Andre De Villiers Butcher – BAD BUSINESS, SHADY PRACTICES – ADV Butcher Knife

[Tenacious D]

I dont buy knives OF any sort if I have heard of BAD or LACKING business practices. THAT speaks in volumes to me of the MAKERS care and or lack there of for the people that keep THEM IN BUSINESS...

Another knife maker added to my not to deal with list.

I hate when things like this happen. Particularly when it's someone who makes a knife that I really like. Time to scratch the Butcher off my wishlist.

I feel the same way. If I see others post on a particular maker, they immediately get scratched off my list, even if it's a knife I like/want. If you think about it, it normally takes some pretty egregious circumstances before something gets posted in a public forum like this. In this case, all Andre would've had to do was refund my money and I would've moved on. So even after pulling a shady move like up-charging a confirmed order, had he refunded me, this probably wouldn't have seen the light of day. In this case Andre went out of his way to make getting my refund (that he suggested) a tedious and annoying process purposefully, which truly shows the kind of man he is. For every posting you see about a complaint of a particular maker, there are usually a bunch more that have never seen the light of day. That is why I will NEVER buy from a maker who I've seen a negative review on.

 

[Tenacious D]

Sorry this happened........If it's just a random quote like "It should cost around $400" then maybe there's some wiggle room. Doesn't seem to be the case here though!

If you want something that's similar to a Butcher but on a different level, check out Randy Doucette's JEKEL... those are very nice pieces...

Definitely not the case here. I went so far as to provide him with a photo and specifically stated "exactly like this" and detailed the scales and blade I wanted twice in writing before he subsequently responded and confirmed my payment and order.

The JEKEL looks great. Thanks for the suggestion. It will have to wait a bit because I spent my "Butcher" money on a new gun

 

[Tenacious D]

I just had a very similar up charge that was sudden and very unexpected. It'll update everyone with how the refund process goes.

Tomalock - was yours with Andre too?

same here. Thanks OP for posting this, I will not buy a knife from Andre

Pittknife - Your welcome, we gotta share info in this community to help each other out. Which maker are you talking about? Would like to know so I can stay away... Thanks.

 

[sirupatespecial]

If I were a knifemaker then I wouldn't even think of taking custom orders. As some have said just make what you like and sell them.

If you make a standard pattern knife and you quote a price then it should be delivered at that price. No excuses. If you can't deliver it at the price you PROMISED(quoted) then the least you can do is refund the money. And a "I'm sorry" would help.

 

[Knifein]

If I were a knifemaker then I wouldn't even think of taking custom orders. As some have said just make what you like and sell them.

That's a good point. If you're an extremely responsible knife maker with a lot of time and good business ethic then there should be no problem with you taking custom orders.

However if you don't have the time, or lack in ethic/responsibility then you should not take custom orders and instead just make what you can whenever you have the time so you can sell it.

There is still a huge market for knife makers who work like this.

 

[Tomalock]

Tomalock - was yours with Andre too?

Now I only sent him a request for an update because of this thread. It made me a little nervous.

I ordered with Andre on for a direct sale on August 14th. He said I was on the list I asked him about color options and we decided on black handle with gold fades and stonewashed blade by August 16th. The fee was $450. No up charge was ever discussed for those options.

I sent him a message yesterday asking for an update and he said everything was ready to ship out and here is the conversation.

Me - "Ok, I've been going over all the different colors you do. I like the blackwash handles with the fade details the best, gold bronze, blue... any of those would work. No holes if possible. As for the blade I like to use my blades and sometimes black or black wash is hard to maintain. What would you recommend? can you do a stonewash with stain flats? I have one with bead blast and I can see it marks up pretty easy when I use it."

Andre - "Ok Greg, stone wash blade does hold up better?

A month later

Me - "just checking in the status of my order.

Andre - "I see you only paid $450 that for a standard model , no pimping. To do a combo blade its $50 and combo anno + $100 = $600 if you want the extras?"

Me - "Yeah that's too rich for my blood. I though it was 450. You can buy them pretty easy over here for 450. I thought the advantage of ordering from you was the little details. Thanks for the offer though and I understand you have to make money. Please refund my PayPal and ill give up my spot. Thank you again.
If possible please get back to me as soon as you can. There is some talk on forums over here about similar up charges. If you please, I really didn't expect that. If you can please let me know what is going on with PayPal today?"

Andre - "Well what would you like me to say, ? you did order a std black at $450 , and confirmed with the pic I sent you .Then afterwards you ask for upgrades , but you don;t expect to pay any extra for the extra work. Can you explain this?"

Me - "That extra cost would have needed to be explained prior. I own another butcher that I got from Skelton, I thought the black butcher was an upgraded version. I really don't want to upset you or argue or anything. I just can't afford to go into anymore than 450 at the moment. If you want to send me the regular one pictured that's fine I guess. I got used to the idea that I was getting the other one I discussed with you but I'm not an asshole or anything. At any rate the options are limited at this point to 1. A refund today. Or 2. send me a basic black butcher without the discussed options. In that case I'll have to live with your decision, but in any case I would like this resolved today."

Andre - "Sorry for the misunderstanding . Blackout Butcher are std $450 , extra colors on the frame or blade finishes do cost more . I assumed you wanted the std one which I first quoted on , and am happy to send it to you. thanks"

Now I am really not comfortable arguing with someone in South Africa about a paypal that I have no idea if I'll win or get back on dispute. On paypal it says he can draw those funds and the normal options for dispute don't seem as clear.

The real kicker is the original picture we were looking at had no holes, and now the one he wants to send has holes.. because he says that's all there is.

At this point I just don't want to have Andre never give me a knife or my funds... I kinda get the feeling that that is possible. Sorry for the long post. I probably will not support any future knives from this maker which is a shame because I like the knife.

 

[D.C.Johnson]

A lot of makers charge more for different finishes, so anyone who expects these additions for free frankly is asinine.

However i do see a problem with Andre pulling the old bait and switch maneuver, and if he continues down this path he will have a very very short career. The knife community is small and word travels fast. I hope having multiple customers bring this to his attention is a well needed wake up call.

 

[wolfmann601]

Just sell it Tomalock as soon as it arrives. Sadly he has a following that could not care less about his character, all they care about are his knives and their value in the secondary market. His $450 knives still bring $400-450 so it may not hurt too badly.

I would not hold on to his knives forever though. With the way he is conducting business his $450 knives will be worth $200 in 10 years!!!

 

[Tenacious D]

A lot of makers charge more for different finishes, so anyone who expects these additions for free frankly is asinine.

However i do see a problem with Andre pulling the old bait and switch maneuver, and if he continues down this path he will have a very very short career. The knife community is small and word travels fast. I hope having multiple customers bring this to his attention is a well needed wake up call.

In Tomalock's case, it doesn't sound to me like he was trying to get anything "for free". He was intentionally mislead, since he clearly said he wanted fade details and a stonewashed blade with satin flats and Andre accepted his payment.

In my case, there was absolutely no ambiguity at all...

Me: Hi Andre, I just sent payment for a Butcher Midtech. I would like one with Satin finish with just holes with the combo finish on the blade. Exactly like this one: <insert photo of exact knife, which Andre subsequently removed>

Andre: Ok, great, I see your payment thank you. It will be so. (exact options were also detailed in my payment notes)

Beyond that, what gives him the right to not refund my money?

 

[Tenacious D]

Just sell it Tomalock as soon as it arrives. Sadly he has a following that could not care less about his character, all they care about are his knives and their value in the secondary market. His $450 knives still bring $400-450 so it may not hurt too badly.

I would not hold on to his knives forever though. With the way he is conducting business his $450 knives will be worth $200 in 10 years!!!

Plus he is flooding the market with them so it might be a good idea to take Wolfmann's suggestion and sell while the getting is good. Also, someone posted on my JD thread that he had been researching possibly getting one and ran into quite a few reviews of people getting knives with bad finishes, scratches on the blades, etc... Sounds like Andre is making a mad grab for the cash while his one hit wonder climbs up the top 40 chart and quality is suffering because of it...

JD thread here: http://http://www.jerzeedevil.com/forums/showthread.php/157940-Andre-De-Villiers-%96-BAD-BUSINESS-SHADY-PRACTICES-%96-ADV-Butcher-Knife?p=1662917#post1662917

 

[sloth357]

Gah... I like this butcher model a bit.. was looking at getting one for $400, but won't pay more now.. I'll let things cool down and see how this ends.. also see if he continues to make knives that inspire

 

[Misanthropia]

Plus he is flooding the market with them so it might be a good idea to take Wolfmann's suggestion and sell while the getting is good. Also, someone posted on my JD thread that he had been researching possibly getting one and ran into quite a few reviews of people getting knives with bad finishes, scratches on the blades, etc... Sounds like Andre is making a mad grab for the cash while his one hit wonder climbs up the top 40 chart and quality is suffering because of it...

JD thread here: http://http://www.jerzeedevil.com/forums/showthread.php/157940-Andre-De-Villiers-%96-BAD-BUSINESS-SHADY-PRACTICES-%96-ADV-Butcher-Knife?p=1662917#post1662917

As an owner of one of the earlier Butchers (the ones marked "prototype" apparently seem to have all originated at BLADE this year), mine did in fact come with a few scratches, and heat treat scale on the blade. The heat treat scale polished off relatively easily, and the scratches could have come from the people at Knifecenter handling them.

For reasons listed in the thread, this is why I try and buy only from dealers when possible (Knifecenter sold them for the table price of $400). I'm actually surprised Andre has been able to keep up with demand pretty well, considering that lately it seems like everyone that starts getting popular in the custom knife world gets in way over their heads and then can't deliver.

 

[wolfmann601]

Reminds me a little bit of former Maker who was hot 2001-03 and his knives were in demand. Then he started to ship knives that he forgot to sharpen, ship knives with lots of defects and ship knives months and months after promising they were almost ready to ship.
I had a knife on order from this maker. In the Months after the promised date the price changed because he discovered his knives were selling quickly on the secondary market. I developed a terrible taste in my mouth for his knives and decided to sell it as soon as it arrived. Of course it arrived duller than a butter knife and some other issues and had to be sent back. As soon as I knew it was on it's way back I put it up for sale for exactly what I had into it and it sold quickly. A year later his B.S. caught up with him and in 2014 he is but a bad memory.
ADV may be well on his way to becoming another Reif, Corkum, Chew or Duncan
And so goes the days of our knives.............................

 

[Tenacious D]

.............................................................................
Andre - "Sorry for the misunderstanding.....

Translation: "Sorry I intentionally mislead you and never told you that your $450 payment to me was only a down payment on the knife you you detailed to me when you paid, and then later turn it around on you and act as though you were trying to get upgrades for free. Oh and by the way, not only will you not get the options that we originally discussed, you will not get the solid scales either. Because you as a paying customer are insignificant to me and it is not at all important that I keep track of my orders that I've committed to. The only thing that is important is how much money I get and that I get as much as possible while the sun is shining on my ass. Youre welcome!"

 

[Dawkind]

I'm still at a loss as to why folks pay ALL the $$$'s upfront for a knife on the come......weeks/months/years from completion?!?

 

[Knifein]

I'm still at a loss as to why folks pay ALL the $$$'s upfront for a knife on the come......weeks/months/years from completion?!?

Agreed.

NEVER pay the full amount up front for a custom knife. Knife makers with good ethic should not ask for full payment up front.

 

[irishpunk]

I often times ask myself...'Is this the hill I want to die on?' Most times, the answer is no. I mean no offence.

 

[Pellel2]

This is why I truly respect Jake Hoback!! He still charges people their A10 at $550 even tho they ordered theirs years ago. He still keeps his word on the price even tho he can sell then for way more.....and wait for it....most upgrades are free!!! Great man and a great maker!!

 

[RevDevil]

I'm still at a loss as to why folks pay ALL the $$$'s upfront for a knife on the come......weeks/months/years from completion?!?

True, why go directly to the manufacturer when you can buy from one of the online stores that carries a lot of different versions of said piece. I've seen this same "issue" with about 4 different makers so far.

 

[Thegunnerd]

Hi Guys
My Name is Aaron . I'm on EDCU, USN here and other places as Thegunnerd. I felt the need to step into this post and let you all in on some information. I am now the ADV service and parts rep for the US and i'm going to be a a US distributer soon. It came to my attention that someone had posted with a bad story about an experience with Andre. After talking with Andre and seeing some of the messages between him and Al ( sugar leaf ) i think there are some facts not being presented here correctly.

Facts :

Al paid for a standard butcher ( which has certain options )

When it came time to pick those options Al wanted custom options , a two tone blade and bronze two tone handle finish both custom up charges not standard

Al then became indignant because he didn't understand why this was the case and assumed he was entitled to the knife he wanted regardless

some words were traded between him and Andre neither of which were particularly flattering and i've talked to Andre about not responding to someone who goes after you and taking the high ground and everything is cool there

Andre then refunds Al through paypal but paypal doesn't refund the paypal fees 17 dollars

Al then proceeds to put in a case for the full $450 amount not the 17 dollars

Paypal then refunds Al the 17 dollars and consequently another 17 dollars on the back end through a mistake , so he is now 17 dollars up

He then sent an email admitting to being mistaken about the finishes and charges that he said these things in a moment of passion.



This was all back on Aug 16th , but i think having both sides of the story is important. Andre is a standup guy , and because of that i actually became friends with him online and now have become his service agent. All because of his good products and decency . At times he's not great when responding to some people after things get heated and that's partly why i'm here . I'm not like that so i'm hoping to help handle any customer service issues from now on.

He has no prblem refunding , replacing malfunctioning knives, pivots , screws. But there are times when no one can be pleased and this was one of those times. That is the other side of the story and i hope it sheds some light on a seemingly one sided situation