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4.7 3V used for the first time: significant edge damage

Discussion in 'Survive! Knives' started by Macchina, Nov 5, 2017.

  1. mete

    mete Gold Member Gold Member

    Jun 10, 2003
    Should be ?
    I remember a large bearing race that had cracks but no color What happened was that the rough grind was terrible and caused the cracking. Final grind was done by a different guy who did proper work who removed color, surface problems leaving only cracks . :mad: So I the detective checked it and found the problem on a large 3' dia custom made thrust bearing !
    The problem is that in grinding too vigorously the damage happens quickly and higher than you expect .What happens on the edge and especially the tip takes only a very short time .
    The German metallurgist/knife maker Roman Landes has studied this carefully and found it's very easy to temper back the tip and edge of a knife . People are very surprised how easy. Therefor slow down, take your time , wet grind even by hand if you can , especially the last part of the sharpening !!
     
    Macchina likes this.
  2. Riz!

    Riz!

    May 5, 2014
    Im curious why the edge appears to be discolored where the chip is? Maybe its the angle of the photo? Can you show more of a side profile of the chip? Also when you separated those ball joints did you wedge the knife in and pry at all?

    Your experience is definitely out of the ordinary for 3V.

    Understand that the thickness behnd that edge is going to be significantly thinner than a buck or a fallkniven. Ide imagine that if you thinned those blades to the same dimension as the GSO you would see SIGNIFICANTLY worse damage.

    I am curious how this pans out.
     
    mbkingshane, CataD and chiral.grolim like this.
  3. Macchina

    Macchina Gold Member Gold Member

    Apr 7, 2006
    That does make sense, especially if you see the color and grind it away a bit slower. Good advice.
     
  4. Macchina

    Macchina Gold Member Gold Member

    Apr 7, 2006
    It's some faint surface rust. The blood from my deer was on the blade for a couple hours before I was able to make hot water to clean it. Blood is a surprisingly strong oxidizer.

    When I separate a joint I only cut to the joint then twist to break it. I've found putting your knife in the joint does no good at all to separate it.
     
  5. Brian77

    Brian77 KnifeMaker / Craftsman / Service Provider Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider

    Nov 27, 2014
    I saw that picture. I was puzzled by that. We have had zero issues with CPK 3 v in any knife. And also with BRK 3v. And we do hit bone, pop joints, etc v and it's part of the job.

    I would suggest sharpening it back, and using it again soon. See what happens.
     
  6. chiral.grolim

    chiral.grolim Universal Kydex Sheath Extension Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider

    Dec 2, 2008
    Yup, sharpen back and try again would be my advice :thumbsup: These GSOs tend to come VERY sharp and relatively thin behind the edge (<20-dps, ~0.020" shoulder). My long-distance arm-chair suspicion is that the edge cut into the bone deeper than usual and experienced a bit of twist coming out, resulting in the chips observed. If you add a microbevel or simply strop the apex thoroughly after sharpening your preferred way (same difference), I'd expect that to solve the problem. If it does not, something is afoot.

    At ~9:10 in this video, I start bashing my GSO-5.1 (same 3V as in your 4.7) through sheet metal. I experience no visible edge damage and the blade would still cut paper easily.

    Edit to add
    : I did not expect the edge to go undamaged, that really surprised me. I think that if I had hammered it in and then tried sudden twists with the apex held tight by the metal, i might have been able to induce damage... but it did not happen in the video, and that does tell one something about the expected durability of the steel.

     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2017
    alinla, OBX351, Fancier and 3 others like this.
  7. Macchina

    Macchina Gold Member Gold Member

    Apr 7, 2006
    That's the thing: no matter what it's on Survive if they mucked the heat treat during sharpening or whatever. I was on an island with this knife as my only fixed blade and the edge was completely dulled, chipped, and bent by a single deer processing. Only the bend shows up in the pictures but the ENTIRE edge is way out of shape.

    3V is supposed to be the ultimate in toughness. If a 3V blade can't process a single deer without damaging the edge then I can't trust it at all. First sharpening or not: I have no other knife that performed this task worse than this Survive 4.7.

    I still haven't heard from Guy.
     
  8. Macchina

    Macchina Gold Member Gold Member

    Apr 7, 2006
    I tried to capture more of the edge deformations here. You can't see them all in one picture but there are 8 chips, bends, dents, etc. There is also a lot more surface rust than I expected for leaving blood on the blade for a couple hours. I expect staining, not rust.

    IMG_20171107_225252~2-01.jpeg
     
  9. Teppojutsu

    Teppojutsu

    942
    Jan 18, 2015
    It just sucks having to sharpen Back a premium knife to get to the "unaffected" "good" steel underneath lol.
    mine wasnt a survive! but it was fresh from the maker i still javent sharpend mine to get to the good stuff?

    Should the knives be sold dull to be "hand" sharpend by the customer?

    Im not trying to stir the pot .

    In his situation being on an island and expecting it to work would piss me off too lol
     
  10. supertac916

    supertac916

    602
    Sep 6, 2014
    Strange, sounds like there might be some issues with the HT. I've used my 4.7s in CFV and 20cv, but haven't used mine in 3v yet. Although all of my other S!K's haven't had issues. I'm out in CO right now doing some hiking and fishing. I brought one of my 4.7s in 3v as my primary. I plan to use it to break down some firewood, so I'll see if it holds up. Sucks that your blade chipped out on one deer. I'm not a Hunter, but have seen others perform well. Hopefully, Guy and Ellie will get back to you. I'm interested to see how their customer service is on their warranty
     
  11. CataD

    CataD Platinum Member Platinum Member

    Oct 2, 2013
    Hard Knocks likes this.
  12. Macchina

    Macchina Gold Member Gold Member

    Apr 7, 2006
    The island was in fresh water, the rust isn't a big issue, just a surprise for me. My other knife (a GEC pocket knife) was 1095 and didn't get a spec of rust.

    The deer was stalked to within 15 yards before I heart shot him. Not a trophy on the mainland but I was very happy with him on the island!

    FB_IMG_1510116210785.jpg
     
  13. CataD

    CataD Platinum Member Platinum Member

    Oct 2, 2013
    Gotcha, nice pic! Cheers!
     
  14. Hard Knocks

    Hard Knocks Gold Member Gold Member

    Oct 1, 2012
    That is a very cool picture.
     
    chiral.grolim likes this.
  15. 91bravo

    91bravo Gold Member Gold Member

    Jun 29, 2008
    Nice buck and nice Marlin too!
     
    MarriedTheMedic likes this.
  16. Oyster

    Oyster Gold Member Gold Member

    Aug 2, 2011
    Deleted
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2017
  17. Fancier

    Fancier

    Jul 1, 2012
    I hope that this knife gets back to Survive for evaluation because I suspect that Guy would like to sharpen it up and beat on it for a while.
    If he can reproduce this damage under controlled conditions I would be very interested in hearing his thoughts.
    Please don't let this issue drop because I would find it very educational to hear a response from Survive.
    Thanks!
     
    Oyster likes this.
  18. Kyle363

    Kyle363 Gold Member Gold Member

    144
    Dec 11, 2016
    I would think if this was a heat treat issue it wouldn't be one knife that was affected since they would be heat treated in large batches. I have a Carothers LC in delta 3v that only has very minor chipping with no rolls after heavy chopping tasks. I also have 4 other 3v knives 2 LT Wright and 2 Adventure Sworn. I've had damage to my LT wright twice first occurrence was contact with concrete which left minor chips. Second occurrence was from me using the knife to cross baton a small tree on a backpacking trip and I must have went though a knot. The result was a large chip and a roll. These knives were also scandi ground which is a more fragile edge and in the second case pushed past its limit. I've never had a rust issue with my 3v knives but I've never had them come in contact with blood.

    This is the damage to my GNS from what I think was from cross batoning though a knot
    [​IMG]
     
    Bmurray and chiral.grolim like this.
  19. SURVIVE! Ellie

    SURVIVE! Ellie

    Apr 21, 2014
    Actually, Jordyn just mentioned this email to us since it is not a common issue and Guy mentioned the possibility of doing a video with this knife to show what our process is for handling potential warranty issues.

    We know already that the edge heat treat was not messed up during the sharpening process because the blades never get that hot. Here are a couple old videos, but know that Guy has refined the process further. The belts and the process itself both move quite a bit slower now, for the best edge possible. There is never any discoloration of the edge/blade, we never have sparks flying, and the blade edges are never more than warm to the touch.
    and https://www.instagram.com/p/bPKg7-Jbhc/?taken-by=surviveknives

    The next step would be to get the blade in house, check the Rockwell hardness and fix the edge. Guy then tests the knife to try and recreate the damage. If the edge is stable he will clean the knife up and we send it back to the customer and chalk it up as a resharpening job. We have never had a knife be damaged again during Guy's testing but if that were to happen we would replace it with something similar and keep the knife for further testing.

    As far as rust, blood is very corrosive and even a stainless steel will show signs of staining if it isn't cleaned off of a blade quickly and/or thoroughly.

    We do get a ton of emails anytime we send out the 1st Friday Updates so it can take a few extra days to get through the entire inbox, especially if it is something unusual where Jordyn will need to ask Guy or I about it.
     
  20. Macchina

    Macchina Gold Member Gold Member

    Apr 7, 2006
    Awesome, what a cool warranty process! Feeling a lot better about this...
     

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