Belt Sander Setup

Keep it moving and use a medium to coarse grit. The steel heats up a lot faster the finer your abrasive. Also, running slower only seems to help with those finer abrasives - with the coarse ones I'd swear it heats up less at higher speed. The belts seem to last longer as well.

Keep a can of water handy and dunk often.

In my opinion a lot of the harm and/or poor edge retention from belt or wheel is a result of the finish work, not the resetting. I've gotten crazy life from edges done on 120 grit belt and microbeveled on a finishing stone. Even when the stone work doesn't completely remove the belt ground apex.

Keep it simple.
 
For fine finishing I like using cork belts. They're the coolest-cutting fine belts I've found.
 
Also, running slower only seems to help with those finer abrasives - with the coarse ones I'd swear it heats up less at higher speed. The belts seem to last longer as well.

There are three possible modes of contact between each grit and the workpiece: cutting (chip formation), plowing, and rubbing. The first is best as heat is carried by the chip, while rubbing produces heat without accomplishing anything. I recall that too shallow a depth of cut can cause heat problems. It wouldn't surprise me if too low an abrasive (wheel or belt) speed could too; I recall the charts relating to grinding power and heat being rather complicated and nonlinear. I can look for some sources if it interests you.
 
There are three possible modes of contact between each grit and the workpiece: cutting (chip formation), plowing, and rubbing. The first is best as heat is carried by the chip, while rubbing produces heat without accomplishing anything. I recall that too shallow a depth of cut can cause heat problems. It wouldn't surprise me if too low an abrasive (wheel or belt) speed could too; I recall the charts relating to grinding power and heat being rather complicated and nonlinear. I can look for some sources if it interests you.

Knowledge is power!

I'm pretty sure every steel and belt combination has a feed rate and optimum speed value based on depth of pass. In my personal use, I can't really afford to do a lot of tinkering with different media, I use Norton Blaze and 3M diamond for 99% of everything.

Slowing down the speed too much kills my belt life, reduces depth of cut, and increases heat buildup. Once I get to the Silicon Carbide belts (which I use VERY seldom now) is where I tend to slow things down. Even at high speed they generate heat very rapidly - I tend to run just slow enough that I can keep some water on the belt.
 
When using the WSKOE, how much does the blade heat up? I read a study done that showed the standard WS heated up the micro edge beyond the tempering temp therefore degrading edge retention when compared to the same knife sharpenened on a wet stone. I really want to get a WSKOE to reprofile all my knives 1000x easier than doing it manually, but I don't want to degrade my premium steel knives' edge retention. Would love to know if you've been able to keep heat to a minimum with low speed and waiting in between passes for any heat to dissipate. Thank you!!!
I would like a link to this "study" since what you are proposing it demonstrates isn't technically feasible. We do not have the means to take accurate readings of steel hardness close to the apex, nor can we take accurate measurements of temperature there, even with very fine thermo-couples embedded in the steel. I'd like to see how the authors of such a study indicate they have accomplished this.


Hand stropping uses very fine abrasives that rub the apex in such fashion that it burnishes, and both stropping as well as using very fine grit rods/hones generates sufficient heat at the apex that it results in adhesive wear on the steel (galling or friction-welding). Understand that this is describing behavior at the very apex of the edge where the geometry is thinnest. The process that makes your edge as sharp as it can possibly be is the one that heats up the "micro edge". Whether you use a belt-grinder or paper-wheels or just hand-stropping on buffing compound (or no compound at all), that final rubbing at the apex is generating a LOT of heat. Any difference in edge-retention observed between a belt-ground edge and a stone-ground edge will more likely to do with the final geometry at the apex, including edge-finish. That is techinically possible to observe via SEM whereas measurements of hardness at the very apex to determine if HT has been affected by the process are not feasible. Apex geometry trumps everything when it comes to edge-retention, including HT.

Also keep in mind that CUTTING generates a lot of heat at the apex. Ever touched the edge of your axe after doing a bunch of splitting through hardwood? Your knife after cutting a bunch of cardboard? We use the steels we do in part based on resistance to such heat.

None of that is to suggest that you CAN'T ruin the temper of an edge through machine-grinding, but what it takes to do so has not been established.

And then you have companies like BRKT. Mike Stewart has been selling knives for decades, all machine-ground, and in his videos he makes clear that his knives go from ready blank to built, photographed, and shipped in under 20 miinutes total. They spend <5 minutes doing a full convex grind and polish for each knife that leaves the shop, that is going from a blank with no edge at ~0.030" thick at the apex to splitting hairs and 0.010" behind the edge. Some folk HAVE complained that they received knives with ruined tempers that were likely the result of over-heating during grinding... but only some people have reported that, and that company puts out ~40,000 knives per year.:eek: How long do YOU take to sharpen an only slightly dull edge on say, a 3" pocket-knife? :D

Nearly every company machine-sharpens their knives and spends as little time doing it as possible. When folk proclaim poor factory-edge performance, it is usually the result of edge-finishing, i.e. a poorly formed apex with micro-burring that folds over or cracks away on the first use, problems that arise in hand sharpening just as frequently as in machine sharpening. They can be avoided in both by simply taking more care when you finish the edge.

Your biggest concern with machine-grinding an edge shouldn't be heat generation but removing too much steel and ending with a wonky edge. The angle-guides on the WS are rubbish and the belt-width is so narrow, it is easy to grind deeper in one spot than in another. You are far better off buying a system with wider belts (even the HF 1x30) and either setting up an angle-guide jig or just eye-balling it and seeing the process as the belt removes material. You can watch it bring up a burr... and then, if you hate your knife, you can use a lot of force and watch that burr become an ember! :p Don't do that, that's bad for the edge. ;)
 
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I would like a link to this "study" since what you are proposing it demonstrates isn't technically feasible. We do not have the means to take accurate readings of steel hardness close to the apex, nor can we take accurate measurements of temperature there, even with very fine thermo-couples embedded in the steel. I'd like to see how the authors of such a study indicate they have accomplished this.

Not exactly, but relevant. An excerpt from
Temperature case studies in grinding including an inclined heat source model — W B Rowe

VUCmiJA.png
 
Good find. Here are links to a few more papers:
https://asmedigitalcollection.asme....nergy-Partition-to-the-Workpiece-for-Grinding
http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S1516-14392002000200016
http://wumrc.engin.umich.edu/wp-con...ocouple_fixation_method_for_grinding_temp.pdf

Again, not knives but concerning surface grinding.
In the first study, they embedded thermocouples into steel (including AISI 1020 at 40 Rc and also 52100 and O1 steels hardened to 62 Rc, none "high speed" or stainless alloys) and ground the surfaces repeatedly using abrasive wheels running 30 m/s (for reference, the HF 1x30 runs ~15 m/s) cutting to a depth of 25 microns on each pass, with the steel plate feeding at ~13 cm/s. They found that only ~20% of the energy was transferred to the workpiece as heat when using CBN wheels under these conditions, resulting in heating the first 10-20 microns of the surface to ~120'C for 4 ms - well below tempering level and times for our knife steels.

In the next paper (from 2002) they conclude, "The cooling properties of the cutting fluids can be neglected and don't cause any improvement in the reduction of the grinding zone temperature and in prevailing compressive residual stresses."
In the next paper (from 2008) they were testing different thermocouple measuring techniques and also concluded: "Grinding experiments and heat transfer analyses showed that grinding fluids provide negligible cooling within the grinding zone."
I am sure that there are newer papers on this subject, but these were easy to dig up because I have presented them before: https://www.bladeforums.com/threads...g-belt-sanding-initial-results.1357231/page-5

It is mentioned in these and other papers I've found that water or majority-water lubricants largely retain the thermal properties of water and so vaporize before they reach the point of contact, such that their impact is not felt by the contact-area itself which responds as if it were being cut dry. The primary reason for using these liquids at all is their lubricity (reducing friction) and to wash away swarf that can clog the abrasive and cause irregular grinding. Some of the articles took measurements that showed heat-transfer to the work-piece which would exceed the tempering temperature of a knife steel but lasting only a few milliseconds. Tempering is performed over a period of hours.

Again, I am not saying that you CAN'T over-heat your edge power-sharpening, i just haven't found any evidence that indicates one cannot NOT over-heat it or even that doing so is a common occurrence and NOT also present in hand-finishing an apex. This has been brought up elsewhere but is worth repeating - there are variables other than HT of the steel that must be accounted for which have enormous impact on edge performance and those we are actually capable of measuring. We can measure temperature in a grinding zone to some degree using special thermo-couples and extrapolate with computer models of energy transfer, etc., but we cannot take a rockwell reading with any reliability at such fine geometries due to the size and shape of the specimen. *shrug*
 
From what I have read the major advantage to using a lubricant isn't temp reduction so much as it influences the boundary lines on your chip. With a lube the edges of the chip come away a lot cleaner, less distortion, less chatter, longer curls. In the scheme of things I don't think it makes a lot of difference though is liable to improve life of the abrasive if nothing else.

chiral.grolim chiral.grolim makes a good point about heat in use. Doing a project at work I was cutting large cardboard templates, the edge got so hot I was unable to touch it to the inside of my forearm and keep it there without burning myself. And the bit on my hatchet gets plenty warm chopping hardwood (either of these might very well be ruining the temper in a small band along the edge), far warmer than I will let it get sharpening.
 
I would like a link to this "study" since what you are proposing it demonstrates isn't technically feasible. We do not have the means to take accurate readings of steel hardness close to the apex, nor can we take accurate measurements of temperature there, even with very fine thermo-couples embedded in the steel. I'd like to see how the authors of such a study indicate they have accomplished this.


Hand stropping uses very fine abrasives that rub the apex in such fashion that it burnishes, and both stropping as well as using very fine grit rods/hones generates sufficient heat at the apex that it results in adhesive wear on the steel (galling or friction-welding). Understand that this is describing behavior at the very apex of the edge where the geometry is thinnest. The process that makes your edge as sharp as it can possibly be is the one that heats up the "micro edge". Whether you use a belt-grinder or paper-wheels or just hand-stropping on buffing compound (or no compound at all), that final rubbing at the apex is generating a LOT of heat. Any difference in edge-retention observed between a belt-ground edge and a stone-ground edge will more likely to do with the final geometry at the apex, including edge-finish. That is techinically possible to observe via SEM whereas measurements of hardness at the very apex to determine if HT has been affected by the process are not feasible. Apex geometry trumps everything when it comes to edge-retention, including HT.

Also keep in mind that CUTTING generates a lot of heat at the apex. Ever touched the edge of your axe after doing a bunch of splitting through hardwood? Your knife after cutting a bunch of cardboard? We use the steels we do in part based on resistance to such heat.

None of that is to suggest that you CAN'T ruin the temper of an edge through machine-grinding, but what it takes to do so has not been established.

And then you have companies like BRKT. Mike Stewart has been selling knives for decades, all machine-ground, and in his videos he makes clear that his knives go from ready blank to built, photographed, and shipped in under 20 miinutes total. They spend <5 minutes doing a full convex grind and polish for each knife that leaves the shop, that is going from a blank with no edge at ~0.030" thick at the apex to splitting hairs and 0.010" behind the edge. Some folk HAVE complained that they received knives with ruined tempers that were likely the result of over-heating during grinding... but only some people have reported that, and that company puts out ~40,000 knives per year.:eek: How long do YOU take to sharpen an only slightly dull edge on say, a 3" pocket-knife? :D

Nearly every company machine-sharpens their knives and spends as little time doing it as possible. When folk proclaim poor factory-edge performance, it is usually the result of edge-finishing, i.e. a poorly formed apex with micro-burring that folds over or cracks away on the first use, problems that arise in hand sharpening just as frequently as in machine sharpening. They can be avoided in both by simply taking more care when you finish the edge.

Your biggest concern with machine-grinding an edge shouldn't be heat generation but removing too much steel and ending with a wonky edge. The angle-guides on the WS are rubbish and the belt-width is so narrow, it is easy to grind deeper in one spot than in another. You are far better off buying a system with wider belts (even the HF 1x30) and either setting up an angle-guide jig or just eye-balling it and seeing the process as the belt removes material. You can watch it bring up a burr... and then, if you hate your knife, you can use a lot of force and watch that burr become an ember! :p Don't do that, that's bad for the edge. ;)
Here's the article I read that referenced the study. https://knifesteelnerds.com/2019/04/08/does-sharpening-with-a-grinder-ruin-your-edge/
 
I've had my Kalamazoo 1x42 for a little over a week now. It's pretty nice to use for sharpening. The speed seems "just right" in that it's fast enough to get some work done, but I don't feel like I need to rush my strokes. The noise level is also really good. It's pretty quiet. I would say it's 15 or 20 dB softer than the WSKO on full blast. Mainly because the WSKO has a tiny little motor that revs high and makes a high pitched sound, while the Kalamazoo makes a very low pitched sound and runs at "only" 1750 RPM.

I've produced some decent edges with it so far. Deburring is the big challenge! I've found that the medium scotchbrite belt is good for first stage deburring; it's actually quite helpful. The leather belt, rough side out is ok, but not great. Smooth side leather, with green compound, seems to get some burr removed, but not all of the really sticky, floppy, flippy, horrible burrs made by lower end steel. I'm thinking I probably need to buy a buffer and a paper or possibly scotchbrite wheel. Maybe a cotton wheel for good measure (for deburring serrated blades).

I also broke down and bought a BESS tester. My best edge so far measured 145 BESS at it's sharpest point. I deburred that edge quite a lot on the leather with green compound belt. Pretty happy with that edge, though I would like to figure out how to retain a more toothy edge after deburring. I really like the "grab" from a 120 to 320 grit edge. But removing the burr cleanly and keeping all of that grab is really, really hard! At least with belts.

I'll be experimenting with an angle guide (Hi Martin!) over the next few days. I hope this will make even more consistent edges for me.

Brian.
 
I've had my Kalamazoo 1x42 for a little over a week now. It's pretty nice to use for sharpening. The speed seems "just right" in that it's fast enough to get some work done, but I don't feel like I need to rush my strokes. The noise level is also really good. It's pretty quiet. I would say it's 15 or 20 dB softer than the WSKO on full blast. Mainly because the WSKO has a tiny little motor that revs high and makes a high pitched sound, while the Kalamazoo makes a very low pitched sound and runs at "only" 1750 RPM.

I've produced some decent edges with it so far. Deburring is the big challenge! I've found that the medium scotchbrite belt is good for first stage deburring; it's actually quite helpful. The leather belt, rough side out is ok, but not great. Smooth side leather, with green compound, seems to get some burr removed, but not all of the really sticky, floppy, flippy, horrible burrs made by lower end steel. I'm thinking I probably need to buy a buffer and a paper or possibly scotchbrite wheel. Maybe a cotton wheel for good measure (for deburring serrated blades).

I also broke down and bought a BESS tester. My best edge so far measured 145 BESS at it's sharpest point. I deburred that edge quite a lot on the leather with green compound belt. Pretty happy with that edge, though I would like to figure out how to retain a more toothy edge after deburring. I really like the "grab" from a 120 to 320 grit edge. But removing the burr cleanly and keeping all of that grab is really, really hard! At least with belts.

I'll be experimenting with an angle guide (Hi Martin!) over the next few days. I hope this will make even more consistent edges for me.

Brian.

I found that slowly running the belt into the edge with a very light touch does a good job of removing most of the burr.
Gummy steels benefit from running the edge across some wood a few times between passes.

I was able to get ok results without a guide but if I need to make multiple passes have a tough time matching the angle perfectly.

Am currently redoing my guides to work with the Mutitool adapter.
 
My Kalamazoo
Added hinge, adjustment screws to set angle using gauge or angle cube. Then just sharpen edge of blade running knife parallel to the work bench.
photo1-vi.jpg
 
From the article:
...After tempering, if the steel is heated to some temperature below the tempering temperature, the hardness will likely not be affected unless it is held there for very long periods of time...
How long? Tempering of a blade is performed over the course of hours. The peer-reviewed published articles I cited found that heating occurs in the first 10-microns of the ground specimen (using high grind and feed speeds) to 120'C for 4 milliseconds. That is too short and too cold to temper most blade steels. Oh well.
Microhardness measurements of that tap edge showed the effect of overheating...
This is the most suspect portion of the article (and please note, Larrin is just reporting the work of others here). I will quote ToddS since he typed it most succinctly: "These type of measurements must be made at least 3 indent diameters from the edge... Also, this type of polishing typically rounds off the specimen near the potting compound interface- so the surface may not be normal to the indenter at those points, which again influences the result."
The indentation diagonal for Vickers micro-hardness testing must be ~20 microns to be considered at all reliable, and the processing (polishing/grinding!) of the specimens for testing typically rounds the last 10-20 microns.
Here is a link regarding microhardness testing: https://www.hardnesstesters.com/learningzone/articles/common-problems-in-microhardness-testing
One of the biggest problems with Vickers hardness testing is that it relies on optical assessment by the technician. Again, the article above details how this can be a major problem, and you can run the calculations to see how wide a deviation from reality can occur if the measurement made by the technician is off. But not even getting into that, If you look at the images in the article presenting the micro-hardness readings of ground blade edges (presented to Larrin by a fellow named Roman Landes and the data has not been rigorously analyzed), the readings are not performed in duplicate, much less triplicate, and in the sample which shows a drop of 5 Rc, one measurement is at ~30 microns and the other is ~80 microns from the edge, and those are the only two readings which deviate from the rest of the edge. Landes doesn't specify the amount of force being used during sharpening and only shows one steel (8660 steel), and he is far from an unbiased source.

Shears.png


So what is presented is the microhardness readings from specimens sharpened in a way lacking specific (i.e. fundamental) detail which, if processed properly, were machine polished/ground to remove any defects on the surface, you can even see the rounding of the edge in the images, the lowest hardness reading was taken within the region deformed by specimen processing and the second reading appears to ALSO fall too close to the edge to give a proper reading. Those two readings would be discarded by any scientist of integrity.

If the argument is being made that all of the dis-temper is occurring within the first 100 microns of a blade's apex, measuring it in terms of harndess is not technically feasible.

On the other hand, Latrobe's 2007 article on over-heating your tools (referenced before Landes' stuff) has to do with industrial production of cutting tools. The micro-hardness readings of the tap have no scale to reference, but the images stress the difference in shading between the regions affected by grinding - Landes did not do this for his images and I have not been able to confirm the reliability of the 'shading' method. But note that these tools are all produced by machine grinding, the article is about how poor manufacturing techniques can produce a poor-quality tool, whereas proper techniques do not. The author notes:
A spinning grinding wheel can generate very high temperatures at the surface of the steel, which is being ground. It is imperative that the wheel be clean and dressed, and that the travel speed, feed rate, depth of grind, and fluid application be carefully controlled to prevent the generation of high temperatures and damage to the steel.
Yes, all of that is known. One can affect the temper through processes that generate heat. But which processes do or do not generate heat to such a degree in knife edges remains absent, and machine-grinding is how tools like that presented in the Latrobe article are produced. If production always and everywhere affected all such tools being manufactured, wouldn't that be important to note?

Next, Larrin presents an amateur project by some guys with a sharpness tester and a WorkSharp grinder and a stone and some bamboo skewers. They test "edge retention" be examining sharpness (on their tester) at baseline, then after 30, 60, and 90 cuts across bamboo skewers. We will ignore the uniformity of the skewers as a reliable medium for now and look at their method:
1) The single most important factor in edge performance is geometry - this is well known and well established. In this project, the authors do not assess any difference in geometry between the edges prior to testing or throughout the experiment. Why not? We already noted that SEM is a well known and reliable means of doing this... but they don't bother looking at the edges they produce by their different sharpening techniques. At all. Hmm... Do you happen to know if a Worksharp will produce a different edge-geometry than stone sharpening based on their method details? That is rhetorical, of course it does. The convexity produced by the Worksharp is not addressed in the article, nor the level of refinement used on the stone-ground blade. Was the stone-ground blade stropped? Probably not. No details provided.
2) The authors assert that water-stones keep the blade cool, but again the published studies on the subject indicate that the use of liquid does not actually affect temperature so much as enhance lubrication and removal of swarf - the authors seem to be relying on internet truths for their premises.
3) The authors admit to being amateurs at sharpening - did they happen to determine the level of burr-formation found after sharpening prior to testing? They mention that the WS edge starts sharper but think it degrades much more rapidly... OR they made a burr and lost it. The image they represent of the sharpness-tester results on the stone-ground blade demonstrate that the authors lack any type of quality control - the edge produced by the stone is far from uniform. They start with a sharp knife off the grinder and a dull knife off the stone, then try to compare the degree of change in sharpness as if starting from completely different baselines is at all valid. Imagine a CATRA test where you start with one blade at maximum sharpness and another at 50% sharpness and run the test - the amount of sharpness lost by the sharp blade far exceeds that of the already partially dull blade every time due to how edge geometry changes as the edge degrades.
The project by these guys is basically a nice set-up for improvement, but the results are worthless. There is no science here.

So Larrin's article, while a nice summary of some of the "work" that has been done on the subject, basically lacks any evidence indicating that power-sharpening impacts edge performance or heat-treatment in any way whatsoever. *shrug*
 
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My Kalamazoo
Added hinge, adjustment screws to set angle using gauge or angle cube. Then just sharpen edge of blade running knife parallel to the work bench.
photo1-vi.jpg
"Parallel"... don't you mean perpendicular? As in, knife held vertically, edge-downward? The trouble with this type of grinding is that it is hard to reliably hold that angle relative to the ground. you'd be better off with a fixture that holds the knife secure at the appropriate angle as it approaches the grinding surface at its angle, like the edge-jig on a Tormek.
 
Looking at Landes' image and graph again, I am struck by the 'mm' measurements as they appear to be taken from the apex to the point of the hardness test instead of from the bevel face where the grinding has occurred to the hardness test, that the test furthest from the apex is only ~100 microns from the bevel face if those dots represent the indent marks... That would put them at ~10, 20, 30, 40, 60, 80, & 100 microns or so.
 
I'm not making a lot of progress on deburring on belts so far. I've tried my medium scotch brite quite a bit. It makes a difference. Seems to lift the burr off of the edge. But I can't get that belt to remove the burr. Increasing the angle seems to round off the edge badly.

Bare leather, rough side out, doesn't do a lot besides flip the burr. Smooth leather, with green compound seems to work decently, if not fully. But it also polishes the edge quite a lot. I've just ordered a "very fine" scotch brite belt, which I hope will be better at deburring.

I'm currently doing everything edge trailing. I'm considering doing some edge leading. But this would require me to either turn the machine around, or to wire a reversing switch into the motor.

If I'm going to reverse the motor, I kinda want to install a DC motor with variable speed. That way I can go nice and slow, and hopefully remove the burr in a controlled fashion. On the other hand, I don't want to waste my money if that's the wrong approach.

Should I be using a harder device like a paper wheel or scotchbrite wheel, on a buffer?

It's interesting to me that the major challenge here is NOT grinding the edge. That's actually pretty straight forward. It's deburring that's the hard part.

Brian.
 
I'm not making a lot of progress on deburring on belts so far. I've tried my medium scotch brite quite a bit. It makes a difference. Seems to lift the burr off of the edge. But I can't get that belt to remove the burr. Increasing the angle seems to round off the edge badly.

Bare leather, rough side out, doesn't do a lot besides flip the burr. Smooth leather, with green compound seems to work decently, if not fully. But it also polishes the edge quite a lot. I've just ordered a "very fine" scotch brite belt, which I hope will be better at deburring.

I'm currently doing everything edge trailing. I'm considering doing some edge leading. But this would require me to either turn the machine around, or to wire a reversing switch into the motor.

If I'm going to reverse the motor, I kinda want to install a DC motor with variable speed. That way I can go nice and slow, and hopefully remove the burr in a controlled fashion. On the other hand, I don't want to waste my money if that's the wrong approach.

Should I be using a harder device like a paper wheel or scotchbrite wheel, on a buffer?

It's interesting to me that the major challenge here is NOT grinding the edge. That's actually pretty straight forward. It's deburring that's the hard part.

Brian.

That is exactly what I found as well. Slowly running the belt back into the edge, or manually running the edge along a stationary belt worked the best for burr removal, followed by some form of post belt finishing.

I'll be experimenting with paper wheel for burr removal, but ultimately my system doesn't require that and I'll probably default to finishing on a fine stone if it doesn't pan out very quickly.
 
That is exactly what I found as well. Slowly running the belt back into the edge, or manually running the edge along a stationary belt worked the best for burr removal, followed by some form of post belt finishing.

I'll be experimenting with paper wheel for burr removal, but ultimately my system doesn't require that and I'll probably default to finishing on a fine stone if it doesn't pan out very quickly.
^this .
No need to use machine power where some quick manual power on belt or stone will do! :)
 
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