusteleka Terävä Jääkäripuukko 140 - what an unreadable name😄 Translates as "Acute Gamekeeper's Knife". Never seen before, yet it seems to be a really good option. The weight is fantastic for its size. I like it. But can you tell me please, is it real to keep him out of rust? And what's even more important, will that carbon steel withstand hard use like wood chopping with it's razor like 23 degrees scandi grind? Have a little doubt out here...
 
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Skogsnatt said:
But can you tell me please, is it real to keep him out of rust? And what's even more important, will that carbon steel withstand hard use like wood chopping with it's razor like 23 degrees scandi grind? Have a little doubt out here...
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I live in the subtropics where it is insanely humid. Just dont put the blade away wet, and if you dont plan on using it for a while put a little oil on it (I still rarely do). The only time I wouldnt suggest it is if you frequently work with/in salt water.

It is by far the toughest knife I have ever owned and most others seem to have the same experience. Its hrc 59 80crv2 which is a souped up 1084...aka extremely tough. They also differently heat heat treat it so that the edge is 59 and the outside spine is roughly 52 I think. I have beat the ever living shit out of mine and never even had a chip or roll. It comes with a secondary bevel but I removed it to give it just a small microbevel...but thats up to you.
 
N695 is 440C. I'm not making it up, it is wrote on their official website: https://www.bohler-edelstahl.com/en/products/n695

Old models from Joker were simply marked 440, but nowadays, for marketing purposes, saying N695 is more catchy.

N690 on the the other hand, is slightly better than 440C/N695. Though I wouldn't use neither steel for chopping, they are better suited for slicing and hunting blades. 3V is currently looked at as the premium toughness and wear resistance for medium to bigger blades. Honestly for the size you use, most steel will do the job, hell even the 420HC Buck 120 could do as well as the JaakariPuuko.
 
Larrin Larrin

I was wondering if you could shed some light (or share your thoughts) on why steels like Blue Super performed relatively poorly in your CATRA tests compared to VG10, especially since the hardness was around 65 and 61.5 respectively on your edge retention charts. Is toughness/chipping a factor?

Most people when talking about Japanese kitchen knives tend to consider VG10(which normally is 60-61 HRC) a poor choice compared to Blue Super(which is more commonly around 63 HRC) in regards to edge retention and potential sharpness.

Another one is 14C28N compared to BD1N. I would have thought that the extra carbon content in BD1N would have given it a noticeable advantage in wear resistance at the expense of toughness.

Thank you for your contributions.
 
chalby said:
Larrin Larrin

I was wondering if you could shed some light (or share your thoughts) on why steels like Blue Super performed relatively poorly in your CATRA tests compared to VG10, especially since the hardness was around 65 and 61.5 respectively on your edge retention charts. Is toughness/chipping a factor?

Most people when talking about Japanese kitchen knives tend to consider VG10(which normally is 60-61 HRC) a poor choice compared to Blue Super(which is more commonly around 63 HRC) in regards to edge retention and potential sharpness.

Another one is 14C28N compared to BD1N. I would have thought that the extra carbon content in BD1N would have given it a noticeable advantage in wear resistance at the expense of toughness.

Thank you for your contributions.
Click to expand...
VG10 did better than Blue Super because its wear resistance is significantly higher, and the CATRA test is a wear test. Hardness also increases wear resistance, but carbides have more effect. The dotted lines in the chart show the average effect of hardness so that steels can be compared at different hardness levels. When doing that BD1N slightly outperformed 14C28N.
 
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