Kitchen Knives of choice...

[Kohai999]

Have been cooking since I was 10 years old, including a couple pro stints(fish mongering/prep cook in NY and line cook at an oyster bar/restaurant in Seattle's Pike Place Market)

Run the "usual" gauntlet....Russell/Dexters, commercial Japanese/Chinese, Wusthof/Henckles(what kind of steel DO they use?)...

It's hard to argue with Henckles warranty-"All J.A. HENCKELS INTERNATIONAL products are fully guaranteed against defects in materials and/or craftsmanship."...and I have had two pieces replaced under this warranty....BUT, they are hard to sharpen, don't hold an edge particularly well and the edge geometry is quite thick.....so...

Being a custom knife collector, I move towards custom kitchen knives, as I have friends who make them, and they are available for very reasonable prices....except.. Most of those friends work in carbon steel and carbon damascus and have discovered that I psychologically hate patina as much as I hate actual rust...and this is not good...

My buddy Thomas W. works for Kai USA/Kershaw, and turned me onto a nice Shun kitchen knife a few years ago, and I have been using this one, and others ever since....of the 14 knives in my blocks, the majority are Shun kitchen knives.

Here are the models, and the reasons that I think Shun makes the best kitchen knives available commercially:


DM-0716(got this one from Amazon.com, paid about $70.00 delivered)

VG-10 stainless steel is clad with 16 layers of SUS410 high-carbon steel on each side, producing a 33-layer rust-free Damascus look. Am not usually a fan of VG-10 but this knife has been a real performer, holding the original edge and only needing slight touch up, from time to time, edge geometry, balance, and "feel" are all superb. The 4" blade length has been optimal as my smallest kitchen knife, it is one of the knives I reach for most often, and it only gets small blemishes if left in the sink overnight. While I hate pakkawood in theory, it works quite well in application, and doesn't look that bad.


SG-0409(6" utility, or "petty" knife, retails for about $140.00 which is a LOT of money for a long paring knife, it's true)

SuperGold II steel is the most amazing stuff for a kitchen knife that I have ever found. It's amazing. Can be ground extremely thin, holds an aggressive edge superbly, and has not even developed pin spots of rust on me yet. This utility knife size and shape has been the second most reached for knife in the block(forgot to mention, have about 40 kitchen knives). The great work this knive does on vegetables and slicing meats paper thin makes it an absolute joy to use.

BDM0004(5" Kramer Utility, only available from Sur la Table, $189.00 delivered) pic is unavailable

Not a bad price, wide 5" utility blade, like a mini chefs knife. I hated the handle when I got it, and spent hours thinning it down. Apparently, the Japanese responsible for making it, did not get Bob Kramer's intent, and kept the handle fat like the chef's knife, which was bad. Thusly thinned, it is a responsive knife....not a daily user, but wonderful when needed.

SG0403(6 1/2" SGII Santoku)

For my personal use, I thinned the tip from the spine down to make it pointier, as that is preference for a santoku. This knife has been used extensively on hard cheese, vegetable, meats and even slicing pizza. It is amazingly light, almost too light. It does however, cut like a lightsaber, and of the many santokus that I have owned, including two customs, it gets "best in class".

BDM-0001(Bob Kramer Shun Super Gold II 8" Chef's Knife, retails for $340.00 at Sur la Table)

If I could only own one kitchen knife, this would be THE ONE. It's beautiful, balances superbly, feels great in the hand, for 5 minutes or 5 hours. The blade is almost 2 1/2" wide, which makes it excel at scooping up chopped foods. The edge geometry is perfect for a home cook, or a professional who pays attention to what the edge is hitting....too many shots against a stainless steel prep surface, and you are very much looking at a chipped edge. The hook at the end of the handle minimizes slippage and the oversized, contoured shape keeps it from twisting. A friend gave me an 80+lb yellowfin tuna this past fall, and I had no specific knives on hand to dress it out....Used the Kramer and Onion slicer and didn't have a lot of waste when I was done.

DM-0504(Ken Onion 9" Slicer, available from Overstock.com for $226.99)

Just a wonderful slicer....of course not used everyday, but for big birds, large roasts, or that massive tuna mentioned above, this knife never fails, and I love looking at it.

Thanks for reading, and

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[Twindog]

That Kramer Shun Super Gold II 8" Chef is one beautiful knife. I have a number of Shun knives. They replaced a rather ordinary set of cheap Henckles that I had been using. The Shuns are nice, but stainless is such a step behind the top-grade carbon steels that those are what I now prefer.

Have you tried the super blue steels, especially with a rough finish? They're easy to keep from rusting and any patina just doesn't show up. What's nice, is that they can be made super hard and super thin, so they cut extremely well and hold their edge for a long time. Re-sharpening is a breeze. They are not too hardy, but incredible to use.

 

[Kohai999]

Have you tried the super blue steels, especially with a rough finish? They're easy to keep from rusting and any patina just doesn't show up. What's nice, is that they can be made super hard and super thin, so they cut extremely well and hold their edge for a long time. Re-sharpening is a breeze. They are not too hardy, but incredible to use.

The only one that I have tried was a Murray Carter, and I did find that it developed patina, so that got put up as well.

What aspects of the top carbon steels do you find superior to SGII?

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[Twindog]

What aspects of the top carbon steels do you find superior to SGII?

I don't remember using SGII. I have used 3G and some of the higher end stainless steels. I really like M390 in a folder.

But the Takeda AS or the Kumagoro in forged Takefu V2 (layered between low-carbon steel) get sharper and hold their sharpness better than any stainless I've tried. They are extremely easy to resharpen, making sharpening fun again.

Yes, they do require extra care, and often I'll use stainless because I'm in a hurry. But there is something about top grade Japanese carbon steels, borne out of centuries of experience and crafted by real, old-time masters, that makes them a pleasure to use. Many, many generations of thought went into these steels and these knife designs.

There is a common comment in the general section about most people not being able to tell the difference between steels. I don't find that to be true. I used stainless steels in my EDC until Spyderco come out with the Military in M4. Spyderco did a great job with that steel. It gets extremely sharp and is very tough. I think it's about HRc 62. I hit some staples while cutting plastic insulation and the 30-degree edge never chipped and stayed sharp.

I got a small fixed in 52100 and thought I became the greatest knife sharpener in the world.

A knife starts with the steel. Aogami Super at HRc 64 on a super thin gyuto is really something.

 

[Kohai999]

I don't remember using SGII.

If you want to PM me an address, I'll send along the 5" Kramer for you to try, send it back when you are done.

A knife starts with the steel. Aogami Super at HRc 64 on a super thin gyuto is really something.

Hey man, no doubt on the steel, but heat treat and geometry are so important as well. I have a J.W. Smith folder in S30V with in-house heat treat that so far outshined the Sebenza heat treat, you would swear they were different steels.

I love my big Kramer so much, that there may be better knives and steels out there, but this one does what I need every time, I just don't want for anything else.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[Dago Red]

I like wusthof over henckels, I have a couple tramontina that I got for a wedding gift that actually are good home cook knives. overall though I use forschner (spelling?) the forged ones not the stamped ones.

I'd love some good custom ones though, but I'm not a stainless guy, I love carbon steel. that said, that real expensive one above is lovely.

Red

 

[omegabull]

Personally i hate shun knives. They are fairly uncomfortable and their vg10 steel is mediocre. I greatly dislike that if held in the classic chef position (slightly above the handle holding the spine for control) the flared end of the tang that mets the handle cuts into your fingers. They are only collector pieces in my opinion not true to form chef knives. For a beautiful but functional damascus chef knife i would go with the calphalon samurai series. These are under a hundred dollars and outperform shun's knives in my experience (countless meals prepared with the 8 inch chef and 4inch utility). The vg1 steel on these is higher carbon, which is more preferable for use in cooking, even though rust may come off as problem.

 

[Kohai999]

Personally i hate shun knives. They are fairly uncomfortable and their vg10 steel is mediocre. I greatly dislike that if held in the classic chef position (slightly above the handle holding the spine for control) the flared end of the tang that mets the handle cuts into your fingers. They are only collector pieces in my opinion not true to form chef knives. For a beautiful but functional damascus chef knife i would go with the calphalon samurai series. These are under a hundred dollars and outperform shun's knives in my experience (countless meals prepared with the 8 inch chef and 4inch utility). The vg1 steel on these is higher carbon, which is more preferable for use in cooking, even though rust may come off as problem.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, I find them sorely lacking in the looks department.

Are you saying that the spine of Shun's cuts into your hand or the bolster or both, because I frequently have to round the spines of the vast majority of the knives that I use anyway?

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[silenthunterstudios]

My kitchen knives aren't anything fancy, but they get the job done. I have a Cold Steel Long Hunter that I have converted to use as a kitchen knife, it is still too thick for fine work. I also have a few Old Hickorys, a Spyderco picnic knife that I use as a paring knife, and a Spyderco kitchen knife, that I haven't seen in any catalogs. 5-6" blade, stamped Japan.

The ones I really use are a set of Tramontinas. One of the santoku types, a paring knife, and a steak knife. Great, inexpensive set, made of stainless steel (do they know what it is even?). I would like to pick up a few of the Kai cermaic colored blades for a gift for Mothers Day for my mother. I just picked up a Carvel Hall Japan block set.

 

[macmiddlebrooks]

I agree. I use this combo.....works so well I don't even look at other kitchen knives

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/21ux93VKfVL._SL500_AA300_.jpg

 

[Morrow]

I have way too many knives in my kitchen rotation but....

My Shun's.....I have a nakiri also that isn't pictured.

Top to bottom:

Heavy duty pairing knife from John Greco ( I have three of these and love them )
Utility knife made by Chris Moss
Big 10'' chef's knife by J. Neilson

A yanagiba by Philip Dobson

A gyuto by J. Neilson

 

[Morrow]

Personally i hate shun knives. They are fairly uncomfortable and their vg10 steel is mediocre. I greatly dislike that if held in the classic chef position (slightly above the handle holding the spine for control) the flared end of the tang that mets the handle cuts into your fingers. They are only collector pieces in my opinion not true to form chef knives. For a beautiful but functional damascus chef knife i would go with the calphalon samurai series. These are under a hundred dollars and outperform shun's knives in my experience (countless meals prepared with the 8 inch chef and 4inch utility). The vg1 steel on these is higher carbon, which is more preferable for use in cooking, even though rust may come off as problem.

To each their own...but since you shared your opinion I'll share mine. I've tried several of the Calphalon Samurai series and found them adequate but nothing special. Their clad VG-1 steel was satisfactory and easy to sharpen but the knives are simply too thick with obtuse edges. I think they are sharped to a 44 degree inclusive angle....that's simply to thick for a high performance kitchen cutlery considering the steel is capable of sustaining a more acute angle. You compared them to Shun knives and setting aside the ergonomic issue (personal preference), they don't compare to Shun knives in overall performance in my experience. YMMV.

 

[Mykel]

You can never have to many kitchen knives.i have spent many years in the kitchen and have been inspired by the very knife i am using at the time as if they speak. Love your collection. Cook under the influance of inspiration.

 

[J_Curd]

Personally i hate shun knives. They are fairly uncomfortable and their vg10 steel is mediocre. I greatly dislike that if held in the classic chef position (slightly above the handle holding the spine for control) the flared end of the tang that mets the handle cuts into your fingers. They are only collector pieces in my opinion not true to form chef knives.

Where do I start.

Nevermind.

I'll leave it at "you know not of what you speak".

 

[PG5768]

Personally i hate shun knives. They are fairly uncomfortable and their vg10 steel is mediocre. I greatly dislike that if held in the classic chef position (slightly above the handle holding the spine for control) the flared end of the tang that mets the handle cuts into your fingers. They are only collector pieces in my opinion not true to form chef knives. For a beautiful but functional damascus chef knife i would go with the calphalon samurai series. These are under a hundred dollars and outperform shun's knives in my experience (countless meals prepared with the 8 inch chef and 4inch utility). The vg1 steel on these is higher carbon, which is more preferable for use in cooking, even though rust may come off as problem.

Hate's a pretty strong feeling to have towards a brand of kitchen knives. Sorry you feel that way, but I think morrowj's and kohai's opinions carry a little more weight, at least with me.

Personally, I don't own any Shun kitchen knives. My wife and daughters chose Wustof for my Christmas gifts and they seem to meet my needs in the kitchen fairly well. I do find myself using my my Kershaw Pure Komachi 2 knives for most of my routine kitchen tasks.

 

[C-9]

"All J.A. HENCKELS INTERNATIONAL products ... they are hard to sharpen, don't hold an edge particularly well and the edge geometry is quite thick.....so...

Buy the cheapest ones. Quite thin, and comparable to the grinds of many Japanese made knives. Steel is lousy, but its not too bad to sharpen, and it can be maintained on a steel. Good beater for $10.

I would have to disagree with you on the best commercial knives though. Shun does make the best knives that are mainstream production and readily available in American department stores though.

 

[kneedeep]

So far, our Shun Bob Kramer knives have been exemplary. The SG2 has been phenomenal, I've barely had to touch them up since we got them. Nothing else in my kitchen even comes close.

I want to say that I remember that the SG2 in the Kramers is treated to around 64 HRC, though the Sur La Table site says 64-66 HRC.

Here's the 7" Santoku.

We also have the 6" Chef's and the Kramer 10" Bread knife.
My girlfriend finds the handles to be quite comfortable (she doesn't let me use them a lot

It seemed like overkill to get the Shun Bob Kramer 10" Bread knife, but I have to say I've never seen a knife go through crusty artisan bread (she bakes a lot) quite like this one.

 

[C-9]

On a related note, even though it isn't stainless, Henckels is starting production on a line that is supposed to be nearly identical to the basic Kramer knives made from 52100, $400 for a 10" or something like that.

 

[moonblades]

Mr. Garsson,

Thank you and all the contributors to this thread for your views on chef's cutlery. As a maker, it is helpful for me to keep up with current thoughts and opinions on kitchen cutlery from those who use a wide variety of knives, and therefore, have more opportunity to contrast and compare. (I don't have the budget to do that, after this long as a knife maker.)

Is there something about the design of the Kramer, beyond steel alloy/heat treating, that makes them particularly desirable? I would guess edge geometry is tops and ergonomics is a close second. Your input is appreciated.

Cheers!
Moon

 

[SShepherd]

Personally i hate shun knives. They are fairly uncomfortable and their vg10 steel is mediocre. I greatly dislike that if held in the classic chef position (slightly above the handle holding the spine for control) the flared end of the tang that mets the handle cuts into your fingers. They are only collector pieces in my opinion not true to form chef knives. For a beautiful but functional damascus chef knife i would go with the calphalon samurai series. These are under a hundred dollars and outperform shun's knives in my experience (countless meals prepared with the 8 inch chef and 4inch utility). The vg1 steel on these is higher carbon, which is more preferable for use in cooking, even though rust may come off as problem.

could you explain what you mean by "more preferable for use in cooking?"