Benchmade Black Class, failing pommel strike tests (Axis lock failure)

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Since, I’ve apparently caused a lot of confusion regarding what the heck we’re arguing about, I’ll step completely out after this. Sorry, I was doing yard work and reading/responding on breaks, so maybe I misconstrued, or completely missed some points and muddied the waters.

If the issue is the marketing, using “tactical” or “hard use” type verbiage to sell knives, I can see why you have a problem about that, but I don’t think it’s necessarily disingenuous, simply because it’s intentionally ambiguous. What does “Zero Tolerance” with its old “Built Like a Tank” slogan mean? I’ve seen those fail plenty, too. That said, I hope that any rational person understands marketing is marketing, and it’s not really catered to the clandestine users we associate with those terms. I pick knives that I’m comfortable doing whatever I need them to, but I weigh their advantages against their flaws and use them accordingly. As I initially stated, I find the Black Class knives to be more than suitable for my work and life needs, whether you take my professional or personal opinions in stride or not, but I also concede (as I also did in the beginning) I’m just a LEO, not a tactical operator or super ninja, though I like to think that counts for something. You may disagree, and that’s fine.

If we’re talking about the practice of pommel strikes using an open folding knife, as they pertain to a viable, and SAFE practice, I still maintain I think it’s a bad idea and a poor expectation of ANY folding knife. Operator, new knife enthusiast worried about self defense, martial arts practitioner, or otherwise.
 
Ante Vukorepa said:
As an aside (yes, i know, i said last 2c) - what does "hard tactical use" even consist of?
Somehow, i have trouble imagining spec ops guys in black tiptoeing around and bashing skulls with folding pocket knife pommels as a part of their day to day operations.

This whole notion of a "tactical knife" is just utter BS and i think no one really, truly, completely believes in it, just as no one believes they're buying a red convertible sports car with the intent to race it at a race track.

I might be completely wrong on that one and there might be people who legitimately believe that, i guess...
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knife defense experts are usually hired by companies or collaborated with to design tactical knives when they are being sold for that intended use. Weather you accept knives being designed for self defense is up to you. But yes it is a thing and established knife fighting experts are hired even by companies like Spyderco. It's not a matter of people believing knife design and intended use, because those things are a reality regardless of you opinion on the matter. Now believing in something that is proven to not be practical for its intended use is another matter because then you have actual issues. Usually when a combat knife, or hard use tactical folder are designed they are put through testing phases.
Then feedback from the community is usually taken into consideration, and changes are made to production of later models if they have proven to be lacking in a certain concerning area. Just like any other intended design of any other product.
The word tactical knife does have a meaning, and it has a set of implications that go alogn with that meaning. If a company wishes to slap the word "tactical" or "Hard use" onto a specific model then customers come to expect a certain level of built quality.
You may have a problem with the term "Tactical" and that's understandable, especially if you are not involved in bladed weapons combat training, or knife defense, then it's not something that concerns you. But if you target and market towards a niche market, then expect people that belong tot hat niche market to have something to say if they find out something potentially dangerous with the product.
 
Worldwatcher said:
This is the most ridiculous thing ive seen on bf in awhile! OP why are you assuming life and death means a fight? Could mean an leo cutting a seatbelt at an accident scene and many other situations. I wont get into your qualifications, but I am former military with over 3 years combat time in Iraq and Afghanistan as well as another 2 years of contract work. No professional is gonna use an axis lock as a fighting knife and its a moot point really. I never had to use a knife in combat and the last thing I am worried about in a grappling situation as you say is a damn axis lock. Its hilarious, but hey keep taking your classes...
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Then it seems you have less experience than I do when it comes to bladed weapons training, nobody is saying military and law enforcement fight with knives on a regular basis. But civilians do and that is where most bladed weapons based training is aimed at. These knives are not just sold or supplied at military issue knives they are sold to members of the general public marketed as tactical hard use knives which imples they are viable self defense tools. Which people even in this thread believe them to be suited for. By taking my classes do you mean running my classes? Because I run a bladed weapons based club in London now days, I am still a member of other bladed weapons based combat clubs also. I don't see how that is some kind of blemish on me as you clearly intended it to be. So you who does not train in blade based combat are attempting to belittle a person who trains in blade based martial arts, and you think this somehow is a point scored?
Yes no professional is going to use an axis lock as a fighting knife, but people int he general public have the idea that they are viable as fighting knives, even people commenting in this thread believe that. So I point out they are not viable fighting knives, and you suggest what I said is laughable, yet you have not replied tot he people saying these are good fighting knives? Doesn't add up.
So all you have shows is that you have no experience with knife fighting, yet you attempt to belittle somebody for "Training in a class" where do you want us to train techniques?
 
All my Benchmade knifes failed!!! Where can they be sent for safe disposal?
 
Centermass said:
Since, I’ve apparently caused a lot of confusion regarding what the heck we’re arguing about, I’ll step completely out after this. Sorry, I was doing yard work and reading/responding on breaks, so maybe I misconstrued, or completely missed some points and muddied the waters.

If the issue is the marketing, using “tactical” or “hard use” type verbiage to sell knives, I can see why you have a problem about that, but I don’t think it’s necessarily disingenuous, simply because it’s intentionally ambiguous. What does “Zero Tolerance” with its old “Built Like a Tank” slogan mean? I’ve seen those fail plenty, too. That said, I hope that any rational person understands marketing is marketing, and it’s not really catered to the clandestine users we associate with those terms. I pick knives that I’m comfortable doing whatever I need them to, but I weigh their advantages against their flaws and use them accordingly. As I initially stated, I find the Black Class knives to be more than suitable for my work and life needs, whether you take my professional or personal opinions in stride or not, but I also concede (as I also did in the beginning) I’m just a LEO, not a tactical operator or super ninja, though I like to think that counts for something. You may disagree, and that’s fine.

If we’re talking about the practice of pommel strikes using an open folding knife, as they pertain to a viable, and SAFE practice, I still maintain I think it’s a bad idea and a poor expectation of ANY folding knife. Operator, new knife enthusiast worried about self defense, martial arts practitioner, or otherwise.
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Yes the problem is with the marketing of "Tactical" and "Hard use" that Benchmade use, built liek a tank I would expect the knife to be very robust if it said that. I'd have no problem is cold steel said "The AD-10 is built liek a tank" or "The 4 max is build like a tank" It's about honest description. I would not call most ZT knives built like a tank in regards to all the lock failure in spine whack tests i've seen. But as far as I can remember ZT dont have it written in their literature like benchmade do, about trusting your life, and tactical applications of the black class knives. You can hope that people are "Rational" but when have people ever really proved to be rational in your honest opinion. I've pointed it out multiple times to you, there are people in this very thread right here that just said "Black class kives are safe to pommel strike with" and "They are perfectly suited tactical knives" So i'm going to have to keep pointing this out to you bro.
The marketing and reputation of Benchmade has given people the impression the black class knives are a step above average EDC blades, and all I'm saying is not hey are not, they are just light use EDC blades at best. Even if we take the tactical application out of the debate, and just talk about hard use, I would still have to argue that the black class are not good or safe hard use knives, that axis lock problem is still there. People are disengaging the locks from cardboard cutting. You can't argue that there isn't a problem with accidental impact ont he base of the knife which causes the lock to fail. It's a thing and I am sharing it.
People do not expect this either, you act like "The knife closing on your fingers if you bumpt he pommel is expected" It really isn't people are being surprised that is closes on your fingers so easily. So even if we scrap the tactical application which i'm not, we still have that problem, you tell me then, what do you do if your hand slips and knocks into a hard surface and the blade closes on your finger? A guy almost got injured cutting cardboard... That is light use, not even heavy use, the lock has a weakness that people should know about. And the weakness isn't just based on knife abuse or "Tactical" applications that shouldn't be done. There is a higher risk of injury from accidental disengagement of the lockbar on the axis lock than on other lock types. It's just a fact.
 
Londinium Armoury said:
I have posted a video of the lock disengaging with my hand around the handle. Also what makes you guys think holding the knife with your hand actually prissing on the lock bar improves the lock up? This is not a frame lock and does not function like a frame lock. In fact having your hand touching the lock bars while exerting downward force increases the chance of the lock opening. I can't see how this isn't obvious to anybody who knows how an Axis lock knife mechanism functions. You have to pull the lock bar down to open the lock up, so of course putting pressure while your hand is moving down will open the lock even easier than doing it the way I did in the first video.
These are Benchmade Black class knives which are sold as tactical knives, which implies self defense is indeed one of the intended functions of this blade, and hard use is certainly implied in Benchmades own marketing literature on their own website.
Also this does not just apply to pommel striking people, it can also translate to slipping in hard use application, where you are cutting downwards and your hand slips and bangs into a hard surface causing the lockbar to open and blade falls on your fingers.
People have already confirmed this has happened, and they are worried that they might have an accident in the future and are now avoiding benchmade axis locks for hard use work.
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This isn't a problem. Sorry, it just isn't....
 
I'm not sure I understand the self defense reasoning for a pommel strike with a pocket knife. The handles on them are slim and small, so I can't see it doing any real damage to your opponent. Not to mention that it seems like an easy way for the blade to go in the wrong direction back into you if you hit someone incorrectly. But I'm not a knife fighter, so maybe someone who is can chime in.
 
Londinium Armoury said:
Then it seems you have less experience than I do when it comes to bladed weapons training, nobody is saying military and law enforcement fight with knives on a regular basis. But civilians do and that is where most bladed weapons based training is aimed at. These knives are not just sold or supplied at military issue knives they are sold to members of the general public marketed as tactical hard use knives which imples they are viable self defense tools. Which people even in this thread believe them to be suited for. By taking my classes do you mean running my classes? Because I run a bladed weapons based club in London now days, I am still a member of other bladed weapons based combat clubs also. I don't see how that is some kind of blemish on me as you clearly intended it to be. So you who does not train in blade based combat are attempting to belittle a person who trains in blade based martial arts, and you think this somehow is a point scored?
Yes no professional is going to use an axis lock as a fighting knife, but people int he general public have the idea that they are viable as fighting knives, even people commenting in this thread believe that. So I point out they are not viable fighting knives, and you suggest what I said is laughable, yet you have not replied tot he people saying these are good fighting knives? Doesn't add up.
So all you have shows is that you have no experience with knife fighting, yet you attempt to belittle somebody for "Training in a class" where do you want us to train techniques?
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Lol keep on keeping on bro
 
soc_monki said:
So this guy in Cali was using a bugout to cut down thick cardboard, and squeezing it hard, and felt the lock bar wiggle a little so he freaked out. For one, it's a bugout and I don't like them because they are so easy to squeeze together. I've put my Benchmades (G10 grip, super Freek, crooked rivers, contego) through plenty of cardboard and never felt the lockbar wiggle, and no worries it would close on me.

I don't ever plan to do a pommel strike, so it doesn't apply to me. I do see how it would be difficult to get that to happen as whenever I grip my Benchmades the axis bar is pretty much locked into place by the flesh of my palm. However, I think I'd rather stick them with the pointy end... And then I'm running away as fast as possible.
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That's perfectly reasonable and probably great advice, I'm just showing when the knife fails so other people can know its limits and what to avoid doing. Holding the knife under the lockbar when cutting would stop the bar from opening (Not talking pommel striking or abusive tests) But some benchmade knives you simply can't grip them below the lock bar. So for example int he knife I demonstrated with, the mini presidio II you have to hold it in a sabre grip or 3 finger grip if you want to keep your hand off the lock bar. If you use a hammer grip and get your whole hand around the knife then your fingers do rest on the lock pins. Then even worse is a pinch grip, I actually cannot hold this knife in a pinch grip on the sides of the handle, because I can so easily disengage the lock if I put pressure on it while cutting. This is also a problem with many button lock knives like my Hoge Ex-01 and my E775 Griffin, but those knives were designed with button safety locks. So you can safely use them with the pinch grip and if your hand pushes the botton while cutting then it doesn't matter the blade won't close. If button lock knives didnt have manual safety switches I would be makign the same complaint about those locks. But thankfully most designers see the risk and install safety for 80% of button locks coming out now. Some liner locks that over overly long lock bars are also dangerous and if grabbed int he wrong way can fail while doing hard cutting. But most of them are designed and tested so that your grip doesnt push it by mistake, still i've handled a few liner locks that i wouldn't feel so great using.
 
tokerblue said:
I'm not sure I understand the self defense reasoning for a pommel strike with a pocket knife. The handles on them are slim and small, so I can't see it doing any real damage to your opponent. Not to mention that it seems like an easy way for the blade to go in the wrong direction back into you if you hit someone incorrectly. But I'm not a knife fighter, so maybe someone who is can chime in.
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It might appear counter intuitive at first, just like holding a sword by the sharp blade and hitting somebody with the cross guard might seem a little strange when executing a murder stroke, but it's a valid technique that has its place, even if used in very specific situations. Many folders are designed with striking pommels on the base to be used as impact weapons, some folders would make better impact tools than others. 99% of the time it would be better to use the impact tool with the blade not being deployed but luxury and ideal situations are not what you should only train for. If your blade is already deployed prior to a situation you really don't want to fumble around closing the blade to use as an impact tool. You also might not want to use lethal force even though you have a knife in your hand. You also wouldn't really want to drop the blade during a situation. It's not all or nothing there are grey areas in between. People seem tot hink it's either 2 people fighting to the death with blades or nothing. Or you have the knife deployed so you must stab them, neither are absolutes, you can pommel strike somebody with a deployed blade. It's also possible that you are the only one with a weapon and they are not armed. If you want to see a folding knife that is designed with a striking pommel look at the Cold Steel AK-47 or the Hogue EX-02, there are plenty more. You wouldn't want to get struck with one of those trust me.
 
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Londinium Armoury said:
It might appear counter intuitive at first, just like holding a sword by the sharp blade and hitting somebody with the cross guard might seem a little strange when executing a murder stroke, but it's a valid technique that has its place, even if used in very specific situations. Many folders are designed with striking pommels on the base to be used as impact weapons, some folders would make better impact tools than others. 99% of the time it would be better to use the impact tool with the blade not being deployed but luxury and ideal situations are not what you should only train for. If your blade is already deployed prior to a situation you really don't want to fumble around closing the blade to use as an impact tool. You also might not want to use lethal force even though you have a knife in your hand. You also wouldn't really want to drop the blade during a situation. It's not all or nothing there are grey areas in between. People seem tot hink it's either 2 people fighting to the death with blades or nothing. Or you have the knife deployed so you must stab them, neither are absolutes, you can pommel strike somebody with a deployed blade. It's also possible that you are the only one with a weapon and they are not armed. If you want to see a folding knife that is designed with a striking pommel look at the Cold Steel AK-47 or the Hogue EX-02, there are plenty more. You wouldn't want to get struck with one of those trust me.
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