Another Bear attack... aother bear thread

First...I hate these threads...not going into why...

Second...I gotta ask...have any of you guys seen old Shaggy Pants up close? Like about halitosis distance. On foot and face to face...the Old Man looks about the size of a dumpster. At night He looks to be about the size of a Greyhound bus.

At thirty feet....I know one thing for sure...

Not too many people are going to draw/shoot any firearm and stop Mr. Claws.
No matter what kinda bazooka he's carrying.

Running away...as was mentioned earlier...ok...fine...if you wanna get mauled AND be out of breath...fine by me.

Pepper spray...ok...I always laugh a bit at the idea of pepper spray. Kinda like standing on the railroad tracks with a garden hose and hoping the water pressure will stop the southbound coal train. But it is some kinda plan...if you got the stones to try it...

Noise makers .38's? Not going there...breaking a bears jaw? OK...so your laying mauled...cause Old Grumpy has no lower jaw...but still a good set of nails ...you pissed him off...and now he's walking down the trail to the nearest camp site to take out his frustrations on Al and his wife and their three kids here on vacation from Jersey cause "My ain't it purty up here!"
Not a good idea...and if you are a reader of the African adventure...deemed
poor form to shoot and wound any predator species.

IN my part of Wyoming the two big worries are Mama Moose with baby who will stomp your guts out...if you so much as get close to her baby...understandable....that's how a prey animal like a moose got to survive the ice age and beyond...good mommies taking care of business...

The other very real threat is the mountain lion. Recent years with little winter kill and drought have raised the number of attacks on humans significantly. A local resident got attacked last summer while in his garden. He hit the cat with a shovel...but was pretty messed up...

For a guy like me...who takes his wife and his two year old daughter into the mountain wilderness areas to fish and walk...these two are a real threat. Especially given the stealth tactics of big cats. Little girl in the woods looks like an easy target....and she is....

The likelihood of attack from moose is distant...from cat more probable...
The real threat comes from other people in all their forms.

That being said...there's a bunch of experts that got Opinions...some say..the majority of threat from bears comes from sub adult males who are spooking at everything...and that the best course of action is to get pissed off and shout and make yourself look real big...the other attacks come from mom and baby...and she don't back down for SH*T!...so my worry is...how do you check for hangy down parts...when Furry is coming hard...if you guess wrong...thinking it is a male critter...and get all "HEY! YOU BUSTARD! COME AND GET ME! ROAR!!!" thinking to scare him off...but it turns out you are yelling at Mommy...well who knew?

It's a crap shoot either way...

Not sure who to believe...but you gotta have a plan. For bears, cats...or falling in the creek...cause they can all kill you.

BTW...did you ever try to carry a 12 gauge and fish!?!..and then emergency egress your fishing gear to bring weapon to bear?bare?...it's a messy operation at best...but if it is part of your plan...better practice...I found you gotta ditch your ditch pole in the water...in order to do it right...muzzle down sling carry works best.

Dang did I really write that much?

Shane

P.S. My wife wants to know if any of you have seen one of Grandfather's claws..or even a track...gives you an idea of what you are up against...
Bet a bunch of the Alaska hands have...pretty impressive sight.
 
Shane, not sure what your last post means; it's all horrible so what you gonna do? May as well not write? No one can get it right unless they've been previously eaten?
I don't recall anyone in this bear thread bragging on what will happen when he meets Bruin.

I used to laugh that everyone in the lower 48 wanted a bear load for their firearm, whether they lived in New Jersey or Montana. But you have many forumites who either are gunnies and know a lot from other gunnies about this topic, or live in Bear areas, or both. I don't see any reason to dismiss their opinions. Yours, for instance, on Pepper spray would seem to be behind the learning curve; supposedly, the newer stronger pepper sprays, (as developed in Montana, by outdoorsmen, for instance) are said to work better than the weaker formulas previously responsible for some spectacular failures. Not that I particularly trust pepper sprays.
Likewise, your concern about Mountain lions, though I share it, (living in an area heavily populated by the same) would seem to be disproportionate to the threat.

At any rate, Bear threads are fun, always have been fun, and always will be. The HI forum is minimal when it comes to bragging about such things, though many of it's members are experienced outdoorsmen.

I find it interesting, for example, than many savvy people believe the 357 loaded to the max with a heavy bullet has as much chance as penetrating brain pan as the next round, is easier to shoot quickly, and can be carried afield without a chain and anchor. I'm surprised no one's mentioned that yet.

I don't consider any handgun a good bet with a Grizzly, just better than than bells.
I also think a distinction needs to be made between a large Coastal Brown and a mountain Grizzly; though I understand due to protected status some of those mountain bears have gotten large, though I doubt as large as their fish eating cousins.


munk
 
Not living in a bear area, or knowing a whole lot about them, can anybody tell me if pain can break a bear charge?

To support your thesis, Munk, that a gun is just better than bells, it might be argued that even a .22, if fired repeatedly in a bear's face, could produce enough pain to deter it from its target (you). Pain normally deters animals well. Indeed, I'd suspect anything that produces pain, be it pepper spray, a paintball gun, or a .50 cal. would help more than playing dead.

But, once again, I don't know. Just a hypothesis.

Nam
 
Hey Munk,

As always I appreciate your words....I was just throwing in a penny or so...
Take it for what it is worth to you...if it means little then don't give it another thought.

As for bear spray...I have tried to do the research...and understand advancements and such...the point there...and for most of my comment could be summed up as..."I would feel pretty much underarmed with whatever I choose". Anybody who has been really close to a bear will understand that feeling of inadequacy. The movie "The Edge" with Tony Hopkins really puts it in perspective for me...maybe for others...damn that bear was big.

As for .38...357....22's...hand grenades... or whatever...if it is part of your plan and you feel like it will work...go for it.

Munk...you are right..it is all terrible. And you gotta do something.
You're right...a handgun is better than bells. Not really even sure bells are better than nothing.

It is good to have some knowledge. And then it is good to make a plan.
Not too many problems with Uncle Scruffy here. We only have his smaller cousins here. That is why I mention Moose and cats...Moose can mostly be avoided...but cats are another thing altogether...I have only seen one in 30 years...but pug marks tell me they are there.

So for all you guys who don't like what I say...ok. No worries.

Plan for what you can.As for my opinion on mountain lions being disproportionate to the threat...I never said there was a HUGE threat...just acknowledging that it exists...I did say the real threat comes from other people...more than anything else. And I hold to that.

Attacks like the one this guy had scare hell out of people just the way shark attacks do for people on the ocean. It is something we fear...so we either worry or prepare...or both. Odds of things going bad are slim...

More likely to get hit by a drunk tourist on an ATV than get attacked by anything on four legs.

You are right munk. Might as well not even write.

As to why I hate these threads...I'll email you about it...or maybe Yvsa...but not here...

Shane

P.S. IN the case of the guy who got nailed twice...maybe we could all brainstorm a "plan" that each of us might have used...if we were in his shoes.
i.e. jogging...with a dog...encounter bear...just a thought...
 
Steely_Gunz said:
I'd just say to hell with it and start hiking with a fat friend.

Jake
Click to expand...

Instant rep for Jake.

Seriously, I heard bears smell like a$$. Another reason to shoot 'em with whatever you got.

Kind of a sweat/underwear/locker room/unflushed toilet odor. Like a bare behind... or a bear behind?

Also, they shoplift.


Ad Astra :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:
 
Hmmm....not too sure what to make of SJ's post, so I guess I'll take a look at it line by line and see if we find ourselves on the same page, or at least the same chapter.

"Second...I gotta ask...have any of you guys seen old Shaggy Pants up close? Like about halitosis distance. On foot and face to face...the Old Man looks about the size of a dumpster. At night He looks to be about the size of a Greyhound bus."


Yup. If you play in the woods in Alaska you're gonna see bears, and inevitably there WILL be some that are just too close for comfort. Thankfully for 99 percent of the they're just as anxious to avoid trouble as we are.

"Not too many people are going to draw/shoot any firearm and stop Mr. Claws.
No matter what kinda bazooka he's carrying."

Statistically, not very likely, but it's still easier than bending over and kissing my a$$ goodbye if I meet a grouchy one

"Running away...as was mentioned earlier...ok...fine...if you wanna get mauled AND be out of breath...fine by me."

One of the latest I've heard the last couple of years is if attacked by a Blackie, fight tooth and nail, if a grizzly, play dead. I personally aint a fan of running at all, cause of predatory instincts- the ones that go along the lines of "if it runs it must be weaker than me, and it must be tasty too"

"Pepper spray...ok...I always laugh a bit at the idea of pepper spray. Kinda like standing on the railroad tracks with a garden hose and hoping the water pressure will stop the southbound coal train. But it is some kinda plan...if you got the stones to try it..."

There's a friend of the family that's used it several times to keep bears out of his yard. Seems to be fine for him, ran into several other people who say they have had good results with it. Know a few who say it doesn't work. Most of them were in the process of trying to sell me an expensive magnum handgun though.


"Noise makers .38's? Not going there...breaking a bears jaw? OK...so your laying mauled...cause Old Grumpy has no lower jaw...but still a good set of nails ...you pissed him off...and now he's walking down the trail to the nearest camp site to take out his frustrations on Al and his wife and their three kids here on vacation from Jersey cause "My ain't it purty up here!"
Not a good idea...and if you are a reader of the African adventure...deemed
poor form to shoot and wound any predator species."

So is it better to be mauled by a bear with an intact jaw? With all due respect, this sounds like the anti-gun media saying not to fight back if you're a victim of street crime because it'll only make the perp angry. It's a crapshoot, no matter what you do. Maybe you'll be killed by a wounded bear, maybe you'll manage to kill the bear, maybe you'll miss and still scare it off. I think we can just about all agree there are no guarantees in the matter, therefore to atuomatically assume success or defeat would be a bad idea. I do know that I plan to live, and I plan for my family to live for a much longer time, so, it makes sense to consider resistance, even considering how unlikely a bear attack truly is.

"and now he's walking down the trail to the nearest camp site to take out his frustrations on Al and his wife and their three kids here on vacation from Jersey cause "My ain't it purty up here!"
Not a good idea...and if you are a reader of the African adventure...deemed
poor form to shoot and wound any predator species."

On this perception, there's definitely alot to be considered, and yeah, it'd be a bad idea to send a wounded bruin into another camp.

That being said, when a bear forces me to shoot it, I aint tryin' to wound it. I want it dead. If it winds up wounded and wander, I'll have to accept that temporarily. First priority is to protect the family, then we can get the fish and game on a cell phone, sound alarms, or whatever. but the first priority is always to keep my family alive. If I have to attempt that with a dull butter knife, then so be it.


"IN my part of Wyoming the two big worries are Mama Moose with baby who will stomp your guts out...if you so much as get close to her baby...understandable....that's how a prey animal like a moose got to survive the ice age and beyond...good mommies taking care of business..."

It is ironic how people always sweat bears, but never worry about moose, aint it? When we lived in Anchorage for a couple years there would be people on bike trails and such zooming not ten feet from mama and her calf, and thinking nuthin' of it, then worrying about "recent bear signs in the area"
I've had to shoot one that was trying to stomp the family dogs to hell in our back yard. But, most times they don't bother anyone around here. There's a mama and her calfwandering the neighborhood now as I speak, probably see them in a couple hours or so. Thank God my son is smart enough to give them distance, all the other kids in the area like to see how close they can sneak up to her. Just hope my son never get stomped because of some other kids stupidity.


"The other very real threat is the mountain lion. Recent years with little winter kill and drought have raised the number of attacks on humans significantly. A local resident got attacked last summer while in his garden. He hit the cat with a shovel...but was pretty messed up..."

At least we aint got them up here. From what I've heard of thier methods of attack they sound scary as hell. Hearing about more and more of them too. Be very uncool wandering through the woods, then suddenly finding your back and neck full of fangs and claws.

The likelihood of attack from moose is distant...from cat more probable...
The real threat comes from other people in all their forms.

We're 100 percent in agreement on that one, hence my own comfort with a smaller handgun when camping with the family. No other animal has the potential for evil that man does, so that's the one I'm the most leery of. One of my favorite fishing holes hasn't had any bear attacks lately, but there has been some guy screaming at people and shooting at boats with a battle rifle when they stop to fish.


"BTW...did you ever try to carry a 12 gauge and fish!?!.." I see people try it every summer. It would be pure comedy if it weren't a loaded gun they were juggling and tossing around. 99% of the guns I see are large bore revolvers, but there's always that "special someone" who tries a shotgun. Usually they wrestle with it for five minutes before setting it on a nearby bank for any demented man or child to play with while they fish. Another thing that's lead me to my widdle .45 auto for carry.

P.S. My wife wants to know if any of you have seen one of Grandfather's claws..or even a track...gives you an idea of what you are up against...
Bet a bunch of the Alaska hands have...pretty impressive sight.

Yup, I have. see tracks every summer. Have a couple of claws myself infact...errr....legally aquired of course. Definitely serves as a reminder that when you go camping you are in THIER playground, and very much responsible for yourself.

I quite candidly started this out believing you were slamming every idea to come along in the dirt while offering no real solutions, then found myself sharing some ideas. I think we're all basically thinking about it quite similarly, but the difference is coming down in the expression of our thoughts.
 
Nearly every account I've read of supports Shane in that faced with an animal of such power and size all weapons feel inadequate.

There was a link in a Gun forum to an account of a Grizz taken with the new massive Smith 500. My memory is fuzzy; I can't recall if it took a cylinder from one Smith 500, whether it was a 500 along with a rifle, or two Smith 500's: But it was not reassuring. The Wonder Handgun needed every shot.

The Smith 500 is not quite what a handloaded Marlin 45/70 is and that is on the margin for me.

After reading about Grizzlys for years, from encounters and hunters, my take is that most times if you wound a grizzly you have a determined killer on your hands, but sometimes they run off. People follow them into Alder thickets to finish them off. Not my idea of fun.

Maybe the Barrett Fifty is enough. Have that mounted to your RV and someone at station while you camp. You can do shifts.


munk
 
Runs With Scissors;

The play dead approach has been used for years with Grizzlys. The late Field Johnson, O'Connor's favorite Guide in BC, used that approach. He was mauled, buried, climbed out of the shallow grave, was mauled again, and I believe climbed out one more time before being killed.
They read the story from the tracks later around his partially eaten corpse.

The Sierra Club recomends you play dead.
It was the Sierra Club used to be fond of saying a Rattlesnake always warns you before striking...


munk
 
One more for Shane:

When I suffered from sleep apnea, before treatment, I took my family and my aging folks on a picnic outside a very narrow canyon, famous for Cougars. It is nothing to go to this place and find fresh scat and urine from the Cats, or your trail crossed by tracks. That Winter I found fresh blood in the snow- I'm no tracker but from the mess I was assuming a rabbit picked up by a cat. I could easily by wrong.

Anyway, I had a 4" 41 mag strapped to my hip. My father thought I'd lost it. I was round the bend, you see, from lack of sleep. I wouldn't let my small sons get out of sight around a corner of the trail in the canyon, nor be very far- more than 35 yards from me, and I didn't like that much.

My old man and I had a heated argument about it on the way home.

I guess the whole town here is crazy too, with or without sleep, because not one person I asked would go to that place without being armed, and my caution about my children was seen as completely practical.

They recently found tracks behind the schoolhouse, and old Clausen saw a cat chasing a deer through his backyard.

I don't even like my children playing in the yard alone. Theres a mountain right behind my house- and I mean right behind.


munk
 
munk said:
Runs With Scissors;

The play dead approach has been used for years with Grizzlys. The late Field Johnson, O'Connor's favorite Guide in BC, used that approach. He was mauled, buried, climbed out of the shallow grave, was mauled again, and I believe climbed out one more time before being killed.
They read the story from the tracks later around his partially eaten corpse.

The Sierra Club recomends you play dead.
It was the Sierra Club used to be fond of saying a Rattlesnake always warns you before striking...


munk
Click to expand...


I just remembered the article about fighting a blackie/playing dead with a griz because I was shocked that a newspaper could print up an article suggesting a person fight anything larger than a miniature poodle. Anyone remember the old man up here about five years ago that fought off a Kodiak with a Buck 110? tough old SOB. Guess he'd be in disagreement with the Sierra Club as well. (FWIW, I seriously doubt my ability to "play dead" while listening to my scalp being ripped from my head an' all, so I'd be basically urinating on ye ole forest fire myself) ie: fighting like hell against odds.

That's somethin' 'bout the cats down there. Guess I'd have that .41 within reach at all times myself. more and more gruesome tales about them.

Know whatcha mean arguin' with the ole man. Same kinda thing happens with me all the time. Anytime I go out to his cabin, out flying, in a boat, or whatever I'm always told I don't need all my big "Rambo" knives, and guns and that he has everything we could possibly need. Which incidentally takes a pretty good set of balls, considering it was my small survival kit that got us through a cold windy night and a long stuck in the mountains on a previous occassion.
 
Don't know how well it works, but they make a 12 ga. shotshell with pepper spray in it. It is shot from a small flare pistol. A physician friend of mine went to Canada to do some hiking and took one with him. Customs thought it was intereesting and didn't give him a hard time about it. Also can shoot flares from it. A blast of spray may work better. But you still would have to be fairly close and I hope I never get a chance to try it out. I got one for my daughter to carry.
 
Unless I was hunting or fishing in high density bear territory, I would not be carrying a rifle or shotgun. I thought about the S&W lightweight .44:
http://www.firearms.smith-wesson.com/store/index.php3?cat=293482&sw_activeTab=1

but then I concluded it would better to have the Ruger Alaskan in .480(when it passes Communist inspection in Commiefornia) because the S&W is too light to be controlled IMHO:
http://www.ruger-firearms.com/Firearms/FAProdView?model=5302&return=Y

For dual purpose protection against 2 legged varmints and other wild animals:
http://www.glock.com/g20.htm
 
BruiseLeee said:
Some Canadians will be frightened if you hold a toothpick in an agressive manner.
Click to expand...
Certainly...... what with all the propoganda they have been fed by a very liberal government.... it is no wonder!

Some people will eventually believe and agree with anything, some of the time, if you tell them what to think often enough!
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

iBear
 
hdwrlover said:
Unless I was hunting or fishing in high density bear territory, I would not be carrying a rifle or shotgun. I thought about the S&W lightweight .44:
http://www.firearms.smith-wesson.com/store/index.php3?cat=293482&sw_activeTab=1

but then I concluded it would better to have the Ruger Alaskan in .480(when it passes Communist inspection in Commiefornia) because the S&W is too light to be controlled IMHO:
http://www.ruger-firearms.com/Firearms/FAProdView?model=5302&return=Y

For dual purpose protection against 2 legged varmints and other wild animals:
http://www.glock.com/g20.htm
Click to expand...
What is wrong with the sick Country sic, sic.... of Kalifornia?

iBear
 
iBear,

Commiefornia is run by politicians who would abolish the 2nd Amendment in a second - if they could. After the 2nd Amendment rights go, then other rights would follow.

Anyway, since the present federal government would stop them from doing this, they constantly work on new laws to weaken the 2nd Amendment and make it more costly for citizens to buy and own guns. Several years ago they passed a law under the guise of controlling unsafe "Saturday night specials"s without really defining what those guns really are. Under this law all handgun models that would be sold as new(no previous owner) have to undergo testing in one of several approved independent testing labs to make sure that they were not unsafe. For example the Ruger Redhawk has been around a long time before this law was passed but each variation of Redhawk has to pass the test. What is a variation? Well the Communists say if it has a different barrel length, a different metal(SS, chrome moly, scandium, aluminum, titanium, etc.), different cylinder capacity, etc. etc. it is a different variation and must be tested separately. Of course this must be paid for by the manufacturer who must pass this cost along to maintain a decent profit margin. Furthermore, the test on a model variation is only good for a limited time(year or two I believe) so the manufacturer must have that model retested periodically - just like car registration.

Needless to say this process is expensive and many makes and models are not approved in Commiefornia because the manufacturers cannot afford to test models they deem will not have sufficient sales volume.

Furthermore, guess what? Law enforcement guns do not have to pass this Saturday night special safety law. Go figure. They told the public that "unsafe" guns should not be sold, but then said law enforcement is exempted. LIE, LIE, LIE, HYPOCRITES, HYPOCRITES, HYPOCRITES!:mad::mad::mad:
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top