Should PayPal Gift Option be permitted for sales?

[bld522]

Options. It's all about options. The more that exist, the better the odds are that a deal will be consummated at a price both parties consider fair. And no, raising my price on the contingency that someone "might" use PayPal to pay for it isn't just silly IMO . . . it's unfair. If a buyer doesn't want to use PayPal and a seller doesn't insist on it, neither should have to pay for it.

 

[PayneTrain]

Right. They're just not BF's rules. And BF has chosen not to enforce anybody's rules but their own. Unless and until they do, this debate will continue unabated.

PS: Just because a rule exists doesn't make it a good rule.

Just like torrent sites don't enforce copyright laws, and are constantly fighting legal battles and pleading sweet ignorance and inability to police everyone. Don't get me wrong, I am a surly pirate myself and I love the righteousness that we hide behind. I just think BF is classier than that, to remain a safe harbor for fraudulent transactions because we don't agree with Paypal's terms. I don't know if they have the authority or ability to take action on BF for condoning the misuse, but it would be a damn shame if they did.

Again, if you don't like it, don't use it. There are alternatives. Perhaps if they lose enough business, maybe they'll make a change. But for now, using gift for the sale of an item is wrong and shouldn't be done. And in my eyes, it really detracts from the integrity of the Exchange. Do we really want it to be a sleazy black market of crooks where the only way to buy something is to break the rules or pay extra, thereby breaking the rules? Again, BF is classier than that.

 

[bld522]

Let's see if I've got this right. PayPal forces me to raise my price to cover a payment method that may not be used to consummate a transaction and I'm the crook?

 

[JCP1969]

No I don't think so,

I think if you use paypal exclusively. The seller should use TYD. Unless shipping choices are optional and could affect costs.

This is about the use of the gift option in store fronts , we shouldn't limit whats sellers and buyers agree to in the deal itself.

If something goes wrong and it comes to the GBU. Hopefully neither party will bring up PP gift. That could be bad for all involved.

 

[bld522]

. . . we shouldn't limit whats sellers and buyers agree to in the deal itself.

Thank you! State your net price, indicate that payment arrangements, shipping methods, insurance and so forth will be negotiated via PM or e-mail, and call it a day. Then what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas.

 

[JCP1969]

I hope you understand my view in context.

There isn't a rule as of yet, so you could be an Example of how to use NET without using % of fees or Gift option .I believe It can be non offensive and helpful to developing relationships .

If I choose to enter a deal with Net and the gift option is suggested behind closed doors. I will be posting my exiting and why. I will be bothered.

Just as if I was the seller and I used either TYD or NTM and a buyer requested gift as an option. I will Exit and explain why its still available.

If you as a seller insist on sharing fees, I only see a problem if you use Gift as a way to divert the fees on either side. I would have a problem if the use of Gift is brought to light by either side. It takes 2 to tango , properly, so I have heard.

 

[bld522]

No worries. Moral sensibilities are part of what's sounded out during negotiations. If you don't like the gift option, you can always begin your conversation by simply saying so and sweeping that option off the table. Then you can continue to negotiate the terms of the transaction without getting any parts of your anatomy caught in a ringer or feeling the need to expose the other party for the scoundrel that they are. After all, your intention in entering into a negotiation should be to purchase or sell a product, not start a fight. For my part, everything's negotiable. And I'll be damned if the people I do business with don't seem to appreciate that.

 

[JCP1969]

lol, That is a good way to put it. My opinion on not limiting a seller and buyers options ends with what we consider to be below board. I'd be sensible when it comes to that part of my anatomy. I also wouldn't want to take one to the face either. It could be bad for business.

I think its been well stated. The objective is DO NO HARM!

 

[bld522]

Right. The only thing I'd add to that is PLAY FAIR!

 

[hhmoore]

I still have a difficult time understanding why some people are fixated on the phrase net price (and its various iterations). Whatever happened to just plain ol' price? The concept is relatively simple - you, as a seller, designate how much you want for your item...that's the price. If you need to itemize everything, do it; then roll it all into the price. If you post a number in your thread, I will either pay it, or not. If you try to add to that number after I express interest, I'm done talking to you...and will, in all likelihood, not even open your ads in the future. (The obvious exception being if the price is posted as "+ shipping"; obviously, in that case, it is expected that shipping costs will be discussed and added.)
If I try to negotiate price, and I get close to your margin - it's perfectly acceptable to ask how I intend to pay. I have no problem with being told I can't go that low with PayPal due to the fees - then I can either walk away, increase my offer (or consider counter offer), or change payment methods without the seller ever crossing lines.

 

[JCP1969]

hhmoore,
for me I am comfortable with TYD .Its all I have ever used since I started selling. I am not comfortable assuming that it will work fairly for everyone. I think we should judge/ yes judge the intent. If they decide to blanket the use of TYD pricing I will be fine and it will make it easier. However . I still consider Bld522's point valid. I can't help that. The guys head is that big for a reason.
This thread was about the gift option. I still stand behind my vote. NO Gift Option allowed for goods. Anywhere. If its part of a behind the scenes deal and it comes out. I think there should be infractions on both parties. If it became a rule.
.

 

[Brisket]

For those of you that want to have a reduced price for money orders why not state in the offering a TYD paypal goods price and a note to contact the seller for other payment alternatives? I've purchased knives off the exchange in my area in person and paid a cash price less than the stated price in the offering since there would be no shipping, packaging or financial intermediary expenses. I don't know what percentage of exchange sales are by money order or cash but I would guess they are small in comparison to paypal sales. Seems like an easy workaround to me while still being able to ban paypal gift purchases for goods.

 

[bld522]

For those of you that want to have a reduced price for money orders why not state in the offering a TYD paypal goods price and a note to contact the seller for other payment alternatives?

Because if a seller attempts to negotiate a lower cost payment alternative with the buyer, the seller is violating PayPal's TOS. If the seller is willing to accept PayPal as a payment option, then the price the seller posts has to be THE price, not a price that's reducible based on selecting some other payment option.

 

[hhmoore]

I agree entirely. The gift option has no place in any classifieds; and that really is separate issue from fees (but, in fairness, the conversation was encompassing both).
While, as a moderator on another large site, I approach the idea of such rules/bans with reservation, the wording of the original poll left little other choice. Choosing to "Allow it", after specifically adding statements against it just doesn't make sense to me. I come from a different marketplace, where even casual sellers are expected to follow "standards" - the difference is that there seems to be more willingness to say no to a deal, and simply not purchase from sellers that can't get it right. It shouldn't have to be a banned and punishable practice...the community has spoken strongly against it, all they have to do is show that it isn't all talk. (Somebody in one of these threads mentioned mentioned everybody else getting/having more knives - and that attitude is part of the issue. Too many people aren't willing to let that knife go; so they simply comply with what should be unacceptable seller requirements)

 

[LEGION 12]

After reading some of this again today went to the exchange their is some people asking 4% FEES they should be ignored and not dealt with by anyone until they learn.

 

[pbcg]

After reading some of this again today went to the exchange their is some people asking 4% FEES they should be ignored and not dealt with by anyone until they learn.

:thumbup:

 

[Greykilt]

.......... that is what many folks are afraid of. That it would put an excessive and undue burden on the mods. I don't think it would though. Making a simple declaration of placing responsibility on the buyer to use Paypal as intended and a warning if used otherwise their protection becomes void on their decision. That is basically what is in the rules now. Just very briefly stated........I'd hope more people would try and have some understanding of how to protect themselves when buying stuff online, but it seems there are a large number of people that seem to think that we are their buyer protection.

I feel most buyers are just too new to really know what's going on. Most sellers have been here way longer than buyers. How many times do you buyers with zero feedback and brand new to the forums buying knives? How many times have you seen sellers with zero feedback and brand new to the forums selling knives? I honestly truly believe if you put the rules and burden on the sellers all these problems will never happen. This thread has taught me a lot and I really appreciate all what you guys have wrote and clarify here.

I agree with you Pellel, and appreciate that you and folks do care enough about the community to voice their opinions good or otherwise. :thumbup:

.......I agree with all said but I do not agree with banning or regulating choices. I'm not entirely convinced that it is BF job to determine morality or ethics decisions between members, users, and individuals. It feels like there is this implied 'forced to do' faction. If you want a Benchmade or a Busse or a Chris Reeves or etc. You can simply go to that dedicated website and purchase it with a credit card and if dissatisfied your CC certainly has consumer satisfaction options. Now if you want it cheaper than offered private sale of a used product might be your option of choice but you get to make that choice and if you want it then you are bound by the sellers terms. If you don't like the terms then don't purchase. Done. I'm buying a knife right know with a money order. If it doesn't arrive then I will exercise my options that I have in place to protect myself. (Hee Hee Hee, Monster) Private Sale is a privilege and if a member wants to use his privilege who am I to interfere. Rules are NOT law. There is no PayPal law enforcement agency. Does BF need to fill that role? There is way too much interchange of the terms 'rules' & 'laws'. If you 'gift' someone for an actual 'goods purchase' well shame on you, bad boy. Is it BF's job to sanction that? Do we next slap cigarettes out of each others hands, too? There bad for ya. Naughty boy....
The easist way to stop a practice is to stop practicing it. You ever drive by a new restaurant and see just a few cars parked in the lot? Several weeks of that go by and one day a for sale sign goes up in the window. If you want to shut it down then don't patronize it. No customers = no product. But again I really do not need a Moderator to instruct me on morality. Dont you think they have enough to do?
Perhaps that should go into the Membership Agreement we all have to agree to, maybe the last line could read:
...now remember you musn't be naughty and cheat PayPal , a financial entity we have no ties to, out of their fees. Okay?...
Honestly, is that necessary? If I'm defrauded, dooped, swindled, cheated, etc. It will become my mission in life to sing it from the rooftops. As JCP states above I warn the community. When I buy from the BF exchange I read the users/sellers profile. I read his posts. I review his reviews. I PM other members who's judgement I trust. I really don't need a Moderator to hold my hand. Isn't that seatbelt alarm the most annoying thing to have in your new car? Well if you put the seatbelt on then you don't hear it anymore. At 59 I can put my own seatbelt on. I buried my Daddy two years ago. Savvy?...
(respectfully submitted with regards to every moderator on this forum. You too Son, love ya..)

Isn't this thread still active in "Feedback: Good, Bad, and Ugly"? Based on the poll so far the majority is leaning towards a rule being made to forbid the Paypal gift option for Sales transactions. Has anybody let PayPal know how much we are concerned about them. Maybe we could all sign a hallmark card, put a little ribbon on it. We could even slide in a prepaid PayPal gift card to show our adoration......wait, that won't work, we just voted on No Gifting.....

My attorney , the wisest most intelligent person I know, I refer all my legal, moral, and ethical questions to her, said:
".Why does an internet forum need to monitor rules of private enterprise? Do they have a vested interest? Are they linked in commerce? When non profits cosponsor commercial enterprise then that NPO should refile under LLC and endeavor profit sharing as the one is declaring allegiance to the other. Is Blade Forums now going to be a Liason for Customer PayPal dissatisfaction issues?"

As I don't now or ever have purchased Goods and Services with PayPal 'gift' because its unethical and I want to be a good man I'll pass on the vote. I'm able to monitor myself as to my own morality and ethical behavior.
G...

 

[Brisket]

Because if a seller attempts to negotiate a lower cost payment alternative with the buyer, the seller is violating PayPal's TOS. If the seller is willing to accept PayPal as a payment option, then the price the seller posts has to be THE price, not a price that's reducible based on selecting some other payment option.

I understand that however in that scenario the discount/surcharge would at least not be out in the open. It should be noted that I am not recommending that practice but merely presenting a less conspicuous method for accepting money orders at a lower price. That being said, I am far less concerned about section 4.6 of Paypal's TOS than I am having an exchange that no longer attracts those that take advantage of buyers.

I still don't see the problem with a single TYD price whether payment is by paypal goods or money order. If I sell a knife on the exchange for $200 by paypal goods I would net $6.10 more than I would by money order but I also receive the funds much faster and don't have to fool around with depositing or cashing the money order. That is easily worth the $6.10 from my perspective especially when I easily use up more than $6.10 of my time daily just perusing the exchange.

 

[Greykilt]

USPS Money Orders are great if knife sales are your livelihood NOT your hobby. Get a P.O.Box. Check it often. Take your parceled knives with you to Post Office. Open your mail, cash your M.O. at the postal service counter, mail customer his knife. Done. No fees of anykind, just postage. A possible scenario. One I'm sure that will get debated into the ground. Protection. No Protection et.al.

 

[Ken44]

After reading some of this again today went to the exchange their is some people asking 4% FEES they should be ignored and not dealt with by anyone until they learn.

And they'll be ignored by many. I avoid them no matter the fee amount, and plenty of others do as well.
I do see much less of it here than I once did.
Many were just doing what they see others do, but many that have seen threads like this over the past couple of years have stopped doing it.

I read above about what one's lawyer thinks about what we do here on BF. Personally I would agree with what the Blade Forum members that voted in this thread think over what any lawyer that knows nothing about the place thinks. Thats just me though.